  Yeti Member Username: Yeti Post Number: 20 Registered: 09-2007 |
http://www.mlive.com/news/anna rbornews/index.ssf?/base/news- 25/11982516459410.xml&coll=2 Highlights: Washtenaw county has thrown a bucketload of money at the project. UofM and the EPA will pay fairs for workers. Livingston County thinks it will go broke in three years. For everyone that throws around light rail discussion here on the forums, this is the most realistic and most likely to happen in the area in the next 10 years. And I have to wonder if its really viable. | ||
Davidruffin Member Username: Davidruffin Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2007 |
I can't believe they honestly think they will get 1,700 people riding this thing on a daily basis. Even if all of the 1,200 U of M employees in the Howell area used this they would still need another 500 people to get to the 1,700 number which would still only fund half of its operating expense of $4.8 million. Why waste the money on consultants, its pretty apparent this would be a huge failure, even if they had gotten the federal grant. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 488 Registered: 08-2006 |
Stupid if you ask me, especially if it stops on Plymouth Road 2 miles outside of downtown. What's the point? If it came to downtown AA it might work. I say put the money towards the AA-Detroit line, which would have more riders than they would know what to do with. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 392 Registered: 04-2004 |
^ I agree. I'm in full support for transit. But a line that stops at Plymouth road? What good does that do? Despite backups up 23, people are mostly satisfied driving to work, especially U of M employees who will pay extra money for blue passes instead of using cheaper park and rides, and they don't seem to mind living way out in the middle of Livingston County either. Stick a survey in front of them asking if they are willing to take a train and they will likely say yes, but in reality they wont. | ||
Rfban Member Username: Rfban Post Number: 226 Registered: 02-2004 |
Remember, "we need to start somewhere?" I am not for this line but perhaps it will get southeastern Michigan thinking positively about public transit. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3836 Registered: 10-2003 |
A feasibility study is always a rational idea. I think pre-emptively shooting it down, though, is fairly short-sighted. If you think about it, 1700 passengers is close to the hourly capacity of one freeway lane (assuming a passenger-per-vehicle ratio close to 1.0). Certainly it's cheaper to implement a commuter rail line than to build another lane each direction on U.S. 23. Also bear in mind that there haven't been any "complete failures" of new commuter rail lines in the past couple decades--if it can work in Albuquerque, it would likely be successful in Ann Arbor as well. quote: Did you ask any of these people how much they enjoy their commute? Maybe some of them would actually *like* the option of not driving to work? As far as UM and the EPA subsidizing fares--many employers already subsidize transit fares through the federal qualified transit benefit (up to $115/mo. in 2008). In fact, federal agencies are required to offer this benefit, per executive order of President Clinton. I guess I'm not understanding the need to prematurely shoot this plan down as a terrible idea and "too expensive". What's your alternative? | ||
Texorama Member Username: Texorama Post Number: 119 Registered: 12-2006 |
As far as I know, this would stop at the Ann Arbor railroad station, four blocks north of downtown and the U-M campus, and less to the medical center. The line runs along Plymouth and might stop there, but that wouldn't be the final stop. The downtown employers have often found it makes sense to pony up for bus passes, and they might easily do so for this as well. U.S. 23 is a nightmare, especially outbound at rush hour, and it's not just Howell that would affected--it's the Brighton area, which is growing rapidly as a bedroom community to AA, with no road relief in sight. I think this is worth a shot and hope it goes through. If gas prices rise some more, which seems very likely (remember, last year at this time we were down to $2.30 or so), it would get national attention. | ||
Yeti Member Username: Yeti Post Number: 21 Registered: 09-2007 |
I think this would work a lot like DC's Metro for the people that live in Virgina and work in downtown DC. People can drive to the train stop and leave their cars. If there is a stop in Howell, Brighton, and Northfield Township, people that work in downtown Ann Arbor would use it, as long as they could ride the bus from the train to work. It will be used on Football Saturdays too. It all depends on how well the buses in Ann Arbor can handle getting these people to their office, because 23 just plain sucks. But the key is that last mile, and if the surbanites want to ride the bus with the students. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3837 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^Commuter rail is *very* different from the DC Metro. Think more like Chicago's Metra, or the LIRR. | ||
Yeti Member Username: Yeti Post Number: 22 Registered: 09-2007 |
Sorry, bad analogy. How I was trying to make the comparison was that people drive to the train station, park, ride the train to work. Similar in that aspect. There will need to be a big parking lot in Brighton. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3838 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Understood. Bear in mind, though, that the park-and-ride component is only a small fraction of Metro's ridership. Commuter rail is better suited for a paradigm where most rider access is via park-and-ride. Back to the thread.... | ||
Elsuperbob Member Username: Elsuperbob Post Number: 106 Registered: 03-2007 |
