  Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3727 Registered: 10-2003 |
I imagine any kind of light rail in Detroit would be similar to the Green Line T in Boston. You'd have consists of up to two cars, operating at grade with lateral separation from traffic, and gates at intersections. Power would be by means of overhead catenary. With appropriate stations, you would be able to enact fare prepayment, quickly speeding the boarding process. Detroit is founded upon lacustrine soils--clays and silts. No need to worry about bedrock. | ||
Fjw718 Member Username: Fjw718 Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2005 |
i think the quote on tunneling is something near 1 billion per mile...... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3728 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Tunnelling costs depend on the substrate, i.e. bedrock is tougher and requires more specialized equipment. Check out news stories on the LIRR East Side Access Project, which will run LIRR trains into Grand Central. The $1 billion/mile seems way high. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1205 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gsgeorge wrote, "El in Chicago is noisy because it's heavy rail." Any two-rail system, whether heavy or light rail, will be equally noisy when aboveground on an open framework. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4604 Registered: 10-2004 |
No rapid transit system for Detroit will be installed until there's a proved need for it evidenced by actual DDOT and SMART ridership figures. Without that, there will be no trains outside of any possible demonstrations of commuter rail. Some may talk up pipe-dream routes and such, but be advised that it's money that talks and BS that walks. There ain't no money for capital costs or annual operating expenses for duplicating rail, where the bus systems running along those routes aren't even close to their possible capacities. And only a pitiful 2% use public transportation to get to/from work in the tri-county Detroit area. Trying to get the money from the 98% who don't and won't ride is the biggest stumbling block for rail transit that won't be overcome anytime during the next few decades. | ||
Malcovemagnesia Member Username: Malcovemagnesia Post Number: 53 Registered: 12-2005 |
maybe somebody could pass out "taking a train would be faster/cheaper/less stressful than driving" brochures to the 98% of commuters stuck on I-75, I-94 and the Lodge during daily rush hours? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4605 Registered: 10-2004 |
Ain't it strange that those stuck commuters aren't demanding rapid transit? I've been on most or maybe all of those rush-hour traffic snarls and am aware that they are very minor compared with those in the cities that actually have and are taking care of business. Detroit would just love those kinds of problems compared to what it has now... Nobody likes them, but they are quite brief and are somewhat restricted to a few locations. I found that going on "surface" streets before and after those predictable freeway snarls almost always worked. The surface streets are essentially deserted. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 15, 2007) | ||
Cabasse Member Username: Cabasse Post Number: 69 Registered: 01-2006 |
aww, yard can't piss in the quicken thread now so he has to debbie in transit threads. as more people like you die off, detroit's progress will hasten. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 692 Registered: 09-2007 |
Tell them Cabasse. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 693 Registered: 09-2007 |
"Nobody likes them, but they are quite brief and are somewhat restricted to a few locations. I found that going on "surface" streets before and after those predictable freeway snarls almost always worked. The surface streets are essentially deserted." I do agree with this. That what makes Detroit's Street Grid so nice. You can take Surface Streets to anywhere from everywhere. (Message edited by DetroitRise on November 15, 2007) | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 55 Registered: 05-2006 |
Ahem. Here's at least one stuck commuter who is demanding rapid transit. Apparently, I must be the only one. | ||
Malcovemagnesia Member Username: Malcovemagnesia Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2005 |
I've been on DetroitYes a little while but I still can't figure out where Yard's bias against commuter rail comes from. Out in San Francisco where I'm working for now, I get around very easily not owning a car. For short hops I'm very accustomed to buses, but for longer trips commuter rail is the most flexible, convenient and inexpensive option. For my home region of Detroit, I couldn't imagine anyone tolerating any SMART bus ride (stop & go at every traffic light and bus stop every 1/4 mile) between Detroit and Sterling Heights, Northville, Plymouth, etc. Commuter rail into and out of the city can easily happen -- the rail lines are already there. If Detroiters only knew what they were missing. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 338 Registered: 08-2006 |
