Discuss Detroit Archives - January 2008 If you build it (a streetcar)... Previous Next
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 178
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 9:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In Seattle, Amazon announced that they are moving their headquarters to several buildings along the just-opened South Lake Union Streetcar line. I fully understand that this deal certainly has been in the works for some time, and who knows what role the plans for the streetcar line had in the negotiations. But, still...
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1706
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 9:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GRAVEL-VOICED CARHEAD: That kind of stuff might work in every other city in the world, but in Detroit, we love our CARS! And we don't have money to throw away on transportation that won't pay for itself! Bla bla bla bla!

;)
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 179
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 9:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

News article:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ business/344495_amazon22.html

Reader comments
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ soundoff/comment.asp?articleID =344495
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 180
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 9:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the motto for transit in this region should be, "Start Somewhere!"
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Hudkina
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Username: Hudkina

Post Number: 83
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 9:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If we are going to subsidize cars by building roads, highways, parking lots, etc. we need to subsidize other forms of transporation as well. People need to realize that the most expensive form of transportation by far is the personal automobile. I'm all for raising gas taxes and charging tolls on all "freeways" and interstates.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 598
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 11:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hudkina, a balanced transportation system like what you proposed in your post is essential and in fact required to get federal funding. Please comment on my website in DETROIT LINKS on this forum under Trainman's Save..., if you please.

I just updated it to make things more clear that I'm opposed to the new freeway expansions without first protecting mass transit as essential.

It is discrimination to not support the transportation needs of everyone especially for those who cannot drive because it is immoral as explained in detail to educate the voting public.
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Professorjackson
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Username: Professorjackson

Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 6:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For the past three months I have been living in Lodz, Poland. It is not a beautiful or thriving or touristy city, but it does have about 800,000 people. There have been ups and downs. I'm only here for another month or so, so I'm beginning to notice the ups more than the downs.

One of the big ups is public transportation. I've never lived in a city where I relied on it before (I've only lived in Detroit, and now Toledo). I can get most places I want to go by tram or bus. I love the trams. They don't run as late as I think they should, some of them are very old (1950s for sure), they're not all heated, there's some grafitti. But they usually can ge me where I want to go, and if they can't a bus can. If I've had a few drinks: no worries. Carrying a ton of groceries would suck, but I just buy less at one time, and more frequently.

Anyway, this is a long way of pointing out that a poor, post-industrial Polish city can get transportation basically right, and my cities can't. And even though my cities are relatively poor on US standards, they're wealthy compared to this one.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 5847
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 3:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A good streetcar story is Portland, Oregon. So popular are the streetcars, with Czech rolling stock, the Oregon Iron Company will be buiding them for the USA again soon. Imagine that, American-built streetcars again.

Portland runs their streetcars on the honor system with no conductors. The motorman doesn't mess with fares. They are basically packed out with nobody remembering to pay.

jjaba.
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Reddog289
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Username: Reddog289

Post Number: 158
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 3:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

when i used to have a night life i wished that they still had streetcars. yet even now i,d love to see them, even though it probably won,t happen here in Detroit.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 464
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 9:09 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You mean the former South Lake Union Trolley line?

Ride the SLUT!
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Russix
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Username: Russix

Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 2:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit's decline began with the destruction of public transportation system. It's revival will be marked by its reopening. If the bus was so great, why isn't everybody riding it?
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Jeduncan
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Username: Jeduncan

Post Number: 164
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 11:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol @ El_jimbo
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 184
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 12:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was in Seattle this week, and my hotel room in Lower Queen Anne overlooked the SLUT line, four block away. I was able to see the trolly-- I mean streetcar-- and monitor the NEXTBus site for realtime GPS positioning of the cars. It actually worked pretty well. The website was maybe 30 seconds behind the actual location of the cars. If you have wireless mobile, you'd know exactly if you have enough time to grab that double decaf grande skinny vanilla latte before the car gets to your stop.

