 
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 211
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 9:13 am: |    |
Detroit -
Highest foreclosures
High unemployment
High murder rate
Distinction of being the most dangerous City in the U.S. =
55 Million Dollar Profit at the casino.
Something is wrong with this picture. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2792
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 9:16 am: | |
mmm...don't know if you can say something is wrong or not...we really don't have a grand opening of an $800 million casino to compare it to back when foreclosures and unemployments were lower...
if the local economy was in better shape they might have made $70 million...who knows
(Message edited by thejesus on November 20, 2007) |
Downtown_dave
Member
Username: Downtown_dave
Post Number: 218
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 9:38 am: | |
"Wrong" may not be the right word. Casinos are here - get used to 'em. There are spin-off benefits as well as social detriments. It's all been discussed here before.
It's interesting to see that these were not profits or market share "pulled" from the other casinos, but new money - no doubt a curiosity factor - that contributed to MGM's profits. Time will tell whether MGM can sustain this gain.
In the meantime, this area will continue to struggle with foreclosures, unemployment and crime - all part of life. How much of this was caused by casinos will no doubt be debated endlessly here.
I'm just happy that people are coming to where these place have located. The infrastructure has improved, sidewalks and lighting added, streets are kept clean and a little "energy" has returned to our city. And, you can choose or not choose to participate. |
Bobj
Member
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 2895
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 9:50 am: | |
People will spend their money on entertainment no matter what their situation is - casinos, lottery - all entertainment |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10823
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 9:56 am: | |
Foreclosures and gambling, for many, go hand in hand. Stupid decisions and spending money they don't have. |
Rjk
Member
Username: Rjk
Post Number: 953
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 10:02 am: | |
It's kind of like the saying that there's always room for dessert. People will do fun things or at least what appears to be fun regardless of whether it's good for their bottom line or not. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3727
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 10:03 am: | |
I have a hard time scraping up the sympathy for someone who is at the casino gambling the little money they have, while their family struggles at home to make ends meet. Then we are asked to view them as the victim of the evil casinos. |
Bobj
Member
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 2902
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 10:10 am: | |
It is escaping reality for a little while in the hopes of winning big money |
Gambling_man
Member
Username: Gambling_man
Post Number: 1027
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 10:23 am: | |
For All: For the Last time, 56 Million in Gross Gaming REVENUE in no way equates to 56 million in PROFIT. Not even remotely close....... |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 212
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 10:29 am: | |
The casinos are the "big winners"!
Excessive gambling is an addiction, just like smoking or drinking or drugging. The hope of winning big to cover bills is slim to none.
"The infrastructure has improved, sidewalks and lighting added, streets are kept clean and a little "energy" has returned to our city."
That's a great start to revitalize the City, but it stops immediately around the casinos. It does not extend beyond what you "see", like the neighborhoods that surround the casinos and beyond. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10824
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 10:39 am: | |
The casinos are a business and people can choose to go to that business or not. While they may not be constructing around them it appears to me that for downtown/midtown entertainment destinations the casinos may help spur development in the area.
While the spin off isn't great there is some spin off business and a great deal of tax revenue going to the state and the city.
I don't spend my money at the casinos but if you are going to condemn casinos because they may cause financial/family issues then you have to condemn bars for the alcoholism that ruins many, many families.
My money won't go to the casinos but I am happy they are here. If people need to make better choices that is there issue whether it be a gambling addiction, drinking/drug addiction, shopping addiction, etc. |
Arrogancy
Member
Username: Arrogancy
Post Number: 25
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 4:08 pm: | |
I used to be a regular at certain casinos as a semi pro poker player, and observed the poker/blackjack/etc. crowds daily, and most of the people playing obviously aren't from the "inner city" that the first post is applying to, so what seems to be the issue here? |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1100
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 6:16 pm: | |
For those who argue that there is no spin-off benefit to the Casinos, I would ask:
What does the city haul in for taxes from each site?
