  Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1033 Registered: 09-2007 |
With all fo these threads about dying or declining downtowns and how Detroit was destined for failure, I always wondered why. Was it because of all the pollution in the air screwing with everybody's head? Was it because of our arrogancy? Comments? Thoughts? | ||
Chub Member Username: Chub Post Number: 494 Registered: 11-2003 |
We put all our eggs in one basket. That basket being the auto industry. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 406 Registered: 08-2006 |
I think we've managed to pinpoint six major causes in our discussions here. There are many other reasons, great and small, but none had such a great impact as the ones listed below. And of course they are all inter-related. - 1899-present: AUTOMOBILES: we are a one-industry town, and our economy is therefore highly volatile, subject to major and minor economic shifts and the whims of the consumers of the world. - 1940s-1980s: trend towards de-centralization of major American city centers. - 1920s-1960s: Deconstruction of vital mass transportation systems (the personal automobile was a blessing at first, but boy did we set ourselves up for disaster by getting rid of the streetcars). - 1942 and 1967: Riots. 'nuff said. - 1940s-1980s: Construction of freeway system; destruction of vital neighborhood centers. - 1973-1994: Coleman Young (I might catch some rap for this one, but he was undoubtedly a polarizing figure. I'm also not saying that everything he did was bad. Young was a fine city mayor, but he certainly wasn't a regional leader). Feel free to agree or disagree. There's lot of reasons why Detroit is the way it is today. The hundreds of failures combined to create the present situation; likewise, the successes of today will culminate to create the Detroit of tomorrow. [cue triumphant music] (Message edited by gsgeorge on December 10, 2007) | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 240 Registered: 05-2006 |
^^You're probably right to some extent. At first, before the auto industry, our economy was diverse, but still heavily industrial. Then when the autos arrived, it was like everyone dropped what they were doing and picked that up. Pre-autos we had a large pharmaceutical industry, as well as stove and ship building. It seems like the faster and higher they climb, the faster and lower they fall... aww chucks. It didn't help that GM killed our streetcars either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G eneral_Motors_streetcar_conspi racy | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1035 Registered: 09-2007 |
Then, it's been so significant to the point that you couldn't tell any child now a days and expect them to believe that Detroit was once another Chicago, LA, Philadelphia or little New York. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 408 Registered: 08-2006 |
oh, and potholes--don't forget potholes. I mean, the Davison had the same concrete street surface from 1944-1994. Where else would that happen? | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1309 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: Ah, yes! How comforting it must be to be able to blame Detroit's downfall on the auto industry and a corporate giant like GM (if it's in Wikipedia, it must be true, right?). It is true that GM was involved in acquiring transit systems in numerous cities, most of which were private, not public, entities. However, GM was not charged with forcing them to sell or give away their systems - they were charged with conflict of interest and monopolistic practices, which was indicative of their size and of the times. I have seen absolutely no evidence that GM used, or was accused of using, unfair practices in their dealings with the DSR, which BTW was one of the few publicly owned transit systems in the USA. The truth is that everyone who worked, shopped and owned property in the Central Business District had a hand in its downfall. If you really must play the victim game, it would be far more accurate to blame it on the Great Depression and World War II instead of the auto industry. I would say that it was the automobile drivers themselves - not the auto industry or the freeways - that had the most to do with the decline of both Detroit's Central Business District and the streetcar system. If you look at downtown Detroit today, every one of those surface parking lots in the CBD previously had some kind of a building on them, usually an old and substandard structure. Those buildings were torn down in the 1930s, 40s and 50s to meet the parking demands caused by the many shoppers and office workers who could afford a car and who drove them downtown - despite the presence of a convenient streetcar and bus system. As a result, the DSR lost a huge chunk of its ridership base and the CBD lost its dense, urban feel when it attempted to accommodate the private automobile. Yes, one could make the convoluted argument that it was the affluence brought about by the automobile industry in Detroit that enabled this to happen, but all you would have is just that, a convoluted argument. It really was personal, free choice, coupled with historical events, that enabled this to happen. There has been a long period during