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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2280
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

There are higher authorities than the imagined oracles that are wiki and even this board (Scott suggested it, but I'm blurting it): Nielsen and Arbitron



That makes no sense. The reason that Nielsen and Arbitron don't include Windsor into Detroit's DMA is because Canada has a different market research system.
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Yeti
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Username: Yeti

Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for catching me on the counties guys. I should have known better, thats what I get for starting a pissing match at midnight.
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6nois
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Username: 6nois

Post Number: 599
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As for the use of Wiki, I would say in Forums it is acceptable, but that is topic dependent. But in any academic setting you should never use Wiki, except for a base point about where to look for more detailed information.
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Rocket_city
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Username: Rocket_city

Post Number: 483
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lansing will soon be a part of us. Fowlerville will be the next Howell. And then just a few miles west of that is Ingham County aka, the center of the state. Does that mean someday we will have to redefine ourselves from the term Southeast Michigan?
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Scooter2k7
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Username: Scooter2k7

Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Typical blanket statement used whenever Wikipedia disagrees with someone. Sorry, but you are wrong here, and WP is far more credible than anyone whose source is 'I used to live there'.

Thats a contradiction if I ever heard one.
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Scooter2k7
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Username: Scooter2k7

Post Number: 33
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What defines a metro area? Is it land or people? Or is it television or radio stations. Well if it is considered by tv broadcast range then Saginaw, Flint, Bay City, and Flint are all covered. WNEM and WIOG for example serve all 4 cities.

And by the way MBS stands for Midland Bay City Saginaw. Which is located in Freeland, Michigan (north of the Saginaw Valley) they offer daily flights to Detroit and Minneapolis. They are not as big as Bishop but they serve a purpose.
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Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 544
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

iheart - "different market research systems" because they're different markets. Our legally defined distinctions are such that we'll never be more than neighbors with some degree of mingling on the margins.
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6nois
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Username: 6nois

Post Number: 600
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some more corrections. The radio stations and TV stations make up Mid-Michigan which is the Tri-Cities plus Flint. And Freeland is in the center of a triangle formed by Midland, Bay City, and Saginaw which is why the airport is there, because it is a cooperative venture, much like Delta College and Saginaw Valley State University, which make up University Center. The Saginaw Valley is another term to describe the greater Tri-City area.
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Alan55
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Username: Alan55

Post Number: 809
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

" The outer fringe is still kind of a grey area though.Up around Romeo it's still pretty rural, as well as Highland/Milford. But the way things are going, give it a few years and those areas will be built up too."

Fortunately, their is one upside to the current housing slump, in that most of the new sprawl development in northern Macomb has ground to a halt, at least temporarily.

As far as the borders of the metro area, I think it might make sense to use the major roads - US-23 for the western border from just south of Flint down to Monroe, and I-69 as the northern border.
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6nois
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Username: 6nois

Post Number: 601
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some more corrections. The radio stations and TV stations make up Mid-Michigan which is the Tri-Cities plus Flint. And Freeland is in the center of a triangle formed by Midland, Bay City, and Saginaw which is why the airport is there, because it is a cooperative venture, much like Delta College and Saginaw Valley State University, which make up University Center. The Saginaw Valley is another term to describe the greater Tri-City area.
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English
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Username: English

Post Number: 608
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ummm...

Last fall, when the Tigers were having their run, you would think that Woodward ran through downtown Ann Arbor.

And we definitely are in the Detroit media market.

50-100 years ago, A2 was its own thing. But increasingly, the metros will blend as sprawl continues.
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Lifeinmontage
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Username: Lifeinmontage

Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it safe to assume that except for the inclusion of Windsor/Essex County, this Port Huron, Flint, Monroe Triangle (including Ann Arbor) is the broadest and most encompassing Metro Detroit definition?

http://www.google.com/maps?q=P ort+Huron%2C+MI&oi=map&gl=US&c t=directions-to&daddr=Port+Hur on%2C+MI&saddr=Flint%2C+MI+to% 3AAnn+Arbor%2C+MI+to%3APlank+R d+%4041.998130%2C+-83.610890+t o%3AMonroe%2C+MI+to%3ADetroit% 2C+MI+to%3APort+Huron%2C+MI&rl =1
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 954
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I pretty much already said that before the debate came about.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2281
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

iheart - "different market research systems" because they're different markets. Our legally defined distinctions are such that we'll never be more than neighbors with some degree of mingling on the margins.