I agree with GSGeorge... This goes from nowhere to nowhere through nowhere. It could possibly be a success but it very likely could be a failure. And if it's a failure it could set back other projects in the works in Southeast Michigan by giving the nay-sayers fodder to use. I don't know how many people will want to get off way out there and then probably have access to only a few bus lines. It seems too specialized to appeal to large numbers of commuters or visitors. Texorama, the line that comes down 23 does not connect to the Ann Arbor train station. It crosses the Huron River at Argo Park and crosses above the tracks connecting to the station. I think the old stop for Ann Arbor on this line was what is now a daycare center between William and Jefferson on 1st. Now if they continued the line into downtown and built a platform down around Liberty or William I think it would work better. There people could walk to work downtown or catch the link or walk the few blocks to the Blake Transit Center and catch a bus to where they need to go anywhere in Ann Arbor. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 490 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote: Elsuperbob is right. If this is gonna work, they need a platform somewhere btw William and Kingsley. Why hop on a bus at Plymouth Road if it means you might need to transfer to another bus again at the Transit Center to reach work? If it stops downtown, the Link takes you almost everywhere on Central Campus, or you could -- GASP!•••• WALK TO WORK from the platform! For those up on North Campus, UM could extend their bus lines. And finally AA transit could service the station too. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1236 Registered: 11-2003 |
The reason this commuter train would terminate/originate out on Plymouth Rd. is that the ownership of the line changes at that point. From there northward, the state owns the track and Great Lakes Central RR leases/operates it. South of the spot on Plymouth Rd., Ann Arbor Acquisition Corp. (d/b/a Ann Arbor RR) owns and operates the line. GLC RR has been very accomodating with the commuter train idea, but the AA RR has not expressed one bit of interest in allowing the commuter train on its segment of the line. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 496 Registered: 08-2006 |
AA RR is not thinking smart then. Wouldn't they get paid anyway? I hardly ever see trains on that line anyway. | ||
Texorama Member Username: Texorama Post Number: 120 Registered: 12-2006 |
Yup ... I take it back--misread the original article. That spot they have in mind on Plymouth isn't within walking distance of anything. The line does later go straight through downtown Ann Arbor, and it's flanked by parking lots. Gotta be the way to go somehow. | ||
Transitrider Member Username: Transitrider Post Number: 29 Registered: 01-2007 |
Yep, AARR is the holdup preventing this from going downtown. The Plymouth Rd stop would likely only be temporary until AARR comes to their senses and realizes leasing trackage for passenger service is good for their dwindling freight business. The city and county are not pleased with their total lack of cooperation during other city planning projects, but they've always been just outside of public scrutiny. This won't last with all the focus on transit planning in Washtenaw County. AATA is involved in the process and would provide the connector buses, which actually can extend the usefulness of the service, as people can hop on a bus that not only takes them downtown, but to all the office parks south and north of town. Although they've been reluctant to commit, Livingston County will benefit greatly from this. The area has been sprawling out of control, and longtime residents are growing tired of all the expensive infrastructure expansion that benefits all the new greenfield development without fixing the downtowns of the older villages. Howell and Brighton stand to benefit greatly from this as they try to attract downtown residents and businesses (the trains run both ways, after all.) This commuter service can help preserve the quality of life that has attracted so many people to the county in the first place. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 503 Registered: 08-2006 |
Great post transitrider. Hopefully the counties and the residents are thinking the same way as you. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 181 Registered: 04-2007 |
Howell/Brighton/South Lyon is now its own urban census area. That region has grown and sprawled out of control. Try to navigate the Grand River/Latson Road area during afternoon drive time, and you'll see what I mean. Much of that traffic is US-23 traffic headed from Ann Arbor, and the highway is choked during commutes. They've done preliminary studies, and feel that ridership would be fine. Originally, the line was set for the recently-completed highway construction project, but it couldn't get going in time. They feel it would be successful regardless of construction problems. Remember, U-M has one of the major transportation study centers in the country-- they know how to handle the statistic, and what to take into consideration when looking at the numbers. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 393 Registered: 04-2004 |
"Did you ask any of these people how much they enjoy their commute? Maybe some of them would actually *like* the option of not driving to work?" You're correct. I shouldn't base any information off a survey done by students not long ago. But there is a difference between people thinking it's a good idea and actually using the system. Don't get my wrong, I'm in full support of mass transit, but it would be even better for downtown Ann Arbor to be a part of this, and perhaps an easier link to the University. I'm not sure how far along the University's plan for a intercampus LRT or BRT system is to possibly make a Plymouth road connection even more convenient for the city's largest employer. (Message edited by wolverine on December 22, 2007) | ||
Yeti Member Username: Yeti Post Number: 23 Registered: 09-2007 |
