 
Saintme
Member
Username: Saintme
Post Number: 63
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 1:14 pm: |    |
JCPenney? I suppose it's good news, but not very exciting news.
In the last three years almost every friend I've had from Canton moved to Chicago after graduating college. On the plus side, I never have to book a hotel when I visit Chicago. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2669
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 1:53 pm: | |
Canton and similar bedroom communities aren't the place for young single people looking for excitement. They weren't intended to be so criticizing them for being "boring" or "soulless" is missing the point.
If these communities were vehicles they'd be Camrys/Accords/Taurus/minivans . Like the cars, they represent a practical choice for a wide swath of consumers. Not for consumers who want excitement or "soul". They're for people who view a house or particular location as a functional, utilitarian thing.
Their list of needs and wants regarding housing probably looks like:
- relatively close to their job(s)
- X bedrooms, Y baths, certain square footage to accomodate their size family
- good schools
- low crime
- easy access to routine shopping needs
- proximity to family and friends
What's low on their priority list, at least in this phase of their life is:
- architectural character
- walkable
- proximity to exciting restaurants and bars
- uniqueness
Not that they'd mind those things, but there's always tradeoffs in the housing market. 1920's character or an attached garage? Walking distance to a thriving downtown or another bedroom and a family room?
The Camry/Accord/Taurus may not be an exciting car but only car snobs hold their drivers in disdain. When it comes to the housing equivalent of the practical mid-size sedan things get a bit snippy. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 440
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 2:01 pm: | |
Better be careful insulting Canton. You might get your head sawn off and your fingertips blow-torched... |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 275
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 2:07 pm: | |
Track-
Nice argument, but have you seen the housing? It is a weak attemp at "reproducing the hometown feeling" of community, and even has replicated "alleys", as though those things somehow make a neighborhood appealing. The houses are modeled to look and feel as though they are older, to give it that old victorian feeling. The problem is most of them are vinyl sided bores, and the color schemes are laughable. Kind of looks as though the circus moved in........
As for crime, there is a lot of the spoiled, rich kid type vandalism that occurs there. It just isn't played-up like they do for Detroit. |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 2:09 pm: | |
Some, probably most, people don't care very much what their town looks like. They don't care if the houses look like they were dropped onto a prairie by helicopter. If they are comfortable in their home and can buy stuff and get to their job and have acceptable schools for their kids, that is sufficient. Those people are not going to pay a premium in money or safety to live someplace that looks better or more interesting. I don't see why that is so bad. People who don't feel that way, don't have to live in those towns. They probably don't even have to visit. I don't.
Now I think the people doing those developments are missing an opportunity to build something better, which would end up being more valuable, but the fact that they aren't isn't really a problem for me. If we don't want sprawl, let's have some kind of metropolitan or state-wide land use plan that would restrict it, but I won't criticize people just because they don't share my aesthetic priorities. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 277
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 2:25 pm: | |
Nobody is criticising anyone, only their choice of places to live. Since this thread was actually about COMMERCIAL development in Canton, the personal aspect of the Stepford vs. our-only-way-to-get-into-a-hou se type people should not even be a topic.
As for the people who are doing the development, shame on their cookie cutter attitude. They could be a bit more inventive, sheesh!
By the way, have you checked out the prices of said homes? They are, in no way, cheap and are, most definitely on the premium side. I disagree that they weren't buying into exactly the "hometown" hype and prestige. |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2671
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 2:27 pm: | |
Plymouthres, I assume you're talking about Cherry Hill Village, not Canton in general?
I went through it a few years ago. It seems like a page out of the New Urbanist playbook. Maybe not well-executed if the siding and colors are poorly done, I don't recall. A well done NU development is supposed to be able to sell at a premium price. For all the hoopla about NU there are precious few examples around here. It's another thread, but are the developers dumb, or are they smart? |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4085
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 5:43 pm: | |
Amiller, I hope you're right about my generation walking out on places like Canton, but ignorance and stupidity breeds ignorance and stupidity; at least some of the people that grow up in modern suburbia will like it. Look at the baby boomers. They grew up in the first renditions of modern suburbia, and have proceeded to give us exurban sprawl.
