Discuss Detroit Archives - January 2008 State ends year in Black Previous Next
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 278
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 12:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20080103/NEW S06/801030430/1008

If I were a laid off State of Michigan employee, I'd be pretty upset with Grandholm after reading this.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1734
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 12:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you were a State of Michigan employee, you'd have to learn how to spell... ;)
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11130
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 12:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The role of gov't is to supply services, not employ people.
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 483
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 12:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why should they be?

Does government always have to be exactly balanced? Can't it ever have a small surplus, which is prudent fiscal management?

Can't government re-apportion it's resources to changing conditions and priorities?

The question comes down to - is government's mission to provide as many jobs as possible on the state roll or is it to provide services?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11132
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 12:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DV - Good question. Let's look at the overall health of different organizations that seem to offer (or have previously) lifetime employement/benefits:

State of Michigan - Lookin' good
City of Detroit - Certainly a role model city
Big 3 - Definitely the envy of all of corporate America.
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 280
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 12:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"If you were a State of Michigan employee, you'd have to learn how to spell... ;)"

Excuse the spelling error. I should have known that "nerd" would find something to be sarcastic about.

WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA!
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1735
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 12:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's not sarcasm. If you need help learning how to read and write, visit your local library, or contact a volunteer. Many adults with problems reading and writing can develop their reading comprehension and critical thinking skills that way. Good luck! :-)
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 4637
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 1:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's right! Every American should maximize his or her fluency in English. Even those who howl about others lack of fluency in English!
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Docmo
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Username: Docmo

Post Number: 324
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 1:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fix the surplus problem with a tax rebate
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 485
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 1:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JT1- that's the reason I believe the most stable job you can have is entrepreneur. At least you can adapt and sell yourself, and have multiple sources of income. There is a different set of challenges (sometimes having to wait forever compared to a regular job to get paid), but more independence.

At any job, no matter how valuable you think you are, you can be let go. And they'll find a reason. Whether you're not good enough, or too good, or too smart (that's a common one), or just been around too long and the price per hour needs to be reduced. It's the way of most of the world, and deal with it. It's why I think people who are regularly employed should be looking for jobs when they have a job, as well as create alternate sources of income even while fully employed.

The world has changed. None of the "American" brand cars in the household were actually made in America, nor my neighbors, except for one who ones a 1978 model - yet the guy down the street who owns a Honda was built here in the USA. What is American anymore?
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 4364
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 1:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^ You guys keep saying that, yet you know the numbers show that the Big 3 OVERWHELMINGLY employ either directly or indirectly more Americans than any of the other auto companies. Oh well, keep ignoring the data.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11134
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 1:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JL - I have no issues with the Big 3 employing directly or indirectly millions and millions of Amwericans. I believe we need Washington to support domestic manufacturing much more so than they have.

The point is that the jobs are not obligated. A stronger Big 3 ( or domestic manufacturing) is great. Larger work forces in failing doemestic companies is not great.

Domestic mfg is great. Employment for the sake of employing people is not great.

I do and will continue to buy as many American goods as a can and will always support the Big 3 with my purchases but that does not entitle anyone to a job for the sake of being employed.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 4366
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 1:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh I agree all you just said Jt. My comment was with those who apparently think supporting the Big 3 doesn't actually do anything to help our domestic economy anymore. That is simply untrue when you look at the numbers.
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Rob_in_warren
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Username: Rob_in_warren

Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 1:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We'll never get a tax rebate. I do hope this surplus money will go to something good (not widening the road to nowhere). Attract new industries, fix up old schools, save it, start a trust, hire better economists...

Might next Christmas bring another surplus???
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1736
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 2:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That tax rebate would help some folks -- to move out of the state! 8P
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Izzadore
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Username: Izzadore

Post Number: 88
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 2:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What about mass transit down Woodward? $100M to help KK 'dream the impossible dream' might help...
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 2269
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 2:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The role of gov't is to supply services, not employ people."

And said government will supply these services with.....what ? Robots ?

Stupid remark.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 3178
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 2:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great news!
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11135
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 2:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

"The role of gov't is to supply services, not employ people."

And said government will supply these services with.....what ? Robots ?

Stupid remark.



Supply the services with the correct amount of people, use automation or technology to help reduce costs and headcount, sub contract to firms with expertise that they can't offer, etc.

Certainly not a stupid remark when you look at reality and how businesses or governments should be run.
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 3149
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 3:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why do you think that they automated most of the functions of the Secretary of State offices?

Online tab renewal?

Kiosks?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 3246
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 3:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

use some to pay down debt, use some to foster small biz startups, hold the rest in reserve
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 3532
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 3:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good for the State!!
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Viziondetroit
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Username: Viziondetroit

Post Number: 1334
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 3:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The role of gov't is to supply services, not employ people.

