  Raggedclaws Member Username: Raggedclaws Post Number: 111 Registered: 08-2006 |
You speak spanish. We're all impressed. But it doesn't lend any particular credibility to your argument or position. Y'all do know that, right ? | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 804 Registered: 02-2007 |
They speak spanish because they have ran out of logical sounding (to them) excuses for one to be in a foreign country illegally. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 4621 Registered: 10-2003 |
 If you love America so much, why won't YOU pick America's produce? | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 268 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Oh, and you've never broken a law, huh? No speeding? J-walking? If you want to keep trying to feed me that, we don't need to discuss this any further." You are really splitting hairs aren't you? A little desperate for an argument? Yes, I have gone over a speed limit...yes, I have made an illegal U-turn, who hasn't? What I haven't done is walk into a foreign land unauthorized, without proper paperwork. What I haven't done is take benefits from a country where I don't legally have a right to have them. I don't ask for and get health care illegally. I have never taken something from someone or a country where I don't have legal rights. spongebob...what part of "LEGAL VS. ILLEGAL" don't you understand? We are talking about people who come into the United States ILLEGALLY. There are laws and procedures to go through before you can enter. How dare these people just walk across and expect to be taken care of by my tax dollars? | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1641 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Name one undocumented worker that you know that has done that. Okay, we can agree that what you have in common with undocumented workers is that you have both broken the law. The only contention we have then, is to what degree. You're saying that the laws you have broken are a lesser degree than what they have done. I disagree. It reminds me of this story credited to many people (in this case George Shaw)... "George Bernard Shaw once found himself at a dinner party, seated beside an attractive woman. "Madam," he asked, "would you go to bed with me for a thousand pounds?" The woman blushed and rather indignantly shook her head. "For ten thousand pounds?" he asked. "No. I would not." "Then how about fifty thousand pounds?" he continued. The colossal sum gave the woman pause, and after further reflection, she coyly replied: "Yes." "And if I were to offer you five pounds?" Shaw asked. "Mr. Shaw!" the woman exclaimed. "What do you take me for!" "We have already established what you are," Shaw calmly replied. "Now we are merely haggling over the price." | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1642 Registered: 10-2003 |
buyamerican, why haven't you commented on the fact that you posted a whole shit load of lies about a group of people? Are you going to be like craigd and ignore the fact that all of your "facts" are lies and continue to post more bullshit (like undocumented workers steal benefits)? it has been long established that vast majority of benefit go towards the American-born children who have just as much right to benefits as you or I. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 809 Registered: 02-2007 |
"" I don't ask for and get health care illegally."" Quote: "Name one undocumented worker that you know that has done that. " Oh please, they have about financially ruined the state of California, not to mention the hospitals that have closed up in the southwest because of it. As I mentioned earlier. Why on earth would people bail out on their own country, hire a smuggler, risk life and limb and even death, travel great distance plus risk arrest and incarceration for a 5 dollar an hour job? And much less on some of the white slave farms in the south? They should crack open a book and learn something that they can apply to a trade that will allow them to produce goods and market those goods. One doesn't have to be an American to sell anything on the internet. I know some folks personally in South America that have done just this. They live like kings in their communities there. You think the US got this way for no reason? It's because our founders and descendents worked their asses off to early graves and took risks in the process. So much for your "Mexicans work harder than everyone else" BS. Hard work doesn't build a country like Mexico. It's a known fact, Americans work more hours per year per capita than any other country on the face of the earth. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 269 Registered: 02-2007 |
"buyamerican, why haven't you commented on the fact that you posted a whole shit load of lies about a group of people? Are you going to be like craigd and ignore the fact that all of your "facts" are lies and continue to post more bullshit (like undocumented workers steal benefits)? it has been long established that vast majority of benefit go towards the American-born children who have just as much right to benefits as you or I." I stand behind my post #258. No one has given me any reason to believe otherwise. I need proof regarding your statement "it has been long established that vast majority of benefit go towards the American-born children who have just as much right to benefits as you or I..." Where did you come up with that? Your "facts" are lies. How about these facts: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071231/NEWS07/712310337/1009 (Message edited by Buyamerican on December 31, 2007) | ||
Detroitinmyheart Member Username: Detroitinmyheart Post Number: 168 Registered: 12-2007 |
It was only a matter of time until Sparky and Biff pulled out the race card. Im impressed . You two Bozos waited quite a few posts prior to pulling the race card and then you did so indirectly. It only took half a mind to do that and you two were able to put together the little you have between yourselves to pull it off. On Hannity's America the other night they showed just what problems illegals cause in this nation. Is it America's fault that the overwhelming majority just so happen to be Mexican? Nope. What struck me personally as genius on the program was the fact that our hospitals are going completely broke treating illegals from the south all the while subsidized by the "LEGAL " taxpaying American residents and some nasty ass woman has the balls to get on national TV proclaiming we can afford to pick up the tab for their healthcare. We are rich she goes on to say. Well, not anymore we are not. The illegals from the south of us have all but drained and broken our economy and I for one have no patience for any illegals what so ever. I report them all when they proudly proclaim they don't have papers and then watch them get hauled away. And comments from the two Bozos Sparky and Biff in three....two.....one...... | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 270 Registered: 02-2007 |