Seriously, though, it looks like a nice system. There are two streetcars, red and blue, which are indicated in color on the NEXTbus site. The line is about a mile and a half long, running roughly north-south from Belltown north of downtown to the east end of Lake Union. A group of developers decided the area was ripe for redevelopment five years ago or so, and started building. It was an area of small industrial businesses, like machine shops, automotive and marine repair, etc. New high-density housing is already sprinkled around the area, with plenty more under construction. Novel idea-- developers who aren't demanding that they own every square inch of the area before they start their projects! Imagine that. There are still plenty of parking lots, and that end of town between Seattle Center (Space Needle, Music Experience, Key Arena, SciFi Museum) is the most crazy mishmash of busy arterial streets you've ever seen. The four blocks between the hotel and the streetcar are almost impassible by foot: Aurora Ave. is a north south state highway that is basically Telegraph Road in a 100 foot right of way, with a GM barrier between opposing lanes for miles. There are a few pedestrian underpasses that are far between. Denny Way is south of the hotel, but it goes below grade to go under Aurora, so it cuts off pedestrian traffic for three blocks either side of Aurora. That whole part of town is dedicated to getting people out of downtown and onto Aurora or I-5. But the new construction in the neighborhood shows that things are changing. Detroit is not the only city to have made bad mistakes in order to satisfy the needs of the automobile, but in Seattle you can see concrete changes swinging things back toward a human scale.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 5856
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 12:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Parkguy, excellent report. Not only is walking a bitch, you'ver gotta fight the rainy weather of Seattle. Otherwise, a lovely progressive city.

Some other cities with streetcars include San Jose, Portland, New Orleans, and Salt Lake City. People love to watch them from cafes and coffee shops, work and live near them. True, they do spur development, unlike buses.

Is Seattle willing to let people on and off without tickets? The Portland Steetcar is run as a free service, de facto. You are supposed to pay but nobody is there to enforce it,and downtown is already FARELESS SQUARE anyways.
jjaba.
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Hamtragedy
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Username: Hamtragedy

Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2007 - 2:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote
"I think the motto for transit in this region should be, "Start Somewhere!"

I've been telling people for years who keep saying "it will never happen" to change that tune to "IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN"
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 186
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 12:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are a couple of pictures of "The S.L.U.T." in Seattle. They were taken early on Saturday morning. There were plenty of riders on the cars even at that hour. One shows the tracks in the street (side location rather than center along this part of the line), and the other shows one of the cars turning a corner. Note the new buildings. There have to be at least a dozen new multi-story buildings going up within a block of the line.

Rails in Street

New Seattle Streetcar
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 986
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 2:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Parkguy,

The development along a permanent guideway transit line is to be expected. Our research shows that typically $8 in new development occurs for every $1 spent on such a line.

Sigh.

Professor Scott
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 4682
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 3:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Our research shows that typically $8 in new development occurs for every $1 spent on such a line.

Does your research include development in ghost towns? Not all communities are alike. What makes you so certain that the results from a vibrant city would transfer over to a dying (dead) location?

And if that is the case, why not have the developers pay for all of the damn thing too? After all, it's a shoo-in, right?
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3844
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 9:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Does your research include development in ghost towns? Not all communities are alike.



In other words, Livernoisyard would like to have an escape clause for Detroit, since he doesn't have any confidence in his own city.

quote:

And if that is the case, why not have the developers pay for all of the damn thing too? After all, it's a shoo-in, right?



For the same reasons that developers don't pay for freeways and roads--public infrastructure is a basic responsibility of government.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 187
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 10:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Professorscott, I totally agree. And the first post in this thread says it all. For habitual naysayers, the issue is not about whether Seattle is more lively than Detroit-- they are different cities with different needs. The South Lake Union district was targeted for developement before the streetcar line was planned. What the fixed rail system there has done has FOCUSED the development. The development ALONG THE LINE is obvious, and if it helps a company that is exploring relocating and expanding make a decision to locate there, all the better.

A streetcar is probably not what we need in Detroit, but light rail probably is. At some point a streetcar may make sense in some areas of Detroit-- who knows?
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 188
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 11:01 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a hotel window view of the north end of the streetcar line, marked in orange. Green circles highlight new construction projects along or within two blocks of the line. This is just based on my quick observation, not hard data. I just counted the cranes and construction sites.

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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 189
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 11:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, and my highlights show right through buildings, too.
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 1243
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 11:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Parkguy wrote, "A streetcar is probably not what we need in Detroit, but light rail probably is."

Streetcars *are* light rail. You might be thinking of multiple-car rail transit on dedicated right of way. Some people define that as light rail, and some don't. But it's closer to "heavy" (freight/Amtrak) rail than streetcars are.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 190
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 12:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You've got me there. By "streetcar" I meant slower systems that move with auto traffic and make frequent stops. I usually think of light rail as being more of a moderately rapid transit system that may use a street right of way, but stops less frequently like a subway system would.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 5875
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 1:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You can combine light rail that runs on separated right-of-way out of downtown and then runs on city streets downtown. Some cities are set up purposely like that such as Portland, Ore.
That's how the old Interurbans were placed.

