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Archive through December 03, 2007Irish_mafia30 12-03-07  11:32 am
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 980
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rocket_city, I can find 20 comments on this thread that are a blow to blacks.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2642
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

This is not an African Town. This is a tribute to the legacy of Paradise Valley. We need themes. We need distinction for downtown districts that are not growing as they could/should.


We don't need themes. We need competent city services, such as police officers who show up when there is a shooting.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1944
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Seem like some of you all are the racist. I didn't see no one bitching when they had Poletown.





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Gumby
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Username: Gumby

Post Number: 1667
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Seem like some of you all are the racist. I didn't see no one bitching when they had Poletown.



Are you f'ing kidding me. You can't seriously think this is the same thing. Pole town grew up organically without the use of government dollars, much like greektown. No one seems to think the idea of a new paridise valley is a bad idea. It is the use of government dollars to try and force it into an area that already has an identity.

For the record I am pretty sure the same reaction would happen if they tried to recreate poletown in capitol park using government dollars.

Destroying poletown was just as tragic as destroying Paridise Valley.
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Atwater
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Username: Atwater

Post Number: 120
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 12:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Iheartthed,

First of all, you're wrong about "Kinda like rebranding the Cass Corridor as "Midtown"." It seems that some people, yourself perhaps included, can't seem to understand... so I'm going caps with it.. THE CASS CORRIDOR IS NOT THE SAME THING AS MIDTOWN. Midtown is a larger area, that *includes* the Cass Corridor, as well as Brush Park, as well as Wayne State, and the Cultural District, and the Medical Center, and more. Does your definition of the Cass Corridor include all of those areas? Nope. So they're not the same, and "Midtown" is not a replacement name for the Cass Corridor. But I'm sure someone here will make another post mentioning that it is, soon enough.

Second of all, there are big problems about this situation, but rather than the issue here being because of racism of non-blacks, the real issue is the racial thinking of blacks behind this project in the first place. Using public money for the benefit of one race? Uch... I'd love to see your reaction at some sort of "white district".

And, it's scandalous that this program will be rebranding Harmonie Park as some black cultural place. Harmonie Park was not black, or African. It was German, and what Detroit *should* be doing is building on REAL history, and that would mean helping it to return to a German district. The city would be a lot richer with a revived German district rather than a new black one. The entire city is black! Anyone spending any time in Detroit is seeing black culture around them most everywhere! These kind of districts usually celebrate *minority* groups- not majority groups! Germans are a minority group, and a German district would be interesting. But a black district is ridiculous as blacks are the majority here and most of the city is a black district!

Furthermore, if this project should even happen at all, it should be elsewhere, namely, closer to the original Black Bottom and Paradise Valley. But the people in charge don't care about any groups other than themselves. It is they who are the real racists here.

Maybe one day Detroit will move past all the racial thinking... black this, white that, etc, etc, etc.. or maybe not.
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Daytwa
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Username: Daytwa

Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 8:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eliminating assinine forum discussions like this one would be a start...
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Detroitduo
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Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 896
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Jesus: The council meetings I sat in were, roughly, 6 years ago and the comments were barely vailed about white business owners coming to the council asking for permission to build or re-zone. That was the past and I hope today's council is better... Parts of this redevelopment reek of the old council.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2296
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The council meetings I sat in were, roughly, 6 years ago and the comments were barely vailed about white business owners coming to the council asking for permission to build or re-zone. That was the past and I hope today's council is better...



Really? Mike Illitch never seemed to have much trouble getting what he wants from them...
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2297
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Furthermore, if this project should even happen at all, it should be elsewhere, namely, closer to the original Black Bottom and Paradise Valley.



Great idea! Let's put it right in the middle of I-75.
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Rob_in_warren
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Username: Rob_in_warren

Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Great idea! Let's put it right in the middle of I-75."
---
No one is saying that. Just wondering why such a great (and well funded) development idea needs to go in the middle of an already developed area with it's own history?
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Detroitduo
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Username: Detroitduo

Post Number: 897
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ihearthed: what I mean by "...I hope today's council is better..." is I hope they are more fair. I think what they do for Illitch is also UNfair. But all too often, Money talks.
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 3138
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 10:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

back to the original thread, Harmonie Park is a pretty special location, I am glad to see work to develop a plan for it rather than just let things happen. I think it is an area that could really take off with some effort
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2643
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is Harmonie Park more important than the entire city? The entire city could take off with some effort.

