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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

Post Number: 147
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With changes to the CBA, a stronger Canadian Dollar and many American teams losing money hand over fist; would now be the best time to move a few teams back to Canada? The recent announcement of the impending sale of the Pittsburg Penguins to the Canadian CEO of Blackberry has heated up talk that they may be on the move to somewhere in Ontario; Hamilton has been mentioned as the most likely place. This then raises the question whether it is feasible to move even more American teams back to Canada; Winnipeg, Quebec City to name a few places. Would anyone know of the teams that are in serious financial trouble (other than Pittsburg) that would consider a move? Florida has been mentioned a few times, as has Tampa; but there has to be more, as something like 6 NHL teams lost more than 20million last year. Who would be the most likely candidates? And are there any other Canadian cities that could be potential destinations? I for one would like to see a few more teams north of the boarder. I have read a lot about the rabid support in Winnipeg for junior teams and the strong base there, as well as their new arena which could house an NHL team. The US having Canadian teams in the South/Southwest is like baseball being played in northern Canada; it just seems odd. It seems like the NHL spends millions of dollars on advertising in places like Nashville, Atlanta, Phoenix, Caroline in order to sell hockey to the people down there. It would make more sense to place teams in hotbeds where this would be unnecessary.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2242
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hamilton will never get a team. The maple Leafs won't let them. Hamilton is within the Maple Leafs marketing territory. The Leafs will veto any attempt to move a team there.

Also while the US teams can't make money who's to say they would make money in Canada. Most of the Canadian cities are way smaller than the American Cities. Even with Canada's devotion to the Game, could you pull enough people willing to pay NHL ticket prices in a tiny market.

The other issue is can you get NHL players to live in Winnipeg? Once they've moved to the southern markets and experienced 50 degree winters, are they willing to move back to winnipeg and and suffer thorugh -40 degree winters? Pronger and his family didn't like the time he spent in Canada last year.
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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

Post Number: 148
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do believe that you could get people to pay NHL prices in places like Winnipeg; the money spent in Carolina and Miami on marketing would offset 15,000 fans at every game with slightly lesser ticket prices; but I also think that the NHL needs to come back down to reality and think slightly smaller. Arena wise, I am talking 15,000 seat arenas not 20,000 that never full up (excluding Detroit, Montreal ect..). 15, 000 is how big the arena in Winnipeg is. Also, players will go to Winnipeg, the majority are still from Canada; besides Russia, Sweden, Norway and the Czech Republic are not really close to Arizona weather: I really don’t think they players will care………..As far as Hamilton; I would not say never. Ontario is on pace to gain 5million people over the next 10 years and the majority of that will be in the Toronto, Hamilton, Kitchener area: if New York and LA can support 2 teams, there is no question the Toronto metro area can………
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 531
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Joe also rarely sells out since the strike.
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Zephyrprocess
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Username: Zephyrprocess

Post Number: 79
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anyone forgetting that Buffalo has a franchise in the Hamilton area, as well?

The problem with downsizing arenas is that there is so little TV money (relatively speaking) to offset the loss in ticket revenues (unlike the Tigers and Lions, for example), even if the Wings don't sell out every night, any more
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Kilgore_south
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Username: Kilgore_south

Post Number: 196
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't know if it will happen (for the above-stated reasons) but I would love to see it. Hell, for me the biggest crime of them all was the Hartford Whalers moving to North Carolina. People in southern New England loved that team.
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Chitaku
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Username: Chitaku

Post Number: 817
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, October 16, 2006 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gary Bettman has ruined the NHL. Once they got rid of the Campbell and Smythe confrences and changed them to west and east. Anyone remember the fox trax puck? lame. I'm sure, Atlanta, Nashville, Dallas, Anaheim, Pheonix, do not need teams. Thanks Bettman for ruining the once proud NHL
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Pdtpuck
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Username: Pdtpuck

Post Number: 219
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 1:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

as something like 6 NHL teams lost more than 20million last year.




According to a blurb in the Hockey News' yearbook, the Lauries (former owners of the St. Louis Blues) claim they lost $289 Million in the seven years they owned the team (1999-2006=41.28 million a year)), but I doubt they will be going anyhwere soon.

An American bought the Canadiens a few years back, and he said he won't be moving them because (something like) "Montreal without the Canadiens is like a day without sunshine!" Tampa, Carolina, Nashville and Phoenix are all building good fan bases (Carolina & Tampa with their recent Cup wins, Nashville for the talent they are bringing to the team (Arnott, Kariya), Phoenix primarily because of Gretzky coaching). If anything, I see teams moving here instead of going back across the border because of the age-old "Canadian dollar being weaker against the US dollar" argument.