No... Different market research systems because they are different countries. I believe Canada's is government owned.

Windsor's economy is very much influenced by Detroit. People regularly commute from there to Detroit and elsewhere in southeast Michigan to go to work. Windsor's entertainment districts are heavily patronized by residents of southeast Michigan.
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Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 548
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

iheart - we're saying the same thing: "legally defined differences" = "different countries".

American & Canadians live under different laws so there's a level up to which we cannot be considered "same." Furthermore, there are different cultures, tastes, etc. I agree with some of the old "Nine Nations" POV (which places Detroit & Windsor into the same "Foundry" bucket) but the cultural and economic interdependence of the two communities just do not exist (I'm drawing a distinction between casual exchange and true interdependence).

Re: "Canada's is government owned" - maybe, but I don't think so. I did just find a reference for Nielsen Canada...
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Miesfan
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Username: Miesfan

Post Number: 79
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why does this matter really? What is good for Detroit isn't necessarily good for Livonia and vice versa (see Quicken Loans). Detroit residents and Windsor residents are citizens of different nations. They pay different taxes, live under different laws (my cereal box doesn't have nutritional info in French), and there are noticeable and distinct national cultures.

There is little regional cohesion so questions about drawing regional lines is a silly and academic debate.
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Chitown_guy
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Username: Chitown_guy

Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to agree with Scooter that Wikipedia should never be used. I am a teacher and I give a F to any student who cites Wikipedia. Scooter is a primary source stating that he lived there. Wikipedia would be a secondary source (an uncredible one). Now a primary source is always more reliable than a secondary.

On the topics of a metro area we have the same debate in Chicago. Some parts of Indiana could be considered metro Chicago but they like to be on there own. I have been in Mid-Michigan for business and as an outsider I consider Flint, Saginaw, Bay City, and Midland to be on big metro area. The reason is because they are so small. You cannot have small enclaves of metro areas. There is Flint then, farmland, farmland, farmland, Saginaw, farmland, farmland, farmland, Sugar factory, Bay City, then more farmland and eventually Midland.
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Yeti
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Username: Yeti

Post Number: 13
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I knew citing Wikipedia would piss people off, that why I also cited Michigan.gov.

I lived in Flint for 11 years, and I say that Flint is not part of the tri-cities.

By Chitowns logic, I am a primary source, and therefore more reliable than Wikipedia and Scooter.

I also say that Flint is the largest city in Michigan, while Wikipedia says that it is Detroit. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D etroit).

By Chitowns logic, I am the more credible source and therefore I must be correct.

The Fact of the matter is that Wikipedia is not the most credible source, and should be used in conjunction with other, more traditional sources.

That is why I posted three links above, Wiki, Michigan.gov, and the Saginaw Visitors site.

Glad I never had you as a teacher ChiTown.

(Message edited by yeti on December 01, 2007)
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 313
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't understand the anti-Wikipedia bias either. Should it be a student's only source? No. Is it always reliable? No. Can the information be manipulated? Sure. But I've seen print and electronic reference sources that most would consider authoritative that have serious errors that you wouldn't have thought would have made it past the editing process. On some topics, Wikipedia is more accurate and more up-to-date than most other reference sources. You should teach your students to question Wikipedia as a source of information. But it's not without its merits and for some topics, is a better reference resource than anything they'll find in print.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2770
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Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

English you have it backwards.I have long contended ann arbor is not a suburb of detroit. It could have been and that would have been fine but for whatever reason ann arbor never became a manufacturing center.No auto plants, no tool and die auto related plants..........not reliant on the central city.

