 
Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd
Post Number: 962
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 11:46 am: |    |
quote:Boxing isn't violent? The Civil Rights struggle wasn't violent? Fighting Max Schmeling or against racism wasn't violent?
What part of non-violent does the fist represent? You can love the gosh darn thing, you can think it is the nicest piece of art in town, but I don't see how anyone can say the fist isn't violent.
Gnome,
Boxing is an athletic sport. It may be considered to be violent, but this isn't the type of violence that was discussed in this thread. |
Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 2208
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 11:55 am: | |
fist good. |
Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd
Post Number: 963
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:01 pm: | |
quote:But the fist is used as a symbol of something, and to deny it is to misunderstand history. It's "easy" to understand the symbolisms embedded in the Confederate battle flag. Why is it difficult to grasp the symbolism and placement of the Fist?
Craig,
You are looking for something that is not there. The Joe Louis Fist is not a symbol of Black Power. It has nothing to do with race. It is a sculpture that was donated by Sports Illustrated, and created by a guy who isn't African American. It is a tribute to Joe Louis. Period. There is no racist aspect. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2974
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:04 pm: | |
You can't expect people from out of town to know that it has anything to do with Joe Louis at first glance.
It's easy to understand why the black power fist is the first thing that comes to many peoples' minds when they see it, irrespective of it pointing sideways, since many people are familiar with the black power first and what it means and looks like, but few people know what Joe Louis' fist looks like
I wish they'd just built a statute of the whole guy rather than just his fist, but I wouldn't advocate getting rid of it
That said, those of you acting like you're totally baffled as to why anyone would see it as a symbol of black power at first glance and not a statue commemorating a boxer are kidding yourselves, or you suffer from a lack of understanding of the world around you |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 299
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:07 pm: | |
Miesfan is correct in the fact that Schmeling was not a Nazi. He and Louis were forever friends after the war, and Schmeling was said to have "helped" Louis out financially for years after, right up until Joe's death. The impact of Joe Louis and his victory was an analogy, at the time, of the defeat of the Third Reich.
Not only do I remember listening to recordings and seeing films of the fights, my dad was a boxer at Wayne State in the late 30's and he lived through the whole affair. He made sure that I understood the significance of what Louis did and I am to this day grateful for the education.
EVERYONE, even all the racists back then, overwhelmingly supported Louis, not because he was African-American and a great fighter, but because he was an AMERICAN, period.
As for his treatment after his win over Schmeling, it is a sad story of racism that continues today, as evidenced by some of the ignorant commentary displayed here. He was "taken" by those who managed him (mostly WHITE guys), and was forced to fight many fights past his prime.He even was a "greeter" at a casino in Vegas as I remember. How humiliating.
It is arguable whether he paved the way for anyone after him though. Times changed, and although Louis was somewhat revolutionary in his time, Jackie Robinson came many years later and under much different circumstances.
In my opinion, Louis would have kicked Muhammed Ali's a$•••••••••• |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 3203
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:16 pm: | |
"those of you acting like you're totally baffled as to why anyone would see it as a symbol of black power"
I don't think anyone is baffled, but there are those *insisting* that's what it is and always will be and it's those people who are obviously projecting their prejudices onto it. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10942
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:26 pm: | |
quote:You can't expect people from out of town to know that it has anything to do with Joe Louis at first glance.
And in the same veing we shouldn't allow people that live here, know the history of it to continue making a racial/black power issue when it is non-existent.
When people like Craig are willing to perpetuate incorrect reasons behind the fist as opposed to explaining to people the true history he is doing a major disservice to the city and showing his true colors at the same time. |
Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd
Post Number: 964
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:44 pm: | |
quote:I'm not trying to denigrate Joe Louis. He was one of the all-time great fighters. Pound-for-pound perhaps only Sugar Ray Robinson was better. For all accounts he was a good man. However I'm not convinced he or his fights had the societal impact you think they did. Moreover you haven't shown anything other than empty rhetoric to demonstrate their societal impact.