As much as I hate hockey in southern and/or warmer climate states (Florida's alternate logo is a hockey stick crossed with a friggin' palm tree in front of the SUN...yeah, palm trees just SCREAM hockey!), I'm afraid it's here to stay. If anything, IMO the NHL needs to contract a little bit!

(Message edited by pdtpuck on October 17, 2006)

(Message edited by pdtpuck on October 17, 2006)
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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

Post Number: 150
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All those things mentioned; recent Stanley Cups,Gretzky, Arnott, Kariya do not spell long term success. They are really trying hard for fan support and have to go out of their way for it: square peg in round hole. In Canada, this would not be needed, as the rabid support and the fans would already be there...thus, round peg in round hole.........also, I HATE Gary Bettman too and agree he has ruined the NHL's mystique. Bring back the Wales/Campbell conferences and old time hockey. He needs to realize hockey is a niche sport in the US; its not going to compete with the NBA and NFL, stop thinking it will
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2245
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tkelly, one thing you are forgetting is the huge number of Northern transplants moving to those southern markets. My Dad moved to Nashville years ago, He began by only going to redwing/predator games. Now he is a Predators season ticket holder. I'm sure if the Predators continue their current winning ways, many ex-Detroiters will become predators fans.

If ex-detroiters take their kids to the games, the kids won't be red wing fans, they will be fans of their local market team. Hockey has the ability to grow in the south. The league will grow if they put a great product on the ice.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 581
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Personally, I hope Pittsburgh stays put (the team I mean, I am sure the city is going nowhere). The Penguins have a lot of history and are in an important US market.

As far as Hamilton getting a franchise -- they will have to deal with Toronto and Buffalo. The cost of paying off the Leafs would be very steep and probably prohibitive. Please, see the following article on Hamilton/Southern Ontario getting a second franchise: http://www.theglobeandmail.com /servlet/story/LAC.20061012.TR UTH12/TPStory/TPSports/?query=

Despite the above article (and the fact that I agree with its assessment -- other than the comments about Toronto getting a second team: the Raptors, Leafs and a second NHL team could not all play in the same rink) there are enough fans in the area to support a team, but it would be a long commute for many fans.

I would think Winnipeg or Quebec City would be the likely Canadian candidates; however, for now the NHL is talking about Las Vegas, Kanas City, and Houston rather than any Canadian city. If the Canadian dollar remains strong, Canadian cities may again be seen on the league's radar. But this will not happen in the immediate future.
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Chitaku
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Username: Chitaku

Post Number: 820
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kansas city had a team and it is now the NJ Devils! Houston had the Aeros with the Howes onthe team. Las Vegas had the ICE IHL team that folded. I love seeing the Joe half empty though. Maybe that asshat Ilitch will lower the prices. 40 dollars for the cheapest seat to a hockey game is obsurd.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2246
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

$40 isn't the cheapest seat. The top 5 rows are $22.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2247
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, just because the seats are empty doesn't mean the ticket wasn't sold. The last few home games have conflicted with Tiger games. I suspect many of the corporate ticket holders used their tiger season tickets instead of the hockey tickets.
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Zephyrprocess
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Username: Zephyrprocess

Post Number: 83
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Houston had the Aeros with the Howes on the team



Now the Hartford Whalers Carolina Hurricanes
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Chitaku
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Username: Chitaku

Post Number: 823
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Still a rip off. Pistons have 10 dollar seats. I went to the ticket office last year and they told me 40 was the cheapest.dirty
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2249
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you think it's a rip off don't buy the tickets. No point in whining about it. Many other people obviously think it's worth it. Many others are willing to pay above face value to go to the games.
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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

Post Number: 153
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Granted I understand the whole transplant theory; but I still do not like it. Hockey is blue collar and has historically catered to the American/Canadian rust belt mentality. I long for the days of Red Wing/Leaf matches that would inevitably end up in fist fights on the ice and in the stands, the parallels to Slapshot and the notion that the players were just like us; the underbelly of society. Nobody could beat the ferocity of the fans; I cannot begin to count the number of times my buddies and I almost threw down in Windsor over a Wings/Leafs conversation or in Chicago invading the Blackhawk’s home turf. The intensity is just not there in Phoenix, Nashville, Atlanta, Anaheim or Miami; I have tried talking trash, but nobody seems to get hot blooded like they do in the north. There was a time you would fear for your life by making an off color comment about any team to one of their fans. I guess what I am trying to say is that the golden era of hockey is over and it hurts. Hockey was such a niche sport that made the fans and communities such an anomaly in the grand sociological analysis of the North American sports fan. Hockey is for die hard fans, not for casually interested parties in Carolina that want to check out this game played on this surface they call ice. I guess this old time hockey has been relegated to the junior circuits and the old timer leagues….a forgone era that was something special while it was around, but fell to the greed and exposure brought on by the Gary Bettmans of the world.…….It will take a while to get myself psyched for a Wings/Predators game, but unfortunately it seems that my hopes for a return to old time hockey is futile.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 582
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hear you TKelly. I personally dislike the fact that there are so many teams in smaller southern markets, i.e. Tampa, Nashville, Raleigh, Anahiem, etc. I don't particularly care for Phoenix, Atlanta or Miami, either.