I've been on DetroitYes a little while now and I can't figure out LYard's bias against ANYTHING. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3730 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I'm wondering when you were on the side of the road conducting a survey. I know I certainly never enjoyed those traffic jams, especially when it took 2 hours to get home in a snowstorm. Frankly, one of the reasons I left is because I didn't want to have to drive everywhere and sit in traffic every damned day. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 256 Registered: 07-2007 |
As much as I support more transit options, I don't think LY is too far off in his assessment of attitudes in SE Michigan about transit. A lot of people are not going to take transit no matter how convenient you make it for them for whatever reasons or excuses they have. He's also right that a lot of them won't support a SMART millage or "wasting" money on transit since they don't see it as benefiting them personally. But I think he understates the level of interest among some people for options other than driving a car everywhere and he overestimates the amount of time it will take to get something more than what we have in place. I look at it this way, in the early 1900s if I lived in Novi, to get to Detroit I could have taken a train, the interurban or the least desirable alternative, driven a car (if I owned one). I have to think that sometime in the next 30 years, I'll get at least one more option than driving a car. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3731 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Well, you can't really make that assessment if transit is virtually nonexistent. quote: Interestingly enough, the outcomes of virtually every SMART millage proposal contradict you. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4610 Registered: 10-2004 |
Fact: Fewer than 2% of workers (2004 data) in the tri-county Detroit region of over 4 1/2 million use any form of public transportation to get to/from work. And yet, where's the outcries and demands for rapid transit? A small number on DY are shrill shills for rapid transit, yet at the same time, they say they want mass transit--something they already have in the form of SMART. Most of those bitchers don't even seem to know the difference between mass or rapid transit. If they cannot seem to grasp common terminology, how can one expect them to really understand what each of them entails? One thing for sure: Detroit is broke and needs to borrow at the end of its fiscal year to continue until the next, and already is over $2 billion in bonded debt and its mayor publicly stated that he would like to borrow one to two extra billions of bonded debt, just for his pet projects, of which rail is not at the top. To the nearest percentage point, only 1% of Oakland County (one of the wealthiest counties in the entire US) uses public transportation for access to work and Macomb County's figure is zero percent. So, the only way to get the residents of those two counties to pay for rapid transit is through the arms of a socialist state. They just do not want regional rapid transit. If anybody thinks otherwise, ask them. And while you're at it, ask the residents in Wayne County and Detroit. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 386 Registered: 06-2007 |
After filling up my car for about $50 this morning and sitting in traffic on the "expressway," I would consider myself one of the commuters who would prefer mass transit. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3732 Registered: 10-2003 |
Livernoisyard likes to ignore facts: SOURCE: http://www.mlui.org/transporta tion/fullarticle.asp?fileid=17 081 quote: And that's for the existing crappy bus system. Imagine the level of support if there were actually a GOOD transit system in Detroit. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4612 Registered: 10-2004 |
Notice how DDC--our socialist correspondent from the DC bureau--is cherry-picking again. Here, in this post, he supports SEMCOG, a governmental agency. In other posts he'll bad mouth SEMCOG. So much for consistency... BTW, SEMCOG studied nine other options in lieu of DDC's choice--rapid transit. And those in Oakland County who approved the extension of the tax millage for SMART was in a very low-turnout summer election--probably stacked by proponents of SMART who decided to vote for it. In any event, the millage was small peanuts compared to a comparable rapid-transit millage, which probably would be shot down big-time. As mentioned before, some two weeks ago, Wayne County voted down, by 60 to 40%, a millage increase for the Wayne County Community College (WCCC), which ironically is situated right atop the vacancy left by the former Fort Street Union Depot (FSUD). Had rapid transit millage also been on that ballot, it too would have been shot down in Wayne County (and elsewhere), I'll bet. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on November 16, 2007) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3734 Registered: 10-2003 |
It's hard debating with the illiterate, especially when the written word is the medium. quote: I've read that report, so I know what options were considered. Have YOU? quote: So we're to understand that your personal opinion and rampant speculation have more meaning than actual voting outcomes and trends? quote: Do you know the meaning of the term "relevant"? | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5605 Registered: 11-2003 |
