  Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 54 Registered: 05-2006 |
This article interested me: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 1112/SUB/711120343/1070/-/-/a- step-in-transit If they actually put in place a commuter train, where would it take me? It seems like there are no tracks downtown. Would I have to settle for New Center, and a bus transfer to downtown? That would be a bummer. Also - What are the stops? Pontiac, Birmingham, Royal Oak, then...? | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 245 Registered: 07-2007 |
The Troy transit center is on another thread. As far as commuter rail downtown, I think that's a no-go with the conversion of the Dequindre Cut. I don't know the rail lines into the city to even know what's possible but I believe that was the old SEMTA route. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1465 Registered: 02-2006 |
Hypothetical, and doesn't address trackage rights, etc, but you COULD route the trains from the line along Woodwardish/I-75 through New Center, around to the MC station, and then build a bit of new track to the JLA garage, as has been discussed previously.  | ||
Rugbyman Member Username: Rugbyman Post Number: 156 Registered: 06-2005 |
Doesn't the line go underground at Bagley? How would they resurface along the riverfront to get to the JLA structure? | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1869 Registered: 05-2005 |
the line does go underground just south of bagely, but right of way essentially exists above the tunnel all the way to jefferson http://maps.google.com/maps?ie =UTF8&ll=42.32308,-83.066854&s pn=0.007282,0.013475&t=h&z=16& om=1 | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1468 Registered: 02-2006 |
Yes, the tracks disappear, but the ROW exists. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 324 Registered: 08-2006 |
how about routing it through the remaining ROW in the Dequindre Cut, after putting the walking path through. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1470 Registered: 02-2006 |
Yeah, that's a great idea, a walking path a few feet away from active train tracks, sunk in the ground, with no means to escape. ;) | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 326 Registered: 08-2006 |
good point. I heard at some time that the Dequindre Cut was being looked at as a future mass transitway. Probably light rail or trolley would be better there. | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 961 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, let's run this up the flagpole and see if anyone tries to burn it.... For years, the DSR used to meet Grand Trunk commuter trains at Milwaukee Junction and bus people from there into the New Center area in the morning, and reverse the move for the evening rush. Seeing as it's only about 4 miles from New Center to Downtown, couldn't you do the same thing? The ride would be a bit longer, but still..... | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1930 Registered: 04-2005 |
There's a GTW timetable listing all the stops on Detroit-Pontiac line in the Detroit's 2nd Train Station thread in the Hall of fame section. Near the end of the last page, I think. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3725 Registered: 10-2003 |
The biggest problem with trying to get commuter rail all the way into the CBD is that you'd need real estate for all the stub tracks at the terminal, yards, and maintenance facilities. Unless MCS is completely rehabilitated to serve such a purpose (ha!), Milwaukee Junction is about as close as you'll get. Then again, is it really necessary for commuter trains to get all the way into the CBD? If you look at New York, DC, and Boston, in particular, many commuter rail riders transfer to local rail in order to reach their final destination. In Detroit, I imagine this would take the form of light rail down Woodward. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 740 Registered: 07-2004 |
Just build a tunnel. The Central Detroit Commuter rail tunnel under Woodward Ave, from New Centre to Downtown Detroit. | ||
Hamtragedy Member Username: Hamtragedy Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2007 |
Widen the Dequindre Cut from eastern market, where it first goes below grade. South of gratiot, just cut into St. Aubin, which at that point is a blvd. At the north end of the Cut, just norhtwest of the poletown plant, have a transfer station that will take you west, north, and north east on tracks that already exist. "Next stop Hamtramck. Transfer to red, blue and green lines". Simple. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3992 Registered: 02-2005 |
Great idea. Honestly how wide does St. Aubin need to be? | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5601 Registered: 11-2003 |
Start in Pontiac and put in a Subway under Woodward Avenue, the spine of Detroit. When you have to retrofit something large, you need large plans. Forget any existing rights of way, and just dig in a corridor. If you build it, they will come. There are just a few models: Salt Lake City, New York City Boston Seattle Portland Los Angeles Miami Atlanta Philadelphia Cleveland, G-d forbid. Toronto Montreal Vancouver Edmonton Chicago SF BART. Choose one and start digging. jjaba, Westsider. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 327 Registered: 08-2006 |
If the People Mover were extended up to New Center this would make an easy transfer line. The commuter rail would ride into New Center and you'd hop on the PM extension to get downtown. I'm still hoping for a PM extension loop: up John R, across Grand Boulevard, down Cass/Second. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3726 Registered: 10-2003 |