I would agree ann arbor has no suburbs. The surrounding areas were mostly farms. So the truth is ann arbor relied on farmers to bring produce into town.......... the central city ann arbor was reliant on the farmers from the rural areas. Of course most of the farms don't exist any more but there is still lots of open space north and west of ann arbor in washt county.

I say english has it backward because ann arbor is much more its own entity now then it was when I was young.

As a kid any thing out of the ordinary and we had to go to detroit..........1st run movies, high end downtown shopping..

Now I don't need to leave town to get what I need it is all here.

Not being a suburb does not mean we are not close to detroit.It is not a judgment on my part.
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 1044
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a joke some folks consider Milford metro Detroit (my dad and step-mother, for instance). It's literally on the border with Livingston County. It seems no matter how far people sprawl, they always want to be able to call themselves Detroiters.
General rule, as said, is Wayne, Macomb and Oakland. Still, that's a larger metro area than many large cities.
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Chitown_guy
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Username: Chitown_guy

Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Yeti I do not teach special ed
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Spaceboykelly
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Username: Spaceboykelly

Post Number: 267
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 10:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I were to define the Detroit Metro Area I would say it extends to Waterford/Clarkston to the north, South Lyon/Ann Arbor to the west, and Romulus/Woodhaven to the south. It covers the east in Macomb up to the water. The metro area is basically Oakland, Wayne, Macomb and part of Livingston. There are cities within this area that act more autonomously and would certainly exist if it weren't for the giant amount of sprawl: namely Pontiac and Ann Arbor but that does not excuse them from being part of the metro, although they do have more influence over their surroundings than a normal suburb. Windsor should be included but it is often not because the US is usually concerned with its own population, money, or statistics.

At the present time Flint basically has its own metro area. In the future it will bleed into Detroit's and the tricities and will (God help us) combine metros together but it does not quite do that yet. Flint's suburbs include Grand Blanc, Burton, Clio, etc.

The tricities have been defined as Bay City, Saginaw and Midland by the US Government. I believe there are only 2 or 3 of these zones in America. This grouping situation also happens with dual cities like Minneapolis-St. Paul and Dallas-Ft. Worth. As noted earlier, Bay City, Saginaw, and Midland are cities of similar size, demographics, and they sometimes share resources. The MBS Airport, Delta College, and SVSU are all roughly between the three cities. Many of the more prominent and growing "suburbs" (suburbs are a little different in this area) are also situated between the 3 cities. People often work, shop, hang out in, or attend school in a different city within the tri-cities.

I should say that I believe that if trends of exurban growth (such as those of the last 10 year) continue then all three of these metros will probably be connected.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2283
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

American & Canadians live under different laws so there's a level up to which we cannot be considered "same." Furthermore, there are different cultures, tastes, etc. I agree with some of the old "Nine Nations" POV (which places Detroit & Windsor into the same "Foundry" bucket) but the cultural and economic interdependence of the two communities just do not exist (I'm drawing a distinction between casual exchange and true interdependence).



Casual exchange? How did Windsor get labeled the "Motor City" of Canada? Don't the cities of Detroit and Windsor co-own the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel? Aren't the governments of Detroit/Michigan and Windsor/Ontario actively working together to construct a new bridge? Didn't Windsor's mayor attend that political conference they have on Mackinac Island earlier this year?
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 1158
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

As a kid any thing out of the ordinary and we had to go to detroit..........1st run movies, high end downtown shopping..

Now I don't need to leave town to get what I need it is all here.

Using CL logic, Troy is not a suburb because someone who lives in Troy doesn't have to go to Detroit (or even leave Troy) to get first run movies, high end shopping and everything else they need.