And Novi SHOULD try to create a downtown. It's a good thing if a soul-less, center-less place realizes the fact that it needs to give itself a downtown, and this is really one of the most practical uses of new urbanist planned downtowns.
I know nothing about that place but I always thought it did have a downtown, somewhere. Maybe on Grand River? I don't know anything about that area. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 307
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 9:26 pm: | |
Novi never had a "real" downtown. There's been businesses at Novi Road and Gr. River going back over 100 years, if you went back 30 years ago, there was a school and surrounding residential too. But it didn't have the downtown that developed in places like Northville. The City of Novi has a cool online mapping web site where you can look at the aerial photos going back to the early 1960s. You get more of a sense of the place from those photos. You can also see the rollercoaster that used to be at the "Casino" where Novi Road ended at Walled Lake. |
Classico
Member
Username: Classico
Post Number: 71
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 1:14 am: | |
Okay I'll go first.
You want to know the big difference between people who live in places like Canton, USA and those who do not? Forgot everything else....(although practical and valid points track).
Its really a manner of people who give a moments thought to the built environment versus people who really don't give a flying flip.
Seriously. Whether thats a good or bad thing is not the point. You can live in places with good schools, good safety....blah blah and have it not be a Canton Township. Just as you can live in non Canton like places and have it not filled with "undesirables", crime and shit schools. I really think it comes down to people who really have no desire to learn about the built environment, consequences of certain ways you live, and the desire to be anywhere remotely near other ethnicities(say what ever you want, you know this is a highly prevalent reason). Some people are so obsessed with this warped mentality that the more isolated,sterile,safe, and conservative a place is, the better it is for them and their children. Natural environment control freaks if you ask me.
We get that there are people who want the more "safe" and "traditional" lifestyles, but can you at least make an attempt at examining how your lifestyle is having more of a impact(negatively) on the built environment than nearly every other?
To me it's people who are just going to do whatever they please, because they can(good for you). Most likely a reflection on how they were raised.
I would love to scream at them how the nice little cozy "urban, but rural" areas they so desire become the urban areas they so despise with time(quick time these days). Man, that having your cake and eating it to thing is tricky huh?
Come home from work, pick up the kids form school/soccer practice, go home watch real housewife's of Orange County. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. And so goes life. The men dream of getting away from the highly nagging middle aged soccer mom, while she wonders just how much better her life would be if SHE was one of those real housewifes of orange county. He lets his frustration out by blowing his hard earned cash at Home Depot/Best buy, while she goes to Nordstrom and loads up on all the Dooney and Burkes she can. Rinse.Repeat......
The kids are left to there own devices and self parenting themselves to the likes of hours upon hours of Halo because there not a fucking thing else to do other than be involved in some after school sports activity. At least the kids know they'll have a job waiting for them after school lets out at one of the million fucking countless CVS's that dot the landscape......
Take this to Canton east....Macomb Twp...and watch it all repeat itself.
Hey all I do is observe, and this is what I see. I've worked at department stores in Somerset..I've seen this crap up front and personal. The thing people say to you(somehow thinking you share the same self-righteous, elitist, or down right racist views). If I could have recorded the snide comments people gave me and the social commentary that follwed.....God. I learned more than I needed to know about certain people and certain lifestyles. Enough to the point that I do whatever in my power to NOT be that person.
Now, I know there are people who live in areas like the mentioned who are not anything like this. You may be that person. You are the exception, not the rule. Good for you.
Flame away. |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 701
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 2:16 am: | |
Wow the people here know A LOT about so many of the residents of Canton Twp. How they live and what they value. |
Atwater
Member
Username: Atwater
Post Number: 116
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 2:48 am: | |
Novine, and Alan55, I disagree with you both; I think Novi did have a downtown, just not in the sense of other places, like Detroit (obviously), or Northville, as you pointed out. But the intersection of Grand River Avenue, Novi Road, and 11 Mile Road was indeed the center of the city, and historic buildings stood there (at least one still does, though it's now been covered over and looks like crap).
I think Novi's stupid mistake was trying to create a new "downtown" instead of renovating and trying to recreate and build upon what they had. 11 Mile Road was taken out at some point, and most of the old, historic downtown buildings were torn down to make way for modern shopping centers. 11 Mile Road now becomes a part of the parking lot for one such shopping center. Then, Novi decided to build this subdivision-like "downtown", just south of the original area, without even trying to include the original area itself! Stupid planning on Novi's part. But they did once have a downtown.
