Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » Downtown Detroit: A thriving entertainment destination « Previous Next »
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 828
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is an exciting time for downtown. With rumors about national retailers, more big announcements, people mover expansions, etc.

What markets do you think downtown can "tap" to draw in people to eat, gamble, and play downtown? I know that people in cities 2-3 hours from Chicago are drawn to that city for all it's entertainment options. How far is too far for Detroit to advertise itself and expand it's reach into other local economies? I'm thinking we could reach out to Toledo, London, Ontario, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Flint, the tri cities (Bay City, Saginaw, Midland), Ann Arbor, Jackson, Battle Creek. Possibly even Cleveland!

I think Toronto is the major destination for Londoners, and Chicago for those in Grand Rapids. But as downtown rises, can we compete with those cities with our own unique appeal? Can anyone share anecdotal experiences with people in mid sized Michigan cities frequenting the D for travel and entertainment? What cities would you add that we could influence? What cities that I listed are unrealistic in attracting tourists.

Discuss.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 4066
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All of the above and more. Honestly, I think the further away you get from metro Detroit, the more captive your audience is. The more Detroit gets talked about and written about in NYC, Boston, and Chicago, we'll be, because those cities each have a certain percentage of people who are interested in visiting other cities because they love cities in general. They'd come to Detroit. Let's not forget that many Detroit transplants are in each of these places.
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 563
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm very optimistic about Downtown Detroit's future. It has more to offer than most "BIG" cities but still lacks certain basic services of others.

We always say give Detroit another 10 years, but I think it is already there.

With more marketing Detroit could easily snag people from Toronto and Chicago.

Detroit needs to really focus on its neighborhoods. They are still in shambles.

<313>
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2264
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Detroit's infrastructure is in shambles. That's what is really holding it back.

I think the music scene and the casinos are something that is most unique to Detroit, in terms of attracting outside interest.
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 564
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm very optimistic about Downtown Detroit's future. It has more to offer than most "BIG" cities but still lacks certain basic services of others.

We always say give Detroit another 10 years, but I think it is already there.

With more marketing Detroit could easily snag people from Toronto and Chicago.

Detroit needs to really focus on its neighborhoods. They are still in shambles.

<313>
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Texorama
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Username: Texorama

Post Number: 108
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that the music scene is unique, and I think it's undermarketed. We have excellent offerings of rock, electronic dance music, jazz, classical music, hip-hop, older styles of African-American music, even a certain churlish strain of alternative country. People outside Detroit are aware that Detroit has these things, but they don't know quite where to look for them, so they go to Cleveland and go to the House of Blues instead. People will travel for unusual music--go to the Ark in Ann Arbor on a good night and look at the mailing list signup to see where people come from. Other great musical cities--Nashville, Memphis, New Orleans, even Kansas City--have done a much better job of capitalizing on the music they have produced that people know. Sure, the cutting edge is always going to be a little bit underground, but that still leaves an awful lot of music.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 11004
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to move along with an idea I've got to promote Detroit as Music City North, as an entertainment city similar to Austin, Texas.

I've talked with more than a few bar owners, and they all seem eager to investigate a plan to promote a shared cover charge and shuttle bus service to the city hotels and bed/breakfasts so that music lovers can wander about at will to the various locations that should all be playing live music.


There are many hindrances and risks in promoting concerts, but if and when it is a collective those are all shared. Surely there are hindrances and obstacles in every endeavor, they are NOT stopping points, merely items to be dealt with and beaten if possible.


We've GOT the talent, we've got the 'mojo' throughout at least three or four generations of development...and most certainly we've got the world's attention as artists 'from here' continually break out on the public stage.



Just imagine an every-night bar crawl that you could buy into...and catch some of the best raw talent in whatever music type you desire to witness...catching a regular shuttle and/or Pedicab to get you to the next area, or back to your hotel and/or taxi stand safely.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 11005
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tex,

You beat me to it, in a way...darn my thorough editing!

Cheers
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Texorama
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Username: Texorama

Post Number: 109
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Love the bar crawl idea--done right, it could really take off. Part of the problem is that we don't have a Sixth Street, like Austin's, and visitors have to navigate a weird street grid at night. But something connecting Corktown, the WSU area, the CBD, and the Eastern Market/east riverfront could help.

And this is no time to be letting the summer music on the river die!
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 830
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"With more marketing Detroit could easily snag people from Toronto and Chicago."