What does the State haul in?
How many people in this area are employed in jobs that the city nips an additional 2% from?
How much work in construction is being done?
Now with MGM, you add in the big rollers from out of town that are incentivized with hotel stays at a hotel / restaurant complex employing locals..
it goes on and on... the impact is huge.
Ponder Detroit's budget crisis and then take away the Casino revenue. Now how many more 5th precincts are boarded up?
I just flew back from Vegas (on business completely unrelated to gaming, although I did play the $10 blackjack tables and check out the fountains at the Bellagio for a bit). The ongoing construction would make anybody that has followed this site drool!
Our MGM Grand is but a small footprint of any of the monsters out there... and they just keep growing.
Say thank you to our casinos as you would to every other business in the city. Then say to yourself, how can we help this and other entertainment opportunities expand in the Detroit/Windsor urban core.
How do we make it more inviting, more easy and more profitable for these operations to expand here?
You want to see new buildings on Woodward and continue to watch the cranes rise with new opportunities? Then think of how to welcome more businesses to this city. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 448
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 6:49 pm: | |
Why must we hate people who make money?
Is it jealousy? Is it feeling like everyone gets "screwed?"
Total BS. The casinos pay higher taxes, provide a lot of DETROIT jobs, donate to charities, and a good deal of spin-off business.
There are negative effects - no doubt. But they're here now and are not going anywhere. That ain't changing, and in fact, their mere presence has revitalized the hopes for tourism (I know this first hand from work) as well as been a part of the turnaround. To give you an idea, the three casinos spend more on pro-Detroit tourism advertising in other cities than anyone else in the entire market, including the governments and quasi-governmentals like the DMCVB. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2233
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 7:04 pm: | |
MGMs (or anyone elses) revenues have little to do with the foreclosure crisis. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 783
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 7:17 pm: | |
WHAT DRIVES THE CASINOS, DRIVES AMERICA! |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1624
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 7:44 pm: | |
Avarice, desperation, and false hopes?
Hhmm. You may have a good point, there. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 213
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 11:21 pm: | |
Detroitrise, do I note a hint of sarcasm or did you just get it wrong?
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
Too bad there aren't more auto factories in Detroit where people can make a decent living instead of throwing what money they do have away at the casinos. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 12:00 pm: | |
BuyAmerican,
We are in a knowledge based economy. Anyone that goes to school and does well should have plenty of opportunity to do well in the real world.
Can they show up without an education and expect to make a high level of income and buy a cabin up north? No. Deal with it.
Wake up, educate your kid and quit dreaming about a past that will do nothing for you.
By the way, we no longer live in an agrarian society either. |
Ray1936
Member
Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 2281
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
Yeah, I gave up hunting and gathering when I retired. Now I go to casinos. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 370
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 1:25 pm: | |
Casinos produce nothing. They do not create wealth, they just move it around and a good chunk of that ends up back in Vegas with the casino owners. Not a very good thing to base an economy on. |
Bobj
Member
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 2993
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 1:28 pm: | |
I am no fan of casinos/lotto, etc - but the casinos do provide jobs in an economy where jobs are few and far between - at least in this neck of the woods |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5781
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 1:49 pm: | |
Last time I checked only MGM Grand money leaves the state. And 800 million of that is going to pay off the construction of their massive casino.
Just be glad all those construction jobs are here right now.
And be glad for those dozens of buses that come here every day from Ohio and Indiana, full of OUT OF STATE casino patrons. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 372
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 2:29 pm: | |
Draining money from Ohio and Indiana instead of PRODUCING something. Again, how do casinos produce wealth instead of shifting it around?
What do they contribute to the economy of the US as a whole? You cannot have an economy based on entertainment! Imagine if the entire US was a giant casino. How long would our economy last?