The Seattle line using Czech rolling stock could have been financed by the adjacent land owners, using a Halo effect. Halo means that you tax several streets back from the line in decreasing amounts since they will benefit from the new transit too. Although Govt. pays aplenty, adjacent developers will gain so much from it, they are willingto pony up too.

Does the Seattle streetcar run on Fareless or has conductors collecting fares? On new Canal Street line in New Orleans, the fares are collected by the motorman at the door and it takes forever to get anywhere. Maybe that's why they call it, Big Easy, 15 kids in line pushing an shoving to get through a keyhole. It is very slow going indeed.

jjaba.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 987
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 1:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some of the modern lines do fare collection at machines at the loading platform, so you pay before you board. That eliminates the Canal Street problem Jjaba refers to.

Burnie is correct, a streetcar is one kind of light rail, and Parkguy accurately describes the difference in how people perceive the terms. Detroit could use just about anything IMVHO.

Happy new year to all,
Prof. Scott
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Gsgeorge
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Username: Gsgeorge

Post Number: 526
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 2:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those interested, my Google Map of the proposed DTOGS Light Rail system can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/2matdh

Just think of the development the Woodward line would spark north of Grand Blvd where the city is in need of some major help. And Midtown would improve by leaps and bounds. The Michigan line would bring in visitors and workers from Dearborn. There is no good reason NOT to build this.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 191
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007 - 5:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jjaba--
Fares are collected on board, and you can use passes and transfers. Here's a link:
http://www.seattlestreetcar.co m/about/
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Russix
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Username: Russix

Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 5:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I came up with a cheap, dirty and ugly way to rapidly deploy this, but it does eliminate the capital cost of rails and rolling stock. This is also a temporary measure, maybe just enough to prove its viability and encourage expansion/funding. The stations could be built by by dropping down some concrete construction dividers and the track lines painted into the roadway. The temp streetcars could be stretch buses leased or borrowed, or even existing buses in operation. Traffic lights could be retimed for the trips and given radio receivers to hold green lights for approaching psuedotrains. The City of Detroit could setup the temporary infrastructure, and SMART could operate their buses on it(SMART is already mostly limited stops in the city as of current). Portland spent $63 million(57 million locally raised) to build their initial 5 mile streetcar loop. I have a bad feeling that this will never materialize in Detroit unless you say look here it is, it works.

(Message edited by russix on January 12, 2008)

(Message edited by russix on January 12, 2008)
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Hudkina
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Username: Hudkina

Post Number: 91
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 7:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem is that people wouldn't ride that. That would seem even more "ghetto" than a regular bus route...
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Mwilbert
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Username: Mwilbert

Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 8:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I disagree with the previous post--limited-stop buses running in dedicated lanes with traffic control priority would be much faster than conventional bus service, and could be distinguished in other ways (bus size/styling, seating, wifi, etc.)

It has two main drawbacks:

1) It doesn't have the cachet of a train.
2) It still uses diesel, unless you use CNG, which might be a decent option.

Otherwise, it can be a good solution. You might be interested in this article http://urbanhabitat.org/node/3 44 describing the system in Curitiba, Brazil.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 199
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 10:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Russix--
I wonder how much it would cost to put in the transmitter system for the lights? It seems like it would be a fairly fast system to install and get running. You might have to have a pretty strict "don't block the box" enforcement to keep backed-up cross-street traffic from blocking the lanes, as in NYC. Even if we get light rail on one corridor, it would be great to see something like this going on lots of other routes. And I think you're right-- it would be a good demonstration of why a certain line might rate an upgrade to rail. And I think you'd definitely see flourishing neighborhoods within six blocks of each station.
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Dalangdon
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Username: Dalangdon

Post Number: 151
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 12:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Seattle system was not without controversy: The mastermind behind all of the south Lake Union development (Microsoft Billionaire Paul Allen) first tried to get the city to create a huge park that would link downtown to Lake Union, with condos all along, but the voters wouldn't go for that - so he bought up all the property and did it himself - sans the park.

The streetcar line is, I believe, financed by a local property tax, but I'm not sure about that. I do know that there were some huge glitches in the start-up that could have been avoided if the Mayor's office hadn't been involved and the actual city departments had been allowed to do their job, but it turned out OK in the end.

I wouldn't be surprised if people are riding the SLUT for free, as we don't really enforce fares on the regular buses, but I haven't had a chance to check that out yet, so I don't know.