And I think, had they restored the original intersection of the three roads, refurbished the remaining historical buildings and sold lots on the other corners to developers under strict building codes to build "downtown" type buildings, downtown Novi could have come back nicely. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 310
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 4:07 am: | |
I wish it were true but I don't think there's ever been a lot of "historic" buildings at the Gr. River and Novi Road intersection. 30 years ago at the intersection itself, there was:
NE Corner - Crappy old gas station (not historic)
NW Corner - Dave's Hamburgers(famous but not historic)
SE Corner - Old bank building (historic)
SW Corner - Old gas station (not historic)
Today, the one historic building is still there. The rest are gone with the exception of the one gas station that has been rebuilt from the ground up. But from the perspective of the look and feel of the intersection, if you go there today, it probably has more of a feel of a downtown than it did 30 years ago (especially since the new building went in on the NE corner).
On 11 Mile Road, you had at best, a handful of old homes. The only major buildings that I can recall being torn down were the old Elementary School, the old Village Hall and the old Parks and Recreation building. The old Township Hall and the old church were moved to other locations in the city. But none of those buildings were ones that you could have built a new downtown around.
As for Novi's downtown plans, I think the city started the plans for a new downtown back in the 80s. The plans actually cover the entire area from I-96 south to the railroad and from the railroad east to a line roughly 1/2 mile east of Novi Road. Most people think of the Main Street area as Novi's attempt at a downtown but the city's plans have always included the entire area described as being downtown.
From what I've heard over the years from those who worked on the plans, the Novi Town Center development was planned to be the first major component of a new downtown. That's why it incorporated the fountain, the sculpture, the park at Grand River and Novi Road, etc. After it was built, apparently a lot of people were dissatisfied with how it turned out as they were expecting Northville and got a strip mall. The city went back to the drawing board and changed the zoning to mandate more of an urban environment which is why a lot of the newer development in the area incorporates reduced or zero setbacks and no or limited parking in front of the buildings. Also, 11 Mile Road still exists through most of Town Center and long-term, it would be possible for the parking areas of Town Center to be re-developed into a more intense urban form along that road.
As far as creating a downtown in Novi, I think people have to take the long view in their expectations. It's been at least 20 years in development and there has been some progress even though there have been missteps along the way. It was sad to see a landmark like Dave's go. But the Fidelity building that replaced it really does frame that intersection better than Dave's ever could have. The proposed Main Street area development also has a ton of potential with taller buildings, parking garages versus lots, a lot of residential, some of it in mixed-use buildings and a new park area to serve as a focal point of the area. All of the new development coming into the area has to follow the more urban zoning requirements and over time, as the gaps are filled in, if nothing else, it will be more of an urban experience and it will be centered around a pedestrian scale environment, not a strip mall car-oriented environment. |
Club_boss
Member
Username: Club_boss
Post Number: 203
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 10:01 am: | |
I wasn’t going to reply to this thread but what the hay…
I lived in Canton for a few (3) years in the late 90’s. Canton Center & Warren area, I thought it was a pleasant area, with nice homes (subdivisions), manicured lawns, and picture perfect back yards.
I thought there was too much traffic for the roads, and this was 7 or 8 years ago, but I complain about a lot of things.
The lady of the house worked in downtown Detroit at Blue Cross & Blue Shield and the man of the house worked at Deloitte & Touché in the Ren-Cen.
I saw mostly families with children of varying ages, mostly tween to teen.
I don’t remember any empty houses, abandoned homes, blight, and never even heard the word crime.
(Message edited by club boss on December 01, 2007) |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 450
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 10:39 am: | |
The Novi "downtown" is nothing but a two-story strip mall IMHO.
(Message edited by nainrouge on December 01, 2007) |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 940
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 10:48 am: | |
"Wow a Del Taco! Canton has finally made it to civilization."