The construction job are only a byproduct of the casinos and will be gone once the casino is built. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5786
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 2:55 pm: | |
Nainrouge... that was not one of your best posts... what would you call the economy of central Florida around Orlando... I would call it a THRIVING area of the country whose economy is based on ENTERTAINMENT...  |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1105
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 3:06 pm: | |
Nainrouge, your argument is absurd.
How does a movie ticket produce wealth? How does a coney dog produce wealth? (They both do by employing people who then use that money to invest or purchase other goods, they supply tax funds to assist in the infrastructure of our fair city and state, bla, bla bla).
Money is brought to this city big time and invested and reinvested thanks to our friendly casinos...repeat after me..."We love our casinos" |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 374
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 6:54 pm: | |
Nope, sorry. Where does the money come from that is spent on entertainment?
Wealth is produced by taking something of lesser value (like say, steel and plastic) and turning it into something of greater value (say a car).
If the people producing goods choose to flush the money that they earn at the casinos, that is their choice - but casinos DO NOT PRODUCE WEALTH. Get it?
Sure the casinos create jobs and bring money into the area, but they are just redistributing wealth. You cannot base an economy on it.
If the economic downturn worsens, what do you think people will cut out first?
and no, I don't love our casinos.... |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1106
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 7:30 pm: | |
What planet do you live on?
Your assumption that wealth is only produced by manufacturing is basically an interesting little myth swirling around in your head.
Wealth is created by providing something of value, in the casino's case, entertainment and selling it at a profit.
It is very easy to see that as I walked out of Bellagio $20 down the other night, minus the gratis glass of Chardonnay and the live entertainment, I had huge value for the time I spent and enjoyed myself immensely.
The casino, on the other hand, made money as by its nature, the facility will have more folks down (a very small percent actually) than up. They also had a variable cost on that $20 revenue that I supplied them of the base glass of wine... the rest arrives as a gross profit ...very nice (I'm sure that gambling man will correct me if I am assuming an accounting principal like EBITDA or something else incorrectly).
Now the poor schlepp who bought a new automobile (and I hate to use this analogy but clearly it is where our Rougian friend's head is) on that same day and drove home was taken to the cleaners as he arrived with a steel item that had already lost several thousand dollars of value as it left the lot and would spend the rest of its capitalized existence depreciating....essentially creating the opposite of wealth for our friend.
At the same time, the manufacturing company that created the car was operating at a gross profit on that vehicle of 2% or less (quite possibly a loss) causing further erosion of wealth for its shareholders, employees, laid-off employees, suppliers, bankrupt suppliers and the like).
Only one of these examples is creating wealth... and it’s not the one that our friend used as the example.
Now repeat after me, "I am sorry that I said bad things about you casinos because I can't think outside the box...you're the best!"
Happy Thanksgiving! |
Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 3873
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 9:41 pm: | |
Throughout U.S. history the public's tolerance of gambling has come and gone.
Let's hope any near-term benefits of casinos can be wisely leveraged into long-term benefits for Detroit's recovery, whether in manufacturing or anything else more sustainable than gambling.
Now may be a good time to reap the rewards from gambling but look for the next market because gambling won't last forever. |
Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd
Post Number: 943
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 10:36 pm: | |
quote:Sure the casinos create jobs and bring money into the area, but they are just redistributing wealth. You cannot base an economy on it.
Detroit only has three casinos. They are an addition to the local economy, not the basis of it. |
Detroitej72
Member
Username: Detroitej72
Post Number: 644
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 12:45 am: | |
"WHAT DRIVES THE CASINOS, DRIVES AMERICA!"
BuyAmerica, that's the joke:
MONEY DRIVES THE CASINOS, MONEY DRIVES AMERICA!•• |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 915
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 1:32 am: | |
Gambling will absolutely ask forever. Any business based on suckers and addiction is guaranteed to succeed.
Detroit brought in casinos to give itself an entertainment aura, which is working, undeniably. Are suckers losing rent money? Hell yes. Is a casino in an economically depressed working-class city a double-edged sword? Exactically, as Sonny Eliot might say.