Miesfan,
This is a subjective argument that can not be quantified with statistics. There is no way to accurately measure the societal impact of events that happened 70 years ago.
It is certain that Jackie Robinson had a major impact on race relations in America when he broke the color line in baseball.
The story of Jackie Robinson is know by almost every American, and the societal impact is the topic of frequent discussion.
The story of Joe Louis, and his societal impact, is rarely discussed. Most Detroiters couldn't tell you very much about Joe Louis, and most people outside of Detroit don't know anything about him.
-------------
As I stated in my first post, I feel that Joe Louis is probably the most under-appreciated man in the history of American civil rights.
I think that Joe Louis had a major societal impact that is comparable to Jackie Robinson, but it is simply not recognized by most people today.
(Message edited by erikd on December 09, 2007) |
Gsgeorge
Member
Username: Gsgeorge
Post Number: 401
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:55 pm: | |
stupid thread can stop now. |
Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd
Post Number: 965
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 1:04 pm: | |
quote:It's easy to understand why the black power fist is the first thing that comes to many peoples' minds when they see it, irrespective of it pointing sideways, since many people are familiar with the black power first and what it means and looks like, but few people know what Joe Louis' fist looks like
...those of you acting like you're totally baffled as to why anyone would see it as a symbol of black power at first glance and not a statue commemorating a boxer are kidding yourselves, or you suffer from a lack of understanding of the world around you
Thejesus,
I have no problem with tourists and newbies misunderstanding the Fist.
I do have a problem with racist morons talking about the JOE LOUIS FIST on the DETROITYES forum, and calling it a symbol of black power.
It's the JOE LOUIS fist, not the BLACK POWER fist, nor the BLACK PANTHER fist.
(Message edited by erikd on December 09, 2007) |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 671
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 1:21 pm: | |
Quote: "I do have a problem with racist morons talking about the JOE LOUIS FIST"
The problem is, it's not inviting or friendly. In reality it's ugly and looks like it should be in Minsk. Regardless of what or who it stands for. I've seen a lot of cool trinkets in my travels but not all were worthy of display. |
Dannyv
Member
Username: Dannyv
Post Number: 53
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
I know the significance of Joe Louis in American history and how it resonates in inter-racial relations in this country. He's an American hero to me and anyone who felt a sense of empowerment due to his athletic skill and determination. To criticize the Fist statue is not to criticize or diminish Joe Louis' accomplishments. It's merely a personal critique of the statue and how it doesn't work as a tribute to a man who deserved better representation than a dismembered forearm and fist. That the statue sits where it does, in front of the seat of local political power, well, you ask them why it happens to be there. I think it belongs closer to Comerica Park/Ford Field and probably a new hockey arena, where other Detroit sports-related statues may flourish. I like reddog's suggestion best for the Fist. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 302
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 2:10 pm: | |
One of the reasons that I rarely comment on these types of threads is that it all resorts to name calling eventually and ultimaely this drives the races further apart, not accomplishing anything.
I hope you were not referring to me as a hypocrite. Wow, what a judgement on someone you don't even know! And somehow mis-interpreting what I said isn't being a narrow minded racist? I was merely pointing out how quickly our similarities are swept under the rug.
What I meant by my statement was that at that one moment in time, when Louis crushed Schmeling, we were all Americans, not black or white. Funny how that ended so quickly, huh? Same thing happened on 9/11 and it wasn't long before we all went back to our "sides".
The real hypocrisy of all of this is that we are still arguing today about this issue as though Joe Louis were still somehow being discriminated against.
And to insinuate that whites today don't understand history or can't put themselves in a position of being discriminated against at one time or another is just plain rubbish. You are the one that needs a history lesson if that is the case. I don't see a "fist" commemorating any other boxer, black or white, anywhere in the world. Only here. Only for Joe. It is "our" fist, like it or not.
We should not all be judged by a couple of drunk suburbanites with a couple gallons of white paint.
As for Joe Louis leading the way for Jackie Robinson, I sincerely doubt it. Did Louis's defeating Schmeling allow Jackie to rise up in his time? Perhaps he had some influence, but so did Rosa Parks.