We're currently in the midst of building a regional light rail system which is taking longer and costing more than we originally thought, but I'm not really bothered by that: Any kind of grand public works project that is being built through some of the most expensive real estate in the country is bound to have those problems, and it will all be worth it when it's done. We should have done it thirty years ago.
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Russix
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Post Number: 61
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 3:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.wired.com/science/d iscoveries/news/2005/08/68507 MIRTs have been around for awhile. I think you would want to try and time the lights as best you can and use the MIRT to hold a green light for a delayed bus to pass. You don't see the level of traffic blocking here as you do in NYC, not even close. The question is left turns? Do you floridize the left turn lanes?
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Parkguy
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Post Number: 201
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Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 11:01 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Russix--
Freeing up the left turn lane was one of the major selling points when Detroit scrapped the streetcars decades ago. There would be options to replace left turns at some cross streets, but it looks like they've planned left turn lanes even along the light rail lines outlined in DTOGS web site.
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Dbest
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Username: Dbest

Post Number: 61
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 3:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We will see how feasible Grand Rapids purposed 68 million light rail plan is in not all that long, not to mention there city officials are going to be visiting Portland shortly to see first hand the development on and around the system. I think its key to have investors who want to build on land around the tracks and if you can line up more than one than the heat gets turned up so to speak.
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Bob
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Post Number: 1638
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Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 3:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I remember Grand Rapids built their downtown bus station with expansion/conversion to a downtown light rail line.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 202
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Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 6:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grand Rapids has had great voter support for "The Rapid," which is their transit system. They voted in a tax increase two years ago to expand and update the bus system, and I think it was adopted by a comfortable margin. Which brings up the question: Why won't the state let the Detroit Metro area vote on the same thing? Beyond the usual claims of bashing on the city, I think it is because the Republicans KNOW that it will pass, and they can't stand the thought that a majority of us would choose to support it.
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Dbest
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Username: Dbest

Post Number: 62
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Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 6:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Parkguy thats a good question you pose and your thoughts are interesting. Its kind of a shame when comparing our states largest transit systems and the step backwards taken by Detroit. This leads me to wonder if A. Grand Rapids will be the first city in Michigan to get the go ahead to install a system(the downtown area is lively and populated)in there area.

And on the flip side b. Would the emergence of a light rail system(aprox.5.8 miles 68 mill.) in Grand Rapids HELP or Hinder Detroit's chance of getting a system.

If it were to flop in Grand Rapids would the state be even more reluctant to aid Detroit in building a bigger system?
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 4832
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Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 7:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

If it were to flop in Grand Rapids would the state be even more reluctant to aid Detroit in building a bigger system?

Translated: we already know that LRT would fail in Detroit. But we should build it anyway.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 203
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 7:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Apparently the first starts federal funding will go toward a BRT system to connect suburbs to Grand Rapids. The map on this linked page shows another proposed downtown streetcar system, which is roughly the size of the people mover in Detroit.

http://greatlakesguy.blogspot. com/2007/12/finally-michigan-g ets-small-start.html

I don't know how set-in-stone this is. One thing that I think is vastly different between the proposed DTOGS Detroit system and the proposed Grand Rapids circulator, Portland Streetcar, the Seattle S. Lake Union Streetcar is that the Detroit system is not a downtown circulator. We already have one of those! You can't compare the downtown-only lines with Portland MAX or the new Sound Transit (Seattle) light rail to SEATAC. They are metro-scale systems and a whole different animal. The system just announced in GR is more of a real transit system that could have some comparison to the DTOGS system-- but I hope we don't have to wait for it to be up and running before we can proceed with getting federal money.
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Sludgedaddy
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Username: Sludgedaddy

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 8:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hudkina, a streetcar would rather be an upgrade of riding the "Iron Pimp". It could then be refered to as riding the "Electric Pimp".
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Detourdetroit
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Username: Detourdetroit

Post Number: 361
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 10:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In "old growth" Detroit, mainly within the Boulevard, I see a reintroduced streetcar working very very well and providing great impetus for building additional residential development linked to hospital/educational/cultural/ entertainment/office anchors of Downtown and Midtown. The system I see wouldn't go anywhere near Livernois :-)
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 1083
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 2:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why won't the state let the Detroit Metro area vote on the same thing? Beyond the usual claims of bashing on the city, I think it is because the
quote:

Republicans KNOW that it will pass, and they can't stand the thought that a majority of us would choose to support it.




I'd agree that the GOP has been a major hindrance, but the Dems control the House and haven't done a damn thing. Why hasn't the tax or DARTA legislation been reintroduced?
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Dbest
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Username: Dbest

Post Number: 67
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 5:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the article link parkguy

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