I was opposed to the idea of the casinos, but now that they've been here for a while and are building the "permanent" facilities, I have to admit on the whole for the City it's a benefit. For the suckers, of course, it's a disaster. Sorry, suckers, I don't know what to tell you.
By the way, some of you don't seem to understand what an economy is. It is nothing but people choosing to move money around. If everyone in America decided to hold onto all their money - put it into savings - the entire national economy would collapse. It is the fact of us spending money that makes any kind of economy whatsoever, whether we choose to spend it on food, housing or slot machines.
If you want to end the local recession right now, go buy a house, or a car, or dinner, or put $20 on a card game at MGM. That's all it takes: all five million of us doing that. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 375
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 10:12 am: | |
This conversation reminds me of the book "Amusing ourselves to death". Anyone read it?
Professor Scott - I take it you are not an economics professor. Moving money around does not make an economy if goods are not being produced. That is my point. Wealth (not money-making) is defined as the accumulation of resources. What resources do casinos create, pray tell?
Professor - you say that some of us don't seem to understand what an economy is- can you give us a lesson on the three sectors of the economy and how that relates to "nothing but moving money around"? It seems in my basic economics course that we defined an economy as the PRODUCTION, distribution, exchange, and consumption of goods and services. Have they now changed the definition to "moving money around"? Have the three sectors of the economy now been reduced to one? Sad state of education....
Mafia, you arguments are almost too laughable to address. You are saying that the automobile industry, which drives the economy of the state and which provides a basic human need of transportation is worth less than your entertainment for the night? Seriously? Do you understand basic economic principals? Can you distinguish the difference between wealth and profit? Ever hear of macroeconomics? Ah, forget it - like throwing pearls before swine. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1108
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 12:18 pm: | |
Rouge,
Go back to your Econ101 professor, share this conversation with him/her (print it, don't try to recite it from your memory), explain to him/her that you are challenged by the need to speak when you should be listening. Further explain that you don't understand what "PRODUCTION, distribution, exchange, and consumption of goods and SERVICES" means and you need his/her assistance before you fail the class.
Perhaps the professor will take pity on you and educate you. It is also possible that this professor may just think that you have been an annoying blowhard all term and let you sink in your own bile. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 378
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 4:29 pm: | |
Nah, I got an "A" in that class already, you?
Oh, I forgot. Mafiosi don't need education. They get by with threats and insults. Doesn't work well on an anonymous bulletin board though.
Services are just the tertiary sector of the economy, but why do I bother explaining. Nevermind, go blow your money at the casino and live in the ignorant bliss of assuming that the money that you are spending on your chardonnay is somehow helping the local economy more than the auto industry. Oh, was that California wine? So sorry. Although I guess you might have helped the poor schmuck who served it to you make a few pennies. Maybe we should start teaching Black Jack in Detroit high schools now so that the students can be ready for the new "irish mafia" economy?
Now repeat after me, "I will educate myself before spewing unintelligible bilge on public bulletin boards"... |
Softailrider
Member
Username: Softailrider
Post Number: 91
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 4:46 pm: | |
It's really very simple - People around here love to gamble . Gambling spot per gambling spot , these casinos probably make MORE then their Vegas counterparts . |
Ray1936
Member
Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 2286
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 5:37 pm: | |
"Maybe we should start teaching Black Jack in Detroit high schools"
The game is called "21". Only yokels call it blackjack. And an ace and a face card is not properly called a blackjack either, it's a "natural".
Those who wish to speak gaming must learn the proper terminology. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 379
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 8:07 pm: | |
I will gladly remain uneducated in the finer arts of losing my money. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 826
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 8:19 pm: | |
"I will gladly remain uneducated in the finer arts of losing my money."
What's there to know? Just add taxes and inflation and your outcome will be a loss of money. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1109
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 9:50 am: | |
"I will gladly remain uneducated"
That's clear. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 381
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 11:14 am: | |
Sounds like someone ran out of rational arguments... |