Yes, i think Detroit is really ramping up it's marketing and advertising, hopefully they are reaching out to all major cities within a 4-5 hour drive to come play in motown.

I think Cleveland is a bit more realistic of a market to persue for tourists. It is a 3 hour drive and the cities have a lot in common, but are each unique in their own respect. I'm not sure how effective advertising in places like Toronto and Chicago would be. Compared to those world cities, Detroit's culture(museums), dining, theater, and shopping options are lacking. Where do people who love to gamble and live in Toronto or Chicago go? Probably Vegas. I'm not sure how we could snag gamblers in those cities to come to Detroit and gamble.

It's clear to me that the casinos and Ford Field, CoPa, and JLA are huge draws for those in mid-sized cities.

Music? What ever came of that new festival two or three years ago that was similar to Austins South by Southwest music festival?
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3782
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great ideas all around. Maybe once enough people from Chicago, Cleveland, and Toronto visit, we can start worrying about keeping Detroiters around.

Shit. Who needs jobs and residents when you can party party party all the time?
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 831
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A rising tide lifts all boats. Extra tourism will create more new jobs. Our priorities still should be creating new jobs and other quality of life improvements.

But at the same time it can't hurt to advertise yourself to the world based on the strengths you do have.
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Rob_in_warren
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Username: Rob_in_warren

Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whatever we build and market must first be supported by the local population (within 100 miles).

If you build bars along the riverwalk or up woodward, you've got to get area youngsters to call that their primary weekend destination (and I think they would). If we bring more 1st rate shows to Detroit our people must be willing to support the arts/entertainment (not so sure).

If our local population doesn't build these venues up, certainly no one else will get excited about it from around the country.

I think hotel room discounts for people seeing shows/sports downtown would bring more regional over nighters to Detroit. A lot of people would stay downtown and have a great time, but the rooms are expensive. For many, even the cheaper rooms (<200) are not affordable. It might be a win-win for theatres and hotels.
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 87
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit needs to market its strengths and I think they are on the right track with the cars, gambling, sports and culture theme, marketing the city as an adult destination. Hosting the All-Star Game, World Series and Super Bowl definitely helped. I know of several people who came down to see Comerica Park last summer from the Toronto area only because they were impressed with the park on tv. I have noticed a lot of out-of-town visitors at downtown Hotels the past 2 summers here to see their home teams from Cleveland, Chicago and Minnesota. This is something I never saw even a few years ago.

Detroit needs to promote safety, affordability, and walkability. People who have never been here have no idea you can take a safe 5 minute walk from your hotel to a ballgame, restaurants, casino, theatre, etc. (or take the People Mover).
To attract Canadians regional shopping centers should be promoted also.

I strongly believe a Motown or Detroit Music theme museum is needed to give the city a "destination" that differs from other locations. After all, casinos are everywhere now. It's the fact Detroit has casinos in a major downtown core that makes them attractive. The museum would need to have a restaurant, karaoke bar, interactive displays, etc. so that repeat revenues and a local clientele would support it. This would do far more than an aquarium to attract the adults most likely to visit.

The casinos clearly have the $ and motivation to promote gambling weekends in the city. Are they allowed to package their product i.e. hotel deals with Fox theatre and baseball tickets, etc.?
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Detroitpetanque
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Username: Detroitpetanque

Post Number: 22
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"With more marketing Detroit could easily snag people from Toronto and Chicago"

Ummm I've BEEN to Toronto... there's no way in hell people would choose Detroit over Toronto.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 11008
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For this Music City concept, I am specifically talking about creating jobs, encouraging existing venues and helping them beyond their current abilities...and mostly getting the music/poetry/performance art that we have organically developing throughout the area to that next level.

I know many, many artists, musicians, poets, writers...and want to help them communicate their gifts and talents to the world around them.

Hopefully they can make a lifestyle to which they can become accustomed! I'm not talking opulence, merely sustenance!