We have a choice between 100+ new business throughout the entire city or 5 - 10 new ones in Harmonie Park. Why should we choose to forgo all of those other new business?

Why should we chose to have fewer police officers, worse city services and more crime throughout the entire city just so we can have 5 - 10 new businesses in one very, very small portion of the city?

Why are people in one area of the city more important than people in another area?
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 549
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are no other cultural/entertainment districts within the city of Detroit that highlights black culture like Harmony Park. Black culture being Caribean,Muslim cultures, African, Brazilian or African american.

Specticles clothing store,next to Coaches corner has been there for some 20 odd years, bringing hip hop, urban gear, fashion assessories and live djs on fri/sat nights. Its a cultural magnet.

The New Rino is Harmony Parks hot spot. Serving up southern Foods and live jazz music fills the air on many summer nights.

Lolas cafe, owned by a blk couple right next door to the Rino serves American and southern favorates with live music several nites a week.

Essentials is a little furniture store owned by a black woman that refurbishes old furniture into a funky re-make of the original.

Mens wherehouse has your suits and other menswear.
Harmony cafe is a new blk owned coffee shop.

so why not capitalize on what appears to be having some success. Paradise Valley statues, walk of famous people who performed in the area. Dance schools, art fairs, Food festivals, can make this area blow up in an extablished area that people from many nationalities can appriciate.

And yes, PAradise Valley deserves to be in an up an comming area, spin off bisseness from the games and other downtown activity.

Lets connect the dots that have seperated us for so long in metro detroit. Walking from one lil cultural district to the next will really enhance our walkability and the safety factor .
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2644
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice post, Downtown_remix.

The problem is that you didn't address any of the concerns that others and I have voiced about spending $10 million of our tax dollars on Harmonie Park/Paradise Valley. I don't know if you intended to address any of them not, but you ignored those concerns.

As I pointed out above, for the $10 million price tag that Harmonie Park carries, we could jump start another 100 Detroit based businesses and still have enough money left over to hire another 125 more police officers.

Why are a handful of businesses in a very, very small portion of the city more important than 100 new businesses in the rest of the city?

Why is it okay for Detroit's residents to have to put up with drug deals and shootings on a daily basis?

If the businesses owners in Harmonie Park/Paradise Valley are going to take the position that they are more important than anyone else in this city, why should anyone in this city care what happens to them?

I challenge you, and everyone else who supports the Harmonie Park/Paradise Valley proposal, to answer these questions.

(Message edited by fnemecek on December 04, 2007)
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Miesfan
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Username: Miesfan

Post Number: 102
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I didn't see no one bitching when they had Poletown.



Based upon your syntax I assume you have seen many people "bitching" about Poletown.
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J32885
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Username: J32885

Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read about this in yesterday's Detroit News, seems like an alternative plan to the "African Town" idea. I'm all for it, as long it provides a need for business to come to Detroit, and fill up the empty open spaces downtown. I would like to see more ethnic neighborhoods in Detroit again, and become a fixture in the community.
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Crment
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Username: Crment

Post Number: 43
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just to clear up some mis-conceptions about this project, none of this money is going towards businesses in the area. This money will be spent on sprucing up the area, marketing, and some type of walk of fame. As a business owner in the area, I welcome any marketing scheme to help boost downtown Detroit and the region in general.
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 3865
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to see a detroit walk of fame -- but i don't want one limited in scope, just a walk with people who made a mark on society with detroit roots, from helen thomas to little willie john to whomever
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 10922
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So based upon Cr's comments were people this upset about the city improving the infrastructure in other areas of the city.

Seems to me that people get very excited about other 'sprucing up' projects
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Atwater
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Username: Atwater

Post Number: 130
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Jt1, that's correct, people do. But that's because other 'sprucing up' projects don't have a racial component to them..
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 551
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok good 10 million has been explained. No different then spending 5 million in improvements in mexican town
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Missnmich
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Username: Missnmich

Post Number: 630
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beale Street in Memphis had a lot of government help bringing it back from dereliction (listen to Joni Mitchell's "Furry Sings the Blues"), making what used to be the segregated African-American business district into a viable entertainment venue. (Most southern downtowns limited the hours Blacks could shop on the "Main Street".)