Sparky and Biff??? | ||
Detroitinmyheart Member Username: Detroitinmyheart Post Number: 169 Registered: 12-2007 |
Yes, Sparky and Biff . They know who they are. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1645 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: How about the Center For Immigration Studies which says..."Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth."? http://www.cis.org/articles/20 04/fiscalexec.html Christ, I'm going to have to break down all of your "facts" again. After doing it for craigd, he still won't acknowledge the lies. I guess this time I'll save it so I can just paste it in when the next asshole posts it. Are you ready? Here we go... 1. In the study cited, there is no reference to these numbers. They are made up. The study is on the internet, take a look for yourself. I have. Steven A. Camarota, “Back Where We Started: An Examination of Trends in Immigrant Welfare Use Since Welfare Reform,” Center for Immigration Studies, March 2003 2. The study cited says $1.9 billion is spent on free lunches, not $2.2 billion, but hey what's $300 million between friends? Let's not split hairs, though. Accuracy is not notable in internet forwards. The key here is that the money goes to the children who are generally Americans (see above study). 3. Hey, you got a number right. Good for you. 1 out of 3 ain't bad when you're dealing facts, right? Also, keep in mind that the cost of undocumented workers on the federal budget is less than half that of other households (same study). The number is stated as a fact, when in reality it is only an estimate. 4. When you try to verify these numbers, you get this... quote: I would consider taking your word for it, but I really can't when it says "...children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!" This could not be any more false. The children of immigrants generally pick up english pretty quickly, sometimes teaching the parents in the process. This is the same way it worked in the past when there was an influx of German and Italian immigrants. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11 /30/us/30immig.html?_r=1&ref=u s&oref=slogin 5. The numbers here come from the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a bias, anti-immigration group. While the numbers may or may not be correct, they are not quantified by the amount of money undocumented workers pay in taxes which significantly offsets the final numbers. The picture, on a whole, is misrepresented. 6. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, $3 million is spent per day incarcerating non- U.S. citizens, and not "illegal immigrants". A blatant and possibly deliberate lie. 7. Again, the Federal Bureau of Prisons says that 73.6% of inmates are U.S. citizens, therefore 26.4% are non-citizens. It says nothing about how many are "illegal aliens", a number that is much smaller than your bullshit internet forward implies. The author of this ball of lies is a particularly large asshole by the name of Frosty Woolridge. He changed "Non U.S. citizen" to read "illegal alien" because, apparently he hates Mexicans. Everything about #7 is incorrect right down to the 30% number. 8. Again this asshole takes an exhaustive study by Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation and twists it into something that can only be categorized as an outright lie. in the study, Rector says that the net cost is $90 billion for all immigrants. Not illegals, who only make up about 40% of the immigrant population. So, subtract 60% of $90 billion to get a number that is closer to the truth about undocumented workers. Since they are not eligible for most assistance programs, the actual number is probably much lower. http://www.heritage.org/Resear ch/Immigration/sr14.cfm 9. Did you even read any of the citations? See if you can see the difference between the statement for number 9 on your internet forward and what was actually said by Lou Dobbs (It was even given as a citation for christ's sake!)... quote: And the actual transcript... quote:I highlighted it for you in case you have selective reading disease. Also, your internet forward leaves out the net gains produced by immigrants, both legal and illegal. 10. Again, this is like shooting retarded fish in a barrel. What Rector stated on the program was "...Hispanics in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-Hispanics...". Hispanics, not illegal aliens. Hispanics. Got it? Good, moving on... 11. Again Woolridge (and by proxy, you) grossly misrepresent a report. using numbers from the report, we find that the number is about 1,500 to 6,000, not "19,500 ". The other statements appear to be fair estimates. Congrats. 12. The citation given is from the National Policy Institute and the link does not work. I was going to request the document, but then I did a little research on the NPI. Their mission statement says their purpose is "...to elevate the consciousness of whites, ensure our biological and cultural continuity, and protect our civil rights. The institute ... will study the consequences of the ongoing influx that non-Western populations pose to our national identity.". Nice to know that white supremacy is alive and well. The founder and chairman of the group once said in a speech "...within the first or secondhand memories of people in this room, the white race may go from master of the universe to an anthropological curiosity.". I don't expect unbias information from the NPI, would you? Well, you probably would as it sounds right up your alley. 13. Comically, the citation here is to the original site of this bullshit. That's like saying "I'm right because I said so". Anyway, I dug deeper and the original citation is from http://www.contracostatimes.co m/mld/cctimes/news/nation/1579 5654.htm?source=rss&channel=cc times_nation This link directs you to the main page of The Contra Costa Times. Upon a search of the site, nothing of the sort is found. A report released by the Inter-American Development Bank estimated that immigrants living in the United States sent $45 billion to family members in 2006. Did you catch that? immigrants, not illegal aliens. 14. These numbers are one person's pure speculation. That person being Deborah Schurman-Kauflin, Ph.D. In addition to Kauflin's wild speculation, a report by the Government Accountability Office GAO-05-646R identified over 55,000 illegal aliens in federal and state prisons and local jails and identified that those criminals had committed 11,833 sex offenses. That's a far cry from 1 million, right? quote: I really don't know what the fuck this is about. You throw out a number and then give a link to a snopes article about Bank Of America giving credit cards to people without SSN. What the hell is that all about? So after all this, do you have any comments on this statement of your? quote:? Remember, you will get much more respect around here when you admit you are wrong. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 271 Registered: 02-2007 |