As long as Gary Bettman heads the NHL he will do whatever it takes to keep these teams viable in their current cities. There is nothing to indicate that he is going to retire anytime soon.

I think it would be great to bring back the Nords and the Jets and the Whalers. However, I would prefer a return to a smaller NHL that only carried 24 teams (or even 28 teams). I still yearn for the days of the Original 21!
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2251
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 9:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Tkelly, hockey hasn't been like that for at least 30 years. It is no longer a Blue collar sport. It's far too expensive for it to be a blue collar sport. Between the cost of equipment and the price of ice time it has slipped into an upper end sport. Basketball and soccer are the sports of the working classes. Sports where all you need is a pair of shorts and a ball.

If you've watched NHL hockey in Toronto or Montreal you would realize it was never a blue collar sport there. It was always a sport for the rich, famous and powerful.

The Stanley Cup was a Lord's punch bowl. Not a drinking mug from a saloon.

Professional Hockey is a business just like all the other professional sports. It is designed to provide entertainment to the masses and make money for the players and team owners. The mistake most people make is that they think professional Sports are not business. Professional sports are the biggest big business of them all. Professional sports are the envy of all other big businesses. What other big business makes their employees and team owners this kind of profit. The teams are going to go to the towns and cities where they think they can make the most money. Canada isn't it.
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Detroitstar
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Username: Detroitstar

Post Number: 236
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"the joe rarely sells out since the lockout"


Have you tried getting tickets for a wings game?

The joe has sold out all but I believe 2 games since the lockout. There is a big difference between fans being in attendance and the number of tickets being sold.
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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

Post Number: 154
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Basketball a blue collar sport? I disagree; I would say the opposite and that professional basketball is the most pompous and arrogant of all the professional sports. A league filled with show boat, self righteous, media whores. I am talking about blue collar in terms of the players; on average the hockey professional brings much more class and humbleness to the sport; that is what connects to the fan and that is what creates the blue collar mentality. We are not talking about which sport is cheaper to play. If the amount it cost to play the sport was being discussed, basketball for sure, but that is not the discussion. Steel workers do not watch the NBA. And yes, I have been to both Montreal and Toronto for games. Hockey there creates an atmosphere that brings the rich and the blue collar together: similar to Detroit. The difference is though that the rich can afford to go to the games, while the blue collar sits around a 19inch TV in the break room.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2253
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Steel workers do not watch the NBA.




Maybe in Ecorse. But Ecorse isn't the entire blue collar world. Step into any auto factory in the country and they'll be talking about basketball.

You have a highly mistaken take on blue collar values. The NBA and NFL are playing directly to your overinflated Blue collar Values. They are leagues filled with the show boat, self righteous, media whores. These are the values those blue collar fans are looking for. The same with Nascar, supercross bikes and pro wrestling. All aimed at the blue collar values crowd.
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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

Post Number: 155
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where did you get Ecorse from? My original point was that hockey has lost the blue collar charm it once had; yes, blue collar America has changed over the past 20 years and that is what I miss (unfortunately, it has changed in its voting pattern too)…….what I meant to say, and it did not come out right, is that hockey had a blue collar aura; something that I do not see in basketball……..
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Hit24sqft
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Username: Hit24sqft

Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sure, Atlanta, Nashville, Dallas, Anaheim, Pheonix, do not need teams. Thanks Bettman for ruining the once proud NHL - Chitaku 10-17-06

hmmm... Dallas sells out quite frequently and has won more Stanley cups than all six Canadian teams put together since 1994....
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Beadgrl
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Username: Beadgrl

Post Number: 59
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, does the NHL really need 31 teams? I was hoping for some team contraction during the lock out. Seriously, does California need 3 teams? Does Florida need 2? The New York and New Jersey need 4 teams combined?

Personally, i don't think so.

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