^^^^ I tell people this all the time. Companies are not in business to provide jobs, they are in business to make money and keep overhead low. It's never personal, it's business.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 3247
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 3:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"they are in business to make money and keep overhead low. It's never personal, it's business"

but many companies seem to have lost sight of the fact that when people don't have good paying jobs there's little or no market for many companies' goods or services
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Wally
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Username: Wally

Post Number: 347
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 3:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like my share of surplus money returned. I don't care if it's only $35. Any budget surplus is robbery, more money than required was taken from the taxpayers.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 4378
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 3:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sometimes the case is also that companies lose sight of the fact that it is sometimes WORTH it to pay more to hang onto good employees, instead of dumping them for cheaper labor to save money.
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Mrsjdaniels
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Username: Mrsjdaniels

Post Number: 315
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 3:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That tax rebate would help some folks -- to move out of the state! 8P
^^^^^

DING DING DING
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1740
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 3:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*bows*
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 6044
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 4:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wally, well you better use your $35 as part of the $35,000 each of us owes the federal government due to the federal deficit and the heavy spenders in Washington on both sides of the aisle! :-(

If there's anything to complain about... a state surplus is NOT it....

(Sort of reminds me of people screaming about paying $5 a month more for Detroit water, but staying mum on paying $100 a month more for their heating bills... :-) )

(Message edited by Gistok on January 03, 2008)
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 2270
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 4:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"businesses or governments"

Governments are NOT businesses.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11136
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 4:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NO, but they both should look to offer the best results with the lowest costs. The principles that drive cost reduction should apply to both.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1741
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 4:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Er, I think the cheapest form of government is despotism.

On a practical level, maybe there aren't different metrics for success in business and government, but there ought to be.
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 486
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 4:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JL - that can be very true about keeping people. I actually agree with you. It's a crazy equation - and that would happen more if over 60% of purchasers didn't predicate their decisions mostly on price with quality being low on their actual priority scale.

People always talk about that they want quality - but most are not willing to pay for it. Look at the price of computers - there is no customer support built into that. It's why you can get a $400-$700 computer - it's a box of parts with no support, unless you want to pay by the hour. One of the reasons I'm a mac guy is that although I spend more (sometimes) for a computer, I get great service. And they don't BS me - I buy Applecare, I get even more service. They just tell me up front what it's going to cost - which is very un-American. The American way to sell, and it works, is lure someone to the door with a low cost for something that doesn't fit their needs, and then upsell them as high as you can.

Last night on "Marketplace" was a great quote - American culture is so that no one wants to do something preventative - they want big fixes for big problems instead of handling things when they're small issues and easy to deal with.

I also think that supporting the Big 3 is important. They are big employers, and they are key. The discussion of whether the Big 3 is valuable and the discussion of what someone as an individual should do to deal with realities are different things completely. However, there should be more than the Big 3 in Detroit, and the Big 3 is across the board lowering their workers' wages with new hires.

Being a one-horse-town is bad business and leaves you vulnerable to volatility.

p.s. - Government is not business, because it does a lot of things that don't make sense for a business to do because you can't make a profit and are for the common good. However, in the execution of those duties, as good stewards of all of our money, they should do those in an efficient and effective way to accomplish the most with the resources at hand.

(Message edited by digitalvision on January 03, 2008)
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 4382
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 4:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't see anything to disagree with there DV.

I think maybe blaming the American public, while it has some merit, isn't the total truth. I think if someone made a higher quality product, but it cost more, it could still be a winner. Look at Bose. An American electronics company that makes high quality products, and you pay out the rear for them. But they are successful. They can't sell their product to everybody in America on the shelves of Wal*Mart, but they can have a profitable business.

The companies get greedy, and a profitable business isn't enough. They want more money, they want to be on the shelves of Wal*Mart, so they go the cheap route.
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Rfban
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Username: Rfban

Post Number: 233
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 4:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^ Governments are not businesses, however they do have a responsibility to give back to the citizens in which they are under--but not in a rebate, nor on something (foolish, i.e., a ridiculous ordinance or beatification) with no return. What about economic development? Improving EXISTING infrastructure? Getting better public transportation?
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 3151
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 4:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course they're not businesses.

Businesses fail when their spending consistently outpaces their income.

Governments either print fiat currency to make up for this, or they flat out lie to their constituents and tell you that they are worse off than they really are so that they do not have to make tough decisions.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 4385
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 5:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry I was off on a tangent. You're right, governments are not businesses.

Check out this discussion about a budget surplus in my city. I asked other residents what they would like to see done with it. Good answers all around I think, not many wanted a tax rebate. Most either wanted it saved for a rainy day, or used for something good for the public.

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/121368.html?1197331856
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 430
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 5:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The accidental surplus already being spent in one of two ways:

a) Right-wingers - Gimme my money back you thieving commies!

b) Left-wingers - Give it to X so that we can provide more services!

How about we just put it in the piggy bank and draw some interest until we need it?
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 609
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 5:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In 1994, the state of Michigan paid for the Livonia SMART public buses.

It's time to restore all state funding for public bus service. A small penny increase of the fuel tax can do this or if we use buses to remove cars from roads.


Please let Gov. Granholm that you saw my website under DETROIT LINKS in DetroitYes and that you support the plan to get the SMART buses back with full service throughout southeast Michigan.

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