In the end, Robinson made it on his ability and so did Joe. The rest of the argument is lost on emotions and not fact.
What exactly does the statement "....you ask them why it happens to be there." mean? Who is them?
Leave it where it is and lets move on. We all have many more serious issues to deal with, and the fist ain't going anywhere soon. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 827
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 2:27 pm: | |
Excellent source of information in this thread, somewhat like the sources of a study. Two especially interesting ideas are the Litmus Test and tourist reaction. To some extent (apparently), there is a difference between the intended reaction, and the actual reaction. The alternative location idea is worth consideration.
It would behoove the leaders, movers, and shakers of Detroit to hear some of the sentiments in this thread. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 303
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 4:09 pm: | |
Miesfan-
My understanding of history is just fine, thank you, despite what you may think. What I meant to imply by saying what I said is that Louis and Robinson were contemporaries, correct(Louis was a boxer from 1939 until his retirement in March of 1949)?
How could Louis led the way at approximately the same time Jackie broke into the league? Perhaps they augmented each other and the black cause, but Louis did not lead the way in anything other than boxing.
I will not apologize for my statement, and I don't expect you to understand what I meant. You seem to have your own idea of how all of us think, so I won't even try.
In regard to my comment about Mrs. Parks, that was meant to imply that the civil rights movement had many contributors, amongst them Louis, Robinson and Parks.
As for your PERSONAL attacks on people here, give it a break. It is most tiring......
And by the way, keep your opinions about me to yourself, unless you care to do something more than hide behind your computer insulting others for their opinion. Next time you want to attack me, do it on the entire record of what I am saying, not some one-liner that you have refered to so far out of context. This is a discussion about getting rid of the fist, not my opinions.
Speaking of a lack of historical knowledge, Robinson made his major league debut with the Dodgers in 1947, not 1945. He did not receive his discharge from the military until early 1945.Prior to that he played only in the minors and the Negro leagues.
"...Robinson made his Major League debut on April 15, 1947, playing first base when he went 0 for 3 against the Boston Braves." (Rothe, Anna, ed. Current Biography, Who's News and Why 1947, H.W. Wilson Co, New York, 1948) |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 563
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 4:24 pm: | |
Eric - the fist is only a fist, like sometimes a cigar is only a cigar? Maybe, but wouldn't you agree that the '36 olympics were framed as something much more than international athletic competition (Olympiad, anyone?)?
It's naive to believe that art is not infused with ideology, and it's delusional to overlook perversions of ordinary things into political symbols. Again, I reference Chafets' "Devils' Night" for a cogent interpretation of the fist. Cite similar references for the political neutrality of the Fist and we can adjourn to read & reflect before taking this up as more than name-callers. |
Texorama
Member
Username: Texorama
Post Number: 114
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 4:38 pm: | |
I believe the sculptor, Robert Graham, is white. He's known for monumental urban sculptures with no particular political orientation; he's also done a sculpture of Charlie Parker in Kansas City that's somewhat comparable to the fist. He's married to Anjelica Huston. During the vandalism episode a few years ago he said he was pleased that the sculpture still aroused such strong reactions, as I recall. |
Dhugger
Member
Username: Dhugger
Post Number: 287
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:49 pm: | |
I love the FIST. To me it says 'welcome to Detroit'. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 673
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 8:11 pm: | |
A clenched fist is traditionally used to symbolize power and solidarity. |
Detroitinmyheart
Member
Username: Detroitinmyheart
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 11:24 pm: | |
Leave Joe and his fist alone.
The man brought together a nation and made us not only proud of him but proud to be "Americans" at one of the world's most turbulent points in history.