Danindc, you totally misread this one, and pissed in our pond without reason or merit.
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Lmcdet
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Username: Lmcdet

Post Number: 16
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was in Orlando not to long ago and they were marketing the hell out of Detroit! Seem as though every time I turn on the TV there was a commercial for folks to visit the "D". It was weird, but really cool to see.
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 88
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitpetanque, you're missing the point. They are not choosing Detroit over Toronto. There are tons of people from Toronto & suburbs (5.5 million and growing) looking to get away for the weekend. Right now they are driving to Buffalo, Niagara Falls, Erie, and Cleveland. They are going to shopping malls, casinos, restaurants and ballgames.
They go to Buffalo for shopping and the NFL, Niagara Falls for gambling, Cleveland for baseball, Erie for shopping.
Sound familiar? Now, which city has all of the above? - Answer: Detroit
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 4068
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tourism certainly isn't the answer for everything. As much as I want it, you need other sources for jobs, as Danindc points out. I can't see how attracting more tourism would hurt, but it's very possible to too much focus on it could make the neglect of many neighborhoods continue. I think of the contrasts between the tourist strips and the neighborhoods where people actually live in Niagara Falls (Ontario and New York side) as an example of this.

Iheartthed, I agree that neighborhood infrastructure is a problem, but that really shouldn't matter to visitors who will focus on downtown and vicinity.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3783
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As Mackinaw said.

I've said this repeatedly--some of these threads have WAY too much focus on "attracting outsiders". It's like trying to throw a dinner party to boost your social standing, when in fact, your toilet doesn't flush, there's garbage in the yard, and the car is up on blocks.

Priorities, people. A "city" is much more than a pre-fab shopping mall experience for tourists to drop money. I mean, how many of you folks playing up Chicago and Toronto have ever lived there?

If Detroit focuses on being a functional city, the rest will fall into place effortlessly. It MUST work for its residents before it works for outsiders.

------------------------------ --------------------

For what it's worth, I find it hard to imagine that someone in Michigan says, "You know what? I want to see a band. Let's drive to the House of Blues in Cleveland."
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Kjwick
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Username: Kjwick

Post Number: 64
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to see detroit tap into the convention market more. I was in Atlanta for a scientific convention earlier this month. The trip was very fast and easy...(trip to airport, hotels/restaurants near convention center).

I think Detroit has sufficient entertainment options to appeal to convention goers. With new hotel space downtown in recent years and those coming on-line in the next few, rooms should not be an issue.

Is cobo currently under utilized during the summer months? Besides perception, what keeps some of the large conventions away? We obviously have a few big conventions, but we're no where near the level we could be.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 11012
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Abuses by Unions throwing their weight around...it helped kill Chicago's Summer Consumer Electronic's Show, as it seems Vegas is trying to do with the Winter one.

Those keep more conventions from returning to a town than anything...I've seen more work-rule abuse in convention centers than anywhere. Five men to change a light bulb (enter punchline of WHY here, please), eight to clean a display booth, six to transport EMPTY boxes to overpriced storage...and may the good Lord help you if you pick something up and do it yourself.

It is all bullshit abuse by Unions largely grown Corporate Capitalist themselves (they used to be so necessary and good, too, damn shame! Pendulum swing?)


A convention center must NOT be allowed to become a den of thieves, charging top dollar for basic services and then eliminating any form or type of competition.


Too many convention centers seem to be designed from the go to empty the pockets of anyone who is stupid enough to enter them...not unlike airports and sports arenas.


You'll never find me paying $8 for a $2 beer twice, nor $5 for a $2 cup of espresso.

There is a fair way to approach and price these things, it just doesn't seem to happen in our corporate capitalist enclaves.


I go to way fewer conventions in my industry now, because I also refuse to pay the usury rate increases on hotel rooms and taxis. I know all about supply and demand, this goes way far beyond that, so I boycott.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 11013
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan,

Thanks for the clarification, I understand where you're coming from now.

I know nothing of how any of that can improve without money coming into the city's coffers.


Right now? I only advocate creating product that can be sold everywhere, especially outside Detroit, so we can start the money flow INTO the city.

Tourism is the product that can be sold everywhere, especially outside of the city, they simply have to come here to pick it up.


My coffeehouse loose-chain socio-capitalist idea is merely to foment communicative creative neighborhoods...and keep those valuable 'coffeedollars' from flowing to Seattle.
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Gannon
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Post Number: 11014
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Plus, any time work is a party...you don't have trouble getting people to show up for work.
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Hockey_guy
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Username: Hockey_guy

Post Number: 2
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I live up in Midland and frequently hear people talking about Detroit. They go there for shopping, sports, concerts, gambling. I go to Detroit a few times a year for sports, and usually eat somewhere before a game. With high gas prices Detroit becomes more appealing to people in Michigan I think. They city needs to find a way to draw out of state people though, and show that Detroit can be a destination.