Beale Street is producing much revenue for Memphis today. Let's hope Detroit has similar success.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2647
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Just to clear up some mis-conceptions about this project, none of this money is going towards businesses in the area. This money will be spent on sprucing up the area, marketing, and some type of walk of fame.


The individual businesses may not be the recipients of the funds, but the money is going towards the handful of businesses that are in Harmonie Park because they are the beneficiaries of it.
quote:

ok good 10 million has been explained. No different then spending 5 million in improvements in mexican town.


That is one of the stupidest arguments that I have I have ever heard in my life.

How in the world is spending $5 million to benefit hundreds of businesses the same as spending $10 million to benefit a handful of them?

In order for the two projects to be the same, the Harmonie Park project would have to cost no more than $150,000 as a ratio of dollars spent to businesses served.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 937
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't have a specific comment to make, just a general one, but I think it's important. One of the things Mayor Kilpatrick has done, which I think is critical at this point in our history, is that he has decided to focus a great deal of effort on specific areas of the city, rather than trying to fix everything at once.

I call that "critical" because it is impossible to fix everything at once.

For any use of $10 million I might propose, dozens of you could come up with better uses for that money, and you'd be right, but the thing to keep in mind is the focus.

To quote Frederick the Great, "He who defends everything, defends nothing". We have to start somewhere.
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 134
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They already spent a lot of money putting the park and other infrastructure in Harmonie Park. It is slowly deteriorating because Intermezzo and other businesses weren't viable there. Now there are homeless in the park most of the time. I just don't see rebuilding the infrastructure all over again just to have it deteriorate unless you have 10-12 businesses ready to sign leases. Also, closing any streets to traffic is just dumb. One way people notice new businesses is by driving by. Its worse than being on a dead end street.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2648
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll see Professorscott's general comment and raise him one. Focusing on a particular area or issue is a good idea. However, like any good idea, it can be taken to such an extreme level that it becomes ridiculous.

For example, if I were to propose that the City of Detroit's entire operating budget be spent on my block and my block only, that would be a very focused concentration of resources. It would, of course, be so extreme as to be ridiculous.

The Harmonie Park/Paradise Valley proposal is, in my opinion, so extreme in its focus as it relates to the amount of money spent vs. the number of people/businesses served that it borders on the ridiculous.

The proposal calls for approximately $1 million per business served. Since these are all small retail-based businesses, it's doubtful that they will be able to generate enough economic activity to make it a worthy investment for the city as a whole.
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Crment
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Username: Crment

Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am not sure if I am giving away too much, but according to the plans that were handed out there is also a hotel planned for the area behind the Harmonie Building as well. The professor makes a great point, and there is a sweet spot that you hit when you spend enough money to create an impact and not to much where it becomes ridiculous, as Fn... says.
As far as the racial component, it is more cultural than racial. It will be the celebration of Jazz, Motown Sound, food, free concerts in the park and much more. No matter what color you are, you can certainly find some aspect of the culture that you appreciate.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 1142
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll take it all...except the soul food.

then, I want my potato pancakes, Brats and spaetzle back
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2321
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I'll take it all...except the soul food.



Aww, no chitterlings? Not just a little taste?
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 996
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"then, I want my potato pancakes, Brats and spaetzle back"

I'll take it all except ^^^that (especially the soul food).
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2650
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I am not sure if I am giving away too much, but according to the plans that were handed out there is also a hotel planned for the area behind the Harmonie Building as well.


A hotel behind the Harmonie Building???

You mean the Milner Hotel? That's been there for decades. http://milner-hotels.com/detro it/index.html
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Crment
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Username: Crment

Post Number: 45
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, they had a drawing of a hotel that is in the works for the parking lot in back of the Harmonie Building. I will believe that when I see it.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2439
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fnemecek, I'm sure he meant a hotel where the Madison-Lennox hotels used to be.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2651
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is the proposed hotel a confirmed deal or is it like the apartment complex that was supposed to be built on the Statler Hilton site 3 years ago?

If there is a signed contract with a qualified developer that they will build and open such a hotel if the Harmonie Park/Paradise Valley project moves forward, that would up the value of it considerably. It still wouldn't make it worth $10 million, in my opinion, because that the M-L site is a small one and we'd be lucky to get 50 new jobs out of it. However, it would bring its value up.

What else is the City planning to do with my money to make this worthwhile?

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