Its too bad he and Max could'nt continue repeating their historic moment god knows this country needs that "American Pride" and not this nonsense going on lately. |
Exmotowner
Member
Username: Exmotowner
Post Number: 434
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 7:04 am: | |
Its all perception. A lot of people perceive it to be a racist statement. That cannot be denied and the reason a lot of people want to deny that fact is because they know excatly how its perceived and are VERY happy that it is seen as a reminder that detroit is a black city and is meaning to stay that way. This argument has really been beat to death. To many people it is a symbol of racism. Whether the african-american community choses to admit it or not - that IS how it is percieved by a LOT of people. We all know very clearly what it means. That being said, no other city greets its visitors with a clinched fist. I dont care if God himself made it and paid for it. It IS perceived as a racist statement by a LOT of people. (you cant argure with perception) If it was a white fist, the black community would be rioting over it. And Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be all over it! One thing for sure, it is not a welcoming symbol for a city that is begging for residents. IMO! |
Pamequus
Member
Username: Pamequus
Post Number: 136
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 8:54 am: | |
A clenched fist has always represented anger, hatred and violence. I have always hated it. |
Aoife
Member
Username: Aoife
Post Number: 46
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 11:44 am: | |
I agree with Pamequuus. I was shocked the first time I saw it- it seemed more than a bit menacing.
Symbolism or not, aesthetically it is a horror show. Joe Louis deserves a better tribute than a gigantic floating fist. But to each his own, I guess. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2339
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 12:00 pm: | |
Here's a thought, the next time someone asks what the fist is supposed to represent, respond that it's a tribute to Joe Louis. Joe Louis was a famous boxer. Boxers use their fist to fight. Hunters use their guns to hunt.
The responses on this thread have gone beyond silly. I can point to dozens of abandoned buildings that leave a much more lasting impression on visitors than that damn sculpture, whether they misinterpret the sculpture's intent or not.
Btw, one would have to be really ignorant to interpret that as a black power fist. |
The_ed
Member
Username: The_ed
Post Number: 1392
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 12:17 pm: | |
The fact that the fist is NOT pointed "straight up" to the sky should lead people to know
that it does not represent Black Power. To me it looks like an over-hand right to the jaw
of Schmeling.
|
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 4089
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 12:23 pm: | |
"Here's a thought, the next time someone asks what the fist is supposed to represent, respond that it's a tribute to Joe Louis. Joe Louis was a famous boxer."
That's amazing. My dad told me that exact same thing when I was young. And all this time I went on thinking that's what it meant, until some angry person said otherwise. |
Exmotowner
Member
Username: Exmotowner
Post Number: 435
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 12:28 pm: | |
Joe Louis stadium and the sculpture of him is a tribute, Joe Louis Ave. is a tribute to him. The fist is an insult to me. Whether you think Im ignorant or not. I see it promoting violence, and it tells visitors that detroit is a very violent black city. Art is perception, and I perceive it to be an insult. You dont like my opinion? Tuff SHIT. I dont like the fist and think it does WAY more harm to Detroit than it does to uplift Joe Louis. If it is a boxing symbol, wheres the glove? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2341
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 12:32 pm: | |
If it is a boxing symbol, wheres the glove?
It's not a boxing symbol, it's a tribute to Joe Louis. What's so fucking hard to understand about that? You are right about two things, I don't like your opinion and I do think you're ignorant. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 678
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 12:41 pm: | |
It's a controversial piece of art. The artist was probably hoping for that. It's getting his name mentioned.
It should be at the JL arena. And yes it should have a glove on it. A full body sculpture would've been more complimentary. This is like honoring a Kick-boxer with a giant foot. |
Spitty
Member
Username: Spitty
Post Number: 643
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 12:46 pm: | |
"A clenched fist has always represented anger, hatred and violence. I have always hated it."
not anymore...
Fist pound
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Fist bump)
A fist pound, (also fist bump, pound it, pounds, knock's, bones, the rock, respect knuckles, knucks, daps, tater, bro, or props as in proper recognition) is a type of friendly gesture similar to a hand shake or a high five. It is performed by two people tapping their fists lightly, so should not be confused with a common variant of the game Bloody Knuckles.
A pound also can be known as a symbol of giving of respect. Fist pounds can also be followed by various other hand and body gestures, but are part of a dap greeting. |