(Message edited by Hockey_guy on November 28, 2007)
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 833
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great to hear that hockey guy. I have a lot of relatives up in the tri cities. I know once, my relatives from my mom's side of the family (reside in Oakland county) ran into my relatives on my dad's side (tri cities) at a play at the Masonic.

Although i doubt anyone from anywhere comes to the city proper JUST for shopping. Lol. That is Auburn Hills, Troy, and Novi.
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Thnk2mch
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Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 1077
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would love to have the where-with-all to create a "Motor City Limits" music venue in Detroit.

Think of all the different acts that could continually draw people, from all over, to it.
The list is a long one.
The music history here will never go away, and seems to keep on going.

How could it fail?
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Terryh
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Username: Terryh

Post Number: 580
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seventeen years ago, when my ex girlfriend and I went downtown to dine and watch movies in the Ren Cen, you could not have convinced me, it was almost unimaginable in my cynical mind, that downtown as well as some surrounding areas would be in the tip top shape that they are in now. Back in 99 a man told me that if he was a much younger man with money to invest he would bank on Detroit making a comeback. Looks like he may be right.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 878
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Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't say all that exactly. Investing in Detroit while the getting's good would be ideal. This city was built to become a great one. I don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the infrastructure (unless they mean the services). We still have a LONG way to go though to reach that status again.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 1056
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, Dan-in-DC, I lived in Chicago for over 10 years. I would say that a signficant percentage of pedestrians on Michigan Avenue on any given weekend are tourists or other visitors. It could be has high as 50% on a Saturday, 20% on a weekday. And, I think you can say with certainity that 80-90% of the pedestrian traffic on Michigan Avenue during the weekend consists of people who do not live in the city of Chicago proper -- i.e. those that aren't tourist live in the suburbs.

The presence of these visitors has and has had an enormous impact on the vitality and economic success of North Michigan Avenue. Huge. Make or break.

So, I do not think an attempt to lure visitors is a bad strategy, nor does it have to be mutually exclusive with improving neighborhoods or infrastructure.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 11015
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The number of clients I had in Chicago who bought an apartment downtown just for their weekend fun was amazing.

Especially given the price of real estate in that town!

I'm talking the early to mid nineties, too.

Most of 'em used them once or twice a month, but to them it was worth it to have the place to sleep to eliminate the commute back and forth for their city fun.

This isn't new...the terms townhome and country estate have been in our lexicon for a long time.




After reading Dan's follow-up, I didn't get the feeling he was so much anti-tourism but pro-home-service...and felt that we were putting too much weight on the fun stuff while ignoring the more crucial but mostly mundane infrastructure and maintenance.

Am I close, Dan? Tell me you're not against tourism, just that it is not a partytime panacea.



Thnk2mch,
I've got an idea paralleling that, but will not discuss it publicly just yet. We're certainly on the same wavelength.

I wouldn't call it that, though, likely to get into trademark dispute with the Austin group...but we could obviously come up with an even better name!
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6nois
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Post Number: 592
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 2:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As far as Detroit goes I think it has a huge draw for people in the state. As a Bay City native many come to Detroit for, Art, Music, Plays, etc, and Sports, as well as Nightlife, bay city has lots of pub type bars and nightclubs, but the big city comes calling some weekends. I think the draw is there Detroit just needs to market itself more, and keep on investing in the city, downtown and neighborhoods alike.
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Emu_steve
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Username: Emu_steve

Post Number: 511
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 7:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

"Detroit needs to market its strengths and I think they are on the right track with the cars, gambling, sports and culture theme, marketing the city as an adult destination. Hosting the All-Star Game, World Series and Super Bowl definitely helped. I know of several people who came down to see Comerica Park last summer from the Toronto area only because they were impressed with the park on tv. I have noticed a lot of out-of-town visitors at downtown Hotels the past 2 summers here to see their home teams from Cleveland, Chicago and Minnesota. This is something I never saw even a few years ago."

Agree.

When one talks about marketing it needs to be something which appeals to the mass public.

Sports, gambling, etc. indeed appeal to the mass public more so then culture and arts.

Does anyone talk about Greenfield Village? Smithsonsin in Washington? Aren't those so 1950s? (Aren't we more interested in the next 10 years then the last 200? Isn't that a result of the tech 'revolution'?).

I also think the Tigers winning the AL did more for Detroit then a multi-million dollar media campaign.

Sports will get Detroit the free media. Quickens won't get much media (except for in financial circles) but that will bring the jobs.