which parking accommodations were made in Detroit's CBD. The Roaring 20's saw the beginning of the boom in private auto ownership while at the same time there was a frenzy of new office/commercial construction in the CBD. The Stock Market Crash brought a halt to the new construction, but not to the auto traffic that converged down the radial arterials into the CBD, snarling streetcar movement. As a result, instead of continuing to tear down substandard buildings to make way for new towers, property owners tore them down instead to create off-street surface parking. Just as it was Detroiter's love affair with their automobiles that enabled the "suburban sprawl" that actually began in the 1920's, that same automotive love affair continued thru the 1930s and 40s, contributing to the pressure that caused older buildings to be torn down in the CBD to make way for parking lots. Parking demand in the CBD continued to be accommodated in this manner during WW II because rationing of building materials prevented any new construction that could compete for those lots. This happened despite the WW II gas rationing that caused DSR ridership, which had been marginally declining and/or holding steady prior to the war, to rise during 1942-45 period. However, once the war was over and new vehicles were once again being produced for private sale, DSR ridership began to decline again. The critical tipping point came in the immediate post-war period of the late 1940s. Commuters and shoppers continued to "vote with their car keys". Rush hour traffic on the radial arterials was horrendous. Instead of letting supply and demand drive the cost of a CBD parking space to a point where it sent commuters back onto the DSR, the city traffic engineers were looking for ways to reduce the horrid rush hour traffic jams on the major streets - and buses were an obvious solution. They found that by replacing the streetcars with curbside bus service and using reversable traffic lanes in the center of the roadway where the streetcars had been, they could increase rush hour traffic flow by 40% and break the gridlock. They also found that riders of the DSR were more than happy to be picked up curbside instead of in the middle of the street. This was the beginning of the end of streetcars in Detroit, and it was hastened by the DRS charter requirement that it operate self-sufficiently, plus the DSR's inability to control their labor costs. When the DSR streetcar system was originally formed, it took over several existing private systems which were in direct competition with each other, often over routes that paralleled each other only one block apart. Unfortunately, the DSR did not rationalize their route system and for years they operated an over-built streetcar system that had trouble generating enough cash to fund operations as well as capital improvements. By 1956, there were no more streetcars anywhere in Detroit and parking lots continued to compete with new construction in the CBD. Here are the dates when DSR streetcar service ended on selected routes (more here): Hamilton 4/28/47 On 6/29/56, President Eisenhower signed the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956, which created the Interstate system as we know it today. Limited-access highways already under construction that met Federal standards (like the Ford and Lodge) would also become part of the Interstate System. The Ford and Lodge freeways as we know them now were finished after the last DSR streetcars were taken out of service in 1956. During the late 1940's, the only freeways that existed in Detroit were the Davison and Willow Run and neither serviced the CBD or New Center areas. So it cannot be said that the freeways killed the streetcars or the CBD, any more so than it was a conspiracy by General Motors. IMHO, the parking issue will eventually prove to be a bottleneck in the resurgence of the CBD unless a viable parking and transit strategy can be implemented. The transit portion of that strategy is the most important part and will take the longest to implement. It has to start now with a turnaround of the existing bus systems into one that is reliable, clean and safe. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 2209 Registered: 01-2004 |
big3 | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1258 Registered: 09-2004 |
Stupid posts on Detroityes. | ||
14509glenfield Member Username: 14509glenfield Post Number: 1404 Registered: 05-2006 |
Adaptation to diversification. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 64 Registered: 08-2007 |
14509glenfield said: "Adaptation to diversification." So Detroit shouldn't have diversified? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1223 Registered: 11-2003 |
The fact that virtually all new auto plants (and other industries) were built in the suburbs starting around WWII was a huge factor that hasn't been mentioned yet, more important than the loss of streetcars. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1080 Registered: 08-2007 |
Another couple of things in the 60s and 70s, urban renewal and abandonment by the middle class. HUD jumped in and tried to take up the housing stock as it was abandoned, and worked with DSS to parse it out to needy recipients, but corruption in the ranks prevented any real success. | ||