Also using CL logic, Shelby Township is not a suburb because that land was traditionally made up of farms that supplied food to the city and, although most of the farms are gone, there is still some open space there. CL thinks Chelsea isn't a suburb, but it also isn't a self-sufficient village that exists solely to serve the the farmers coming to "town" to shop at the general store and drop off their grain at the elevator for shipment to Ann Arbor or Detroit, either.

Not that anyone cares, but I consider the whole area from south of Monroe to north of Bay City, from the water east to past I-69 west to be one big, ugly, sprawling mess, with a few remaining pockets of open space in between pockmarked with disposable houses set on acreage where people are completely dependent on their cars. Yes, there are some farms - there are farms in Wayne County, too, but no one would argue that Wayne County is not part of Metro Detroit. Yes, there are state recreation areas and other open space. But the main roads are clogged with traffic on Saturday afternoon, most everything near a freeway entrance has been developed and you're never far from the nearest big box store.

It doesn't matter whether you call it all Metro Detroit, or whether you call it the Ann Arbor, Detroit, Lansing, Flint, Tri-City, Jackson, Monroe metro areas. You've still gotta go pretty damn far from Detroit to see real open space and to be far from the trappings of "civilization" and that's sad.
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Hudkina
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Username: Hudkina

Post Number: 81
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wayne Oakland, Macomb, Lapeer, Livingston, and St. Clair counties are all officially a part of the Detroit Metropolitan Statistical Area. Flint (Genesee), Ann Arbor (Washtenaw), and Monroe all form a Combined Statistical Area with the Detroit MSA.

If you want to measure it in a more conservative manner, Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb Counties as well as a small portion of Western St. Clair, southern Lapeer, northern Monroe, and eastern Livingston make up the metro area.
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English
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Username: English

Post Number: 610
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Citylover and I have a difference of a opinion. I'm not so classless that I'd call him "backward", though. That's because I'm just not emotionally invested in whether or not Ann Arbor is an autonomous entity, or anything else for that matter. If it really is, fine, I stand corrected. If it's not, cool, I was right. No skin off my back.
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Citylover
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Post Number: 2772
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Am I supposed to think you don't think I am backward English? I am not as smart as I think I am but not as dumb(backward) as you think I am.

Drm, move to switzerland and get away from this shithole. Ann Arbor has never relied on Detroit the way all those other places you mentioned have.In fact Troy and Shelby twp are obviously suburbs of Detroit as they were created to be suburbs.Ann Arbor wasn't.

The reason ann arbor has no suburbs is because it is not really an urban city.It is a college town.Aside from the U there is no dominant industry in town.And employees of the U come from all over.......jackson, tecumseh, toledo, etc. Not just from washt county

What I don't get is why it bothers some of you that Ann Arbor is not a suburb.Of course it is just my opinion but what difference does it make?.If it were I would recognize it as a suburb.But it aint.Any one that knows ann arbor easily knows that.

Go make this argument to eastpointe a suburb that does not want to be a suburb.
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 1159
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Drm, move to switzerland and get away from this shithole.

Are you including Ann Arbor as part of this shithole?
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Scooter2k7
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Username: Scooter2k7

Post Number: 34
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many of the more prominent and growing "suburbs" (suburbs are a little different in this area) are also situated between the 3 cities. People often work, shop, hang out in, or attend school in a different city within the tri-cities.

Have you ever been there? What is a suburb? Frankenmuth? It is all farmland and a lot of unincorporated communities. Between the 3 you have Frankenmuth, Birch Run, Buena Vista, and a bunch of small townships that may or may not exist on a map. Midland is not like Bay City or Saginaw. Saginaw is a run-down city that needs a major renaissance, Bay City is a small and old city. And Midland has a quaint little downtown and a nice shopping district. Dow runs Midland. Seriously though the 3 cities are different and unique in their own way. SVSU is a beautiful campus that is rapidly expanding. If you ever get the chance the Saginaw Valley is a place to check out.
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English
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Username: English