For a downtown to thrive it needs BOTH sports and jobs.

Detroit has made a lot of progress on both counts.
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Scottr
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Username: Scottr

Post Number: 839
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Iheartthed, I agree that neighborhood infrastructure is a problem, but that really shouldn't matter to visitors who will focus on downtown and vicinity.

No matter how great downtown is, Detroit's image of being the most dangerous city in the country is going to hurt it significantly, and the vast majority of that crime is happening in the neighborhoods.

Think it's not a problem? One of my less-informed friends, despite my constant reassurances, was seriously concerned for his well-being when i just took him on a quick drive through downtown one night to show him it's not as bad as he thinks it is. I didn't dare actually get him out of the car, he probably would have had a panic attack (maybe sometime in the future though). This wasn't some guy from across the country either, he was living only half a mile from the CoD city limits at the time, in what was hardly the greatest area itself, and grew up in Flint and the Flint area. The image that Detroit is a dangerous place is it's biggest adversary when it comes to attracting tourists, regardless of where within the city the crime is occurring.
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 543
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MARCH MADNESS-2009--FORD FIELD--NUFF SAID
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 4074
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scottr, I agree that in terms of image and comforting the less well-informed (re: tourism and encouraging people to visit), crime does need to come down. In the mean time, we could get more information out there on just how safe the central areas of the city. Honestly, more info on the nature of our homicides should be publicized. Showing that there is a high concentration of these crimes in just a few of the worst neigbhorhoods, and that they're often drug related, and often not random, should jibe with people's rationality.

On another thread there is apparently talk of Kipatrick adding 600 police officers. That would be a positive sign for the people who want the entire city to be safer.

Your friend's fear is all-too-common. I think metro Detroiters struggle with this sort of thing more than people from far-off places. I've had friends, from Minnesota of all places, embrace Detroit is recent years, yet people from our suburbs continue to shit their pants.
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 544
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Final four. March Madness. The preparation for this huge event will rival the superbowl. march 2009,

we will have nearly 2000 new hotel rooms,

MGM< MOTOR CITY<GREEKTOWN<fort shelby double tree<Book Cad<

a complete east river walk, hundreds of new downtown residents, a re-developed tiger stadium site, a clean restored bell-isle,

a florishing Main street, WOODWARD, a commuter line from new center to airport, a fully new airport, a completed dequinder cut, a red wings plan in action, Eastern market renovation,

Quicken loan under construction, A fuller dense Brush park, midtown, cass cooridor, woodbridge, corktown,

continued restoration of Adams theater, United Artist theater, broderick, david whitney, Michigan theater,a new revamped Capital park.

AND MOST OF ALL,,, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE VISITION AN GETTIN A NEW OUTLOOK ON THE CITY. DID I MENTION THE FINAL FOUR IN MARCK 2009?
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3784
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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

After reading Dan's follow-up, I didn't get the feeling he was so much anti-tourism but pro-home-service...and felt that we were putting too much weight on the fun stuff while ignoring the more crucial but mostly mundane infrastructure and maintenance.

Am I close, Dan? Tell me you're not against tourism, just that it is not a partytime panacea.



Exactly. All that stuff is great--who doesn't want fun stuff to do--but bars and big events don't make the buses run on time or plow the streets. Mind you, I'm often found running on the National Mall, navigating amongst the tourist crowd....

The city needs to work for its taxpaying residents first before it caters to nonresidents. Visitors are going to eat out, and maybe even do a bit of shopping, but that kind of impact pales in comparison to those who pay income and property taxes.
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Rob_in_warren
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Username: Rob_in_warren

Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown entertainment is on training wheels right now.

We are building an industry. It's success is predicated on providing tourists (both regional and national) with the best possible services. The city is pumping lots of money into setting up the casinos, restaurants, bars, sports, shows, shopping, parking, transit... It will bring the industry fully online in the next 5 to 10 years. It should then maintain/grow on its own.

Some of the positive growth in downtown housing, hotels, and business growth can be attributed to having casinos/entertainment. All of those things feed off of each other, and snowball into more redevelopment opportunities. (increasing tax revenue)

There is some faith involved. If downtown doesn't put the best possible product on the street the business growth (and huge tax revenue) will certainly be limited.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3787
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It's success is predicated on providing tourists (both regional and national) with the best possible services. The city is pumping lots of money into setting up the casinos, restaurants, bars, sports, shows, shopping, parking, transit...