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2004 |
Locusts | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10952 Registered: 10-2003 |
One component that I have wondered about is if Detroit grew too large too quick. So many people relocated here for jobs in the auto industry so the city didn't really grow in a typical fashion. Due to this we saw big issues with race relations, lack of civic prode since so many people's families had only been here a few years, etc. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 676 Registered: 02-2007 |
The Riots and I-75. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2336 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: Possibly. But Chicago's population also exploded in a relatively short period of time. Look at it's growth in the census between 1870 and 1930. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L argest_cities_in_the_United_St ates_by_population_by_decade Detroit is an anomaly in that it's the only American city that had a population of over 1 million residents to drop below 1 million residents. Another interesting point, scroll down to the 1950 census numbers on that link above. Eight of the 10 cities on that list peaked in population in that census, and NYC didn't post a new peak population until the 2000 census. What happened in the 1950s? Why did everything come to a sudden halt simultaneously? Why did some cities stabilize their population better than others? | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2375 Registered: 01-2005 |
Geography. Because the city was on the northern edge of the county it is in, the C of D could not annex additional lands as they might have were the core city in the center of Wayne County. Eight Mile road was a barrier even then. The last land annexation was in 1927 when it grabbed off Greenfield and part of Redford Townships. I suspect westward expansion was checked by the depression that followed and then WW II. If Detroit had become around 400 square miles instead of the 139 it currently is, the demographics would be most interesting. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1943 Registered: 12-2003 |
http://www.amazon.com/Origins- Urban-Crisis-Inequality-Prince ton/dp/0691058881 Read Origins of the Urban Crisis by Thomas Sugrue. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4111 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Read Origins of the Urban Crisis by Thomas Sugrue." A fantastic book, have it on my shelves. Must read for anybody asking the question in this thread's title. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10957 Registered: 10-2003 |
It's also available at Borders downtown. | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 241 Registered: 05-2006 |
MIkeg, Are you trying to tell me that GM didn't replace the streetcars with buses? | ||
Monahan568 Member Username: Monahan568 Post Number: 252 Registered: 04-2004 |
the late great Colman A Young. "take your ass to 8 mile if you don't like it" | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 7247 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ray1936 The laws regarding annexation of parcels of land by Cities in Michigan were changed by the State Legislature about that time. Partially, the Legislature was trying to insure Detroit was not a political entity with the power to rival the Legislature. Hans57, Yes, GM pushed buses over streetcars, but there seems to be a dearth of factual information, that they actually had a campaign to eliminate streetcars. Actually, the death knell for the streetcar in Detroit was the strike of 1951, which shut down the system for two months. The ridership never returned, and lines were cut or the schedules were lessened, insuring service was further cut do to lack of ridership. Not unlike what we face today with the bus systems. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 438 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:How did Northville and Grosse Pointe Shores manage to incorporate on both sides of 8 Mile, then? I thought it was fairly common for municipalities to span county lines. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 744 Registered: 07-2007 |
The loss of streetcars led to Detroit's downfall? Wrong. L.A.'s streetcars were torn up also, It seem to be booming. http://www.1134.org/stan/ul/GM -et-al.html | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1045 Registered: 09-2007 |
Thank you very much Lefty. We might as well cross that one off the list of reasons. Until recently, L.A. was transit depressed (and Smoggy) just like Detroit. Yet, they still remained the 2nd largest city in America with excellent centralization. | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 242 Registered: 05-2006 |
L.A. has a booming downtown? | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 1728 Registered: 03-2006 |
the ignorance of the "golden generation and the older baby boomers did it" (not all of them of course) (Message edited by chi-taku on December 10, 2007) | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1047 Registered: 09-2007 |
"L.A. has a booming downtown?" Certainly is better than ours if all of those workers jam the expressways in and out of it. |