Not really, SE Michigan has a Del Taco franchise. They're much better than Taco Hell. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 452
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 11:08 am: | |
quote:The kids are left to there own devices and self parenting themselves to the likes of hours upon hours of Halo because there not a fucking thing else to do other than be involved in some after school sports activity.
quote:and never even heard the word crime.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/artikkel?Dato=20071130& Kategori=UPDATE&Lopenr=7113004 24&Ref=AR&imw=Y |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 104
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 11:11 am: | |
Just started watching "Weeds" on DVD. Great show. Mary Louise Parker is terrific. Maybe the opening song & video, "Little Boxes" should have been filmed in Canton? |
Mumbly
Member
Username: Mumbly
Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 11:46 am: | |
"I really think it comes down to people who really have no desire to...be anywhere remotely near other ethnicities."
I totally disagree. Canton is a surprisingly diverse city, including a substantial Indian community. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 311
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
"The Novi "downtown" is nothing but a two-story strip mall IMHO."
Not too many strip malls have underground parking or depend on streetside parking (at leasts in the burbs) but your point is taken. My point was that going forward, all of the development in that area will have to follow the zoning that require the zero setbacks and parking behind the buildings or underground or in garages. Plus, the new development coming forward is going to be 4 - 5 stories tall. |
Saintme
Member
Username: Saintme
Post Number: 64
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 1:01 pm: | |
401don - I had the same image the very first time I saw the show three years ago. I love the opening. My friends from Canton agree because it really does look like anywhere in Canton, where every home is made by Pulte(a dirty word in our small circle)
For what it's worth, I think Canton is a nice place. Boring as hell & traffic sucks, but nice. I see the appeal, even if it doesn't appeal to me.
Sorry, back to the topic. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3982
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 2:18 pm: | |
"Plus, the new development coming forward is going to be 4 - 5 stories tall."
What is spurring this kind of development? The throngs of people moving into Metro Detroit from other states, or the skyrocketing economy and household wages? |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2931
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 2:25 pm: | |
^I'd guess it's the throngs of people moving from the old and tired areas of SE MI (Livonia, Troy, Warren, etc) to the new and vibrant ones (Royal Oak, Birmingham, Northville, Novi, Canton) ... |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3984
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 2:29 pm: | |
Ok, just wanted to be clear that we are not talking about progress in SE Michigan, just more money moving from one place, leaving it blighted and beleagured, a few miles over to the next soup du jour. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2301
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 2:31 pm: | |
quote:Ok, just wanted to be clear that we are not talking about progress in SE Michigan, just more money moving from one place, leaving it blighted and beleagured, a few miles over to the next soup du jour.
Sounds pretty much business as usual. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2932
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 2:32 pm: | |
well, it's a matter of perspective I guess...for the people who live in the new and vibrant areas, it IS progress...
Further, if and when people do start flocking back to Michigan at some point in the future, the areas that are making improvements now as a proactive measure will have enormous advantage in attracting residents than the areas that begin the make their improvements later as a reactive measure |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3986
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 2:37 pm: | |
"the areas that are making improvements now as a proactive measure will have enormous advantage in attracting residents than the areas that begin the make their improvements later as a reactive measure"
Like a regional rail system? |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2933
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 2:48 pm: | |
? |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3987
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 2:50 pm: | |
¿
I guess I was thinking of that other discussion, where it was being debated whether a rail system should be reactionary, or used to spur development. You mention the advantage of NOT being reactionary. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2934
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 3:54 pm: | |
^No, my comment there was in response to another posters suggestion that rails are purely built to spur development. My comment was that they are built both for that purpose AND in reaction to transportation needs, with the latter carrying more weight.
It'd be hard to imagine someone building a transit system out in the middle of the desert in the hope that a metropolis will spring up around it.
Likewise, it'd be hard to imagine a government body investing millions of dollars in a transit system in response to existing transit needs without at least some expectation of an economic payoff on the back end. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3792
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 4:08 pm: | |
quote:Likewise, it'd be hard to imagine a government body investing millions of dollars in a transit system in response to existing transit needs without at least some expectation of an economic payoff on the back end.
I don't know about that. For decades, Michigan has poured billions of dollars into freeways that have caused disinvestment of economically productive cities, and lowered land values where they are constructed. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2941
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 4:25 pm: | |
^that's debatable, but we can at least agree that they EXPECTED an economic payoff on the back end from their investment, yes? |
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