Makes you wonder when the City is going to start pumping some money into services for those who have stuck it out as residents for God knows how many years.

The logical extension of what you argue, Rob_in_Warren, is a city with no residents, and consisting of little more than a downtown area with hotels, restaurants, bars, and entertainment venues. Does that sound like a world-class city to you?
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Rob_in_warren
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Username: Rob_in_warren

Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 5:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does that sound like a world-class city to you?
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No, but you can't assume that Detroit is putting all its eggs in one basket with the downtown. You also can't assume that the neighborhoods will be destroyed if downtown investments are successful. If anything, they should slowly get better. The increasing tax revenue collected downtown would get spread out to the neighborhoods. More jobs will be available to more city residents.

You're right, a city can't live without residents, but residents can't live without major industries around them. That has been shown over the last 40 years in Detroit.

The schools are a disaster, i'll give you that. But Detroit is cleaning up some neighborhoods and adding police presence in the community. Kwame hasn't totally given up on the neighborhoods.

I think rebuilding the city center is the correct approach. We'll see.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

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Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think Rob wasn't going that far, Dan.

Indeed, in many ways, Kilpatrick is banking on a long-run trickle down from central city development. You have to understand that the central development is not just restaurants and entertainment. Perhaps thousands of new residents live in downtown and midtown over 5-10 years ago. More employees are moving to downtown, and paying taxes. Trickle-down is not that crazy of an idea. But as I said on another thread in the course of praising Kilpatrick, it's not as if the neighborhoods are devoid of redevelopment and even infrastructure improvements. I will rarely call you out for you geography, Dan, but when you visit you'll see that a lot of smaller, unheralded developments are occuring beyond the central city. For one thing, the far east side redevelopment is getting rolling, and the blocks along Kercheval and Jefferson have seen complete infrastructure replacement in the last year. The Brush Park redevelopment plan is being transplanted over there.
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Alan55
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Username: Alan55

Post Number: 797
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scott: "No matter how great downtown is, Detroit's image of being the most dangerous city in the country is going to hurt it significantly, and the vast majority of that crime is happening in the neighborhoods."

Consumer perception is always a lagging indicator, Scott, whether you are talking about perceptions of cities, automobiles, or anything else. I don't have great respect for Lee Iacocca, but he did say one thing that struck me as true, when he was talking about Chrysler: "Back when we were having troubles, we weren't as bad as people thought, and now that were on top, we're not a great as everybody thinks."

I think Toyota is another example - they seem to be coating a bit on their reputation they earned in the 80's and 90's. The only thing that will slowly change public perception is Detroit's continued success, and the passage of 10 years or so.
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Greatlakes
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Username: Greatlakes

Post Number: 76
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the other hand, I have a feeling that if Detroit suddenly made it to the top 10 safest large cities or even off of the top 10 most dangerous cities, it'd make headlines here, and people wouldn't be so quick to resort to their old perceptions.

When New York City made headlines as the country's safest large city, people noticed, and now you always hear people say, "Yeah, NYC was quite rough in the 70s and 80s, but they've really cleaned it up." Some long-term New Yorkers don't like the new "family-friendly" Times Square, etc. but for the most part, people's perceptions of NYC changed rather quickly. Chicago's downtown area has also always gotten praise since they've cleaned it up, getting rid of graffiti, etc. even though some of its neighborhoods are in just as poor shape as Detroit's.
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Amiller
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Username: Amiller

Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"No matter how great downtown is, Detroit's image of being the most dangerous city in the country is going to hurt it significantly, and the vast majority of that crime is happening in the neighborhoods."

What about Atlanta? Wasn't it another city which had a tarnished image when regards to crime and safety? From what I've heard, they have a growing downtown and midtown area, and are investing heavily in public transit and improvements to the urban landscape. any thoughts?
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Alan55
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Username: Alan55

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Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent example, Greatlakes - New York cleaned up its act, and now, a decade or so later, it has a much better image and reputation. I would be willing to bet, however, that if you interviewed the average American on the street a year or so after its clean-up, the vast majority would have said, "New York - crime filled, litter-strewn; no thanks."

If things continue to improve, Detroit may the new trendy city to visit by 2012 or 2015.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 415
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't go that far. We need an expansive mass transit system before this will be a world-class city. Once the Transit-Oriented Development kicks in after the transit is there, then we will see the world class city that we all hope and strive for.

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