Tunneling is muy expensive, kids! | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 328 Registered: 08-2006 |
Expensive, no kidding. Estimates for the new Purple Line in LA - under Wilshire Ave. from Western Ave. to the beach in Santa Monica, or 12.5 miles - are upwards of $350 million per mile. Pontiac is 24.8 miles away from Detroit along Woodward... | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 247 Registered: 07-2007 |
Doesn't Woodward have enough right of way for both light rail and sufficient traffic lanes for the volume of traffic that it carries? | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 376 Registered: 12-2006 |
GsGeorge, I think it would be a bit cheaper in Detroit, because, if I recall, overall building material prices are cheaper in Michigan than in California. Also, a 24 mile subway is a bit much. I would settle for a 4 mile subway from New Center to Downtown. a great spot to have the central hub for a downtown subway system would be under Hart Plaza. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1476 Registered: 02-2006 |
Novine, absolutely. The traffic volume of Woodward is under 40,000 cars per day at all points within the City of Detroit. 40,000 cars per day for 8 lanes. 40,000 can easily be served by 4 lanes, but 6 will do nicely. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 329 Registered: 08-2006 |
ah, forget subway. 1) Light rail along the radial roads (Woodward, Michigan, Gratiot, Grand River, Jefferson); connector loop along Grand Blvd; the lines could go below-grade (subway) before they cross the freeway loop around the CBD; hub at Hart Plaza. 2) Extend the People mover up to New Center via Brush/Beaubian/John R, Grand Blvd, 2nd/3rd/Cass. Transfer stations wherever the PM crosses light rail. 3) Finally, commuter rail coming in to MCS from Ann Arbor, Pontiac, and Mt. Clemens, with connections along the way: Metro Airport, Dearborn; Birmingham, Ferndale; Macomb CC/St. Clair Shores, 8mile/The Pointes. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 383 Registered: 06-2007 |
Subway doesn't necessary mean tunneling. Technically, you could trench out Woodward and cover it back up. Granted, I'm not a civil engineer but isn't that how much of New York's original subway was made? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2186 Registered: 04-2006 |
Having lived next to an elevated train track for a short while, those things can be very loud when they are above ground. It's probably best to put as much of it underground as possible... | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 331 Registered: 08-2006 |
the "Cut and cover" method, as described by Umcs, can also be costly and disruptive. Light rail is quiet, and the People Mover really isn't too bad either in terms of noise. The El in Chicago is noisy because it's heavy rail. Underground is nice, and ideal, but its costly and unnecessary for a city like Detroit, which has wide boulevards and ample room for at-grade tracks. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 250 Registered: 07-2007 |
I don't understand the subway concept either? Where in Detroit is real estate so prime that it would justify going underground except maybe accessing the RenCen? Otherwise, wouldn't you just dedicate an existing street right-of-way to aboveground transit and work around it as far as car and pedestrian traffic? We're not in NYC folks. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1149 Registered: 04-2005 |
a question about grade-level tracks: if a train ran on woodward, how would traffic be regulated on east-west roads? and, how long would the train be? an engine, and four cars, perhaps, at 40-50 feet long each? i have no idea, i'm just guessing. finally, what would be the top speed of such a train? | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 384 Registered: 06-2007 |
I did some further "digging" on the cut and cover method and it seems that it's only cost prohibitive in instances where you have bedrock. I'm not sure how much bedrock exists between Pontiac and Detroit but... I'm fairly sure it's not the same amount as was found on Manhattan. I'd agree that a "subway" system isn't absolutely necessary for Detroit but I'd hazard a guess that too much interference with local traffic flows on the main thoroughfares (like Woodward) would garner some unneeded opposition. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 332 Registered: 08-2006 |
Light rail along major roads is less complicated than one would think. There are plenty of real-world examples, on every continent, and each system seems to work fine. Portland, Jersey City, and Adelaide, Australia all have Light Rail running down the middle of roads. Lights are timed so that train cars can pass without being impeded by traffic. If there is something in the way, light rail can stop pretty quickly. They would move down the medians. Trains can pass through intersections fairly quickly, especially if they are only four cars long; something like 10-15 seconds. Not the best source, but Wikipedia says: If run in streets, light rail systems are limited by city block lengths to about four 180-passenger vehicles (720 passengers). Operating on 2 minute headways using traffic signal progression, a well-designed system can handle more than 30 trains per hour, achieving peak rates of over 20,000 passengers per hour per track. More advanced systems with separate rights-of-way using moving block signaling can exceed 25,000 passengers per hour per track. [17] |