Post Number: 616
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know, I was actually attempting to be polite to Citylover. I don't know enough about Citylover to make any judgments about him.. all I know is that whenever Ann Arbor comes up, he's in the thread. But the fact that we disagree about Ann Arbor is not enough reason to make a blanket statement about his personal qualities.
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6nois
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Username: 6nois

Post Number: 602
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Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scooter2k7, Tri-City suburbs are Essexville, Auburn, etc, these cities didn't start as suburbs but have grown into suburban cities for the area, and many of the townships such as Saginaw Twp, are very suburban.
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Southofeight
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Username: Southofeight

Post Number: 120
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Supporting 6nois in that Bay City, Midland and Saginaw definitely compose the tri-city region of mid-Michigan. Flint has its own thing going on. Originally from there, and that was the perception when I was growing up.

And while it is 90 minutes from downtown Detroit, in the '70s and '80s we would get nightly the Channel 50 feed in Bay City. That meant Tigers games (nearly all of them, too) and the 10 o'clock news.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 1063
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here.. I was able to locate this infomration on the US Census Buear Web Site, with respect to the status of Ann Arbor as part of the Detroit Metro area. I've reproduced the pertinent section, but here is the link: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/

"2006 American Community Survey
Data Profile Highlights:

Ann Arbor is classified as a suburb of Detroit.

NOTE. Although the American Community Survey (ACS) produces population, demographic and housing unit estimates, it is the Census Bureau's Population Estimates Program that produces and disseminates the official estimates of the population for the nation, states, counties, cities and towns and estimates of housing units for states and counties.

This means that we at the Census Bureau are the supreme authority for determining which city belongs in which metro area. Some people like to indulge in the idea that Ann Arbor is a stand-alone city. But we say it is NOT, and our word is law."

(Message edited by ray on December 03, 2007)
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Spaceboykelly
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Username: Spaceboykelly

Post Number: 269
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scooter2k7, yes, I lived in Saginaw for over 20 years. You seem to be misinformed in your criticism of my quote ....

I said, "Many of the more prominent and growing "suburbs" (suburbs are a little different in this area) are also situated between the 3 cities. People often work, shop, hang out in, or attend school in a different city within the tri-cities."

You said, "Between the 3 [Bay City, Saginaw, and Midland] you have Frankenmuth, Birch Run, Buena Vista, and a bunch of small townships that may or may not exist on a map."

None of the places you list are actually *between* the tri-cities. Those are all between Saginaw and Flint. Places that are actually between the tri-cities would include Saginaw Township, University Center, Auburn, Freeland, and Kochville. These places have things like Wal-Marts and strip malls and I would consider them to be suburban in design with a greater amount of farmland than suburbs in Detroit. They are affected by sprawl.

You said, "Midland is not like Bay City or Saginaw. Saginaw is a run-down city that needs a major renaissance, Bay City is a small and old city. And Midland has a quaint little downtown and a nice shopping district."

I said they have many similarities. You have broadly generalized them in a way that does make some sense but I don't think you get the whole picture. I didn't say they have the same industries. Saginaw is a GM town that was originally a lumber town but is now beginning to focus more on medical, Bay City is sugar beets and lumber, and Midland is Dow Chemical. You do not sound like you are actually very familiar with any of the tri-cities and I'm sorry if I am wrong in assuming that. Each of the three cities has a smallish downtown, generally similar amounts of income (if you count the city and areas surrounding it for each).... they do pool some resources and people do travel between them often.

Saginaw is larger than the other two cities and it does need to be revitalized but it is a completely different animal. It is more like an actual city, it is older, and it has unique problems to deal with. However, there are two downtowns (one of which is doing much better), there is a large township and more suburban growth, and the city itself has more infrastructure than the other two of the tri-cities. I am sure that growing up in Saginaw has influenced my decision to move to Detroit and to take an interest in cities in general (even though it is not my area of expertise... I'm an art history major).

I'm hoping for good things for each of the tri-cities and Detroit.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2777
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ray precisely because it is a stand alone city Ann Arbor is not a suburb.

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