gsgeorge gives us a good look at light rail. In Portland, Oregon, the light rail uses several configurations. Some track is laid in the center of Interstate highway. (I-205), ((I-84) All downtown tracks are on regular streets, integrated into the urban fabric, by design. Some track in suburbs is like an interurban right of way, separated, with some tunnels at busy streets. Yet, the stations are at ground level. The Washington Park station is the deepest tunnel in N. America since it below a mountain. Some track goes up Interstate Avenue, the old highway North and South. This Yellow line has been a boon to new investment and gentrification. All light rail MAX trains are run with a single motorman, no conductor. Riders are on honor system, 50% of whom ride with monthly passes. There is a generous downtown "FARELESS SQUARE" for short rides in central city. The system has about 4 Fare Inspectors who can issue severe fines, but since 1984, they've only been seen once or twice. jjaba. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 257 Registered: 07-2007 |
Danindc, save the sarcasm. I've ridden just about transit option in the DC area including getting myself out to Tysons Corner from downtown DC without a car. I'm not the enemy. But if you think people in this end of OC are big transit fans, that's just not the case. They also don't want to pay which is why Novi opted out of SMART. I'm not speaking for everyone in SE Michigan. But there's a lot of people who have reasons, most of which I don't agree with, who won't support transit with their feet or their wallets. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 343 Registered: 08-2006 |
Jjaba, interesting about the "Fareless Square"--if Detroit had a light rail system, maybe making it fareless in the CBD would increase ridership on the system overall. Good way to jump-start interest in the system if our car culture is averse to the idea of using public transit. (Message edited by gsgeorge on November 16, 2007) | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5609 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gsgrorge, FARELESS SQUARE" is a great concept. In Portland, it even allows downtown riders to go across the Willamette River to Lloyd Center on the Eastside to eat, shop, or run errands at Portland's "second" downtown. The downside of the concept is that homeless people ride the trains to warm up on cold and wet days. Trains can get gamey when this happens. The Rose Garden, Memorial Colleseum, and the Convention Center are also in the FARELESS SQUARE, enabling those passengers to ride from downtown hotels for free also. Detroit's People mover should have been FARELESS so people can move around downtown for errands and lunch, ease of parking, etc. jjaba, Proudly Westside. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 306 Registered: 02-2006 |
For all of you who continually raise this subject on the forum, I have put the following on my word processor so I don't have to write it each time another hairbrained and unworkable idea is hatched. I respect Danindc and his extensive knowledge of transit systems and their value. This area will NOT have rapid transit for two overpowering reasons. 1. Federal funds are a must for any rail system and the Feds will not appropriate any money to the political clowns of Michigan (Granholm, Stabinow, etc. in the state, and the City of Detroit politicos doesn't even warrant names to chuckle over their incompetence). Senator Carl Levin is the exception to this as he is widely respected by both parties. No fed money = no mass rail transit of any sort. 2. No one will ride in a public transit system in Detroit because of CRIME. Everyone wants to get where they are going safely. The lenient judges and juries of Detroit preclude this. Rail transit coming to this area is as likely as steam locomotives running down the center of Woodward. End of story. | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 227 Registered: 05-2006 |
River_Rat, are you the transportation czar for the United States? | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 307 Registered: 02-2006 |
Closer than you think, Hans57 | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5612 Registered: 11-2003 |
River rat tells it like it tis. But River rat, transit systems operate in really scary places like Chicago, New York, Miami, and Philadelphia too. Explain yourself. jjaba, Cranking up his steel-plated Hummer with tinted windows and locked doors. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 308 Registered: 02-2006 |
Jjabba, the answer is simple. The cities you mention have very strong political leadership(Mayors Daley & Bloomberg)and very good law enforcement on transit systems. Philly under Sweet and Nutter are somewhat different and my dissertation on this subject would be too lengthy for this forum. Miami's rail system is very well policed and is successful on that count. Probably the best system of all is Danindc's home system, Washington Metro rail. If memory serves me correctly, there have been three or four fatal criminal acts on the Metro in THIRTY years! Having been in all your named places in the last year for varying time periods Jjaba, there is no doubt that there are scary places in each venue, but, not to the degree and consistency of our beloved forum subject. I stand by my reasons there won't be any steam locomotives on Woodward soon. Keep your tinted windows up and your heater on. Your side that is. |