No new info here - just a source. Great Lakes Central Railroad, owned by Farmington Hills-based Federated Capital Corp., leases the 30-plus miles of track earmarked for the line and is providing 10 refurbished stainless-steel passenger cars for the route. The cars will have wireless Internet, beverages, light snacks and newspapers. No progress has been made in talks with Howell-based Ann Arbor Railroad, which owns the mile of track inside the city, Rogers said. The rail company has said it prefers to stick to freight traffic instead of passenger service. http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0910/SUB/709100304/1033/toc This guy makes a few food points too... http://republicanmichigander.blogspot.com/2007/07/jurassic-pork-ann-arbor-to-howell.html (Message edited by yeti on December 22, 2007) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3839 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: It's this sentiment that is so problematic for Southeastern Michigan. The best way to paraphrase it is in the words of a former coach of mine: "You can't go out there and try to not lose. You have to go out there to win." If this is a truly rotten idea, a study will bear that out. Detroit (and Michigan) seem to be afraid of success. How's that working out? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2426 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: It seems to be working as planned. | ||
Elsuperbob Member Username: Elsuperbob Post Number: 107 Registered: 03-2007 |
It's funny how you can quote someone, Dan, and not have read a word they said. I'll restate it. If this were going downtown then I think it would be far more appealing. But as of now it seems destined to go from one parking lot to another, unless the AARR sees some common sense. It also seems too specialized for UofM employees who would probably get a direct Blue Bus route to the campuses while others might have to make multiple transfers, which on the AATA can be quite a hassle with the limited number of buses per hour. Add to that the fact that Livingston County is so hesitant about the project. Why start with one party so hesitant? That would be like one player taking to the field saying,"I'm not really sure I want to play today..." So I'm saying why not start off where there are riders, like GSGeorge said, on the Ann Arbor-Dearborn-Detroit line and where no parties are hesitant. Ann Arbor and Washtenaw would be for it and so would Dearborn, Detroit and Wayne County. And then expand off a line that would actually be linking things. But, yes, I will be patient and wait for the study to see what it has to say. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3840 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Agreed that the line would be most beneficial if it went downtown. A lot of commuter rail lines don't directly service downtown areas, though, and rely on local transit connections to distribute riders. And true, most commuter rail lines rely on one terminal while the outlying stations have park-and-ride lots. That's a salient feature of the mode. I would think that since the City of Ann Arbor is pushing this project, they would push AATA to expand service during rush hours to service the rail terminal. AARR, on the other hand--I don't understand their position. Is anyone asking them to *operate* the service? From what I understand, they would receive cash payment for allowing passenger trains to operate on their infrastructure. The AA-Howell line is mutually exclusive from an AA-Detroit line. There's absolutely no reason they need to be (nor should they be) planned in a vacuum. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 182 Registered: 04-2007 |
Details on this plan have been around for a long time, just as Yeti says. AATA plans to have plenty of busses meet each train, and will schedule plenty of busses to make rider connections to the outbound trains. The biggest issue on funding is upgrading the tracks to allow passenger service. The way I understand it, minimum track standards for passenger service are set by federal regulations, just as maximum speed is limited by track condition for all trains. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1238 Registered: 11-2003 |
The tracks technically are legal for passenger service now, but perhaps at a speed less than what the commuter train planners want to operate. Among the 10 federal track classes, the only category in which revenue passenger trains are forbidden by federal law to operated is called "excepted." Excepted track carries a 10 MPH limit for freight trains, but no revenue passenger trains are allowed. The next highest class is 2, which carries a 25 MPH limit for freights and 40 MPH for passenger. Class 3 allows 40 MPH for freight and 60 MPH for passenger. This is the class that's on a lot of the Great Lakes Central, and most likely what exists on the segments (both AA RR and GLC) that would carry the commuter train. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 183 Registered: 04-2007 |
Burnsie-- Thanks for the details! I seemed to remember that when the service was first proposed, that there was quite a bit of track repair that was needed before service could start, and that accounted for a big part of the startup funds they were looking for. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4666 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Of the ten classifications, the nine numbered classes start at class 1, with the excepted track being the equivalent of class 0. Much of the newer track for the four major railroads operating in Detroit is probably welded (CWR) class 4--with passenger-rail speed maxima up to 79 (Amtrak) or 80 (otherwise) mph--not very likely, though. And most railroads obviously do not want their freight operations hindered with somewhat restrictive time separations between freight and passenger trains. They desire an opportunity to more easily keep their costs down. The small amount of revenue for allowing passenger operations on part of their trackage would be a pittance compared to the time/money lost due to time separations. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3841 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Do you mean to say that AARR is more congested than CSX on the East Coast??? I think not--they're a damned short line, not a Class I. AARR certainly is not too congested to receive free money for track upgrades, are they? |