http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/parkland.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/socialsecurity.asp http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/restarea.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp Read a few of those links and then tell me you want to see this in the U.S.  This should make you as sick as it does me. I respect our country and what it stands for. What do you respect? (Message edited by Buyamerican on January 01, 2008) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 4623 Registered: 10-2003 |
What! No comment on all those factual errors and random links? Have you actually read the links that you posted beyond the first 10 sentences? From BA's link: Hoax: Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers. Reality:The California Vital Records Department of the Department of Health Services classified as "Hispanic" the race/ethnicity of 62.7% of all births occurring in Los Angeles county in 2001. The statistic quoted above therefore erroneously characterizes all parents of Hispanic heritage in Los Angeles County in 2001 as being "illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal." Apparently for BA "respecting our country" does not include reading fluency in the English Language".  | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1646 Registered: 10-2003 |
So, instead of owning up to posting a boatload of BS, buyamerican posts more lies. Keep up the hate, I guess. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 273 Registered: 02-2007 |
Everyone is wrong, you are right...is that how it goes? Have you ever admitted YOU are wrong. Is your check getting smaller, is that what's making you so angry? If any of the stats that I posted from other sources are wrong then I guess a whole lot of people are wrong and you are right. End of discussion. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1648 Registered: 10-2003 |
It's not so much that I am right as you are wrong and I have proven you as such. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong, but apparently you can't admit to being wrong even when the truth is beat over your head. Just like craigd. | ||
Kevgoblu Member Username: Kevgoblu Post Number: 42 Registered: 02-2007 |
The 'undocumented' workers are definately influencing our economy and taking a toll on the American worker. Especially the undereducated worker seeking a manufacturing or other low or semi-skilled job. But where's all the hate and venom being spewed toward the Americans for hiring these people? It's easy to point the blame at the illegals, but if you or I were in their position, who wouldn't cross the border to feed their families? As long as there are jobs available, no matter what type of border security we implement, there will be people coming to get them. Arrest American CEO's and business owners for hiring these people. Once the opportunity to make money dries up, 90% of the incentive to come to this country will be removed. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4697 Registered: 10-2004 |
The businesses who hire illegals AND not pay them the going wage actually screw over other businesses who do not hire cheap labor--by their having an illegal, unethical business advantage. In effect, they (the owners) too ARE criminals in several, obvious ways. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 4626 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Arrest American CEO's and business owners for hiring these people" There's an idea...but those people can afford lawyers. Besides, the simpler and more rational your solution to the problem, the more the nativists will stomp and shriek and moan and post links to Lou Dobbs and demand that tens of thousands imaginary invisible helpers be deployed all over the nation to round up desperate folks who have bypassed a broken INS that can't even get passports to US Citizens in a timely manner. When the nativists do get off their asses, is it to do any of the work of the "criminals" who pick our produce, grind up our meat, fry our burgers, mop our floors, sand our drywall, or enlist in our military? No. The nativists get off their asses to feed themselves with food processed by the "illegals". Then back to the computer to make make excuses as to why they are unworthy of such work and post more links to their beloved Lou Dobbs, who while impersonating a journalist, practices race-baiting: inviting white supremacists posing as doctors on his show, to conjure up imaginary plagues and coodies. Father Coughlin would have been so proud. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 823 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "When the nativists do get off their asses," "they pick produce" "all lies, we aren't costing you a dime" blah blah blah Why don't you come up with something new? Instead of blaming us Americans for so many that have trepassed our borders. Typically, the last thing most foreigners want is the US people to get off their asses. Careful what you ask for. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 4628 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Why don't you come up with something new?" Because YOU haven't. In fact, you have not even answered the questions that I have asked! Why don't you tell us what actions you have personally taken to address the issue? Have you bought more food produced on small farms where the owners don't employ "illegals?" Have you produced any of your own food? Have you written you local lawmakers to request that immigration laws be streamlined so that people will have LESS excuses to enter the US illegally? Have you applied for work with the INS or volunteered to be a "minuteman"? Have you started a business that employs American Citizens? Have you spent any time on the border? Have you examined the economic policies of the countries that export citizens to our country? (Consider: The country to the north of us has high taxes and spends a considerable amount of money to educate and maintain the health of its' citizens. There are few people from this country sneaking into the US for work. The countries to the south of us have very low taxes, absurdly low minimum wage laws, spend little on infrastructure, education and health care, but have tiny wealthy elites that benefit immensely from these policies.There are MANY people from these countries sneaking into the US for work.) I DON'T think you know anything about what foreigners want, and I DON'T think you will get off your ass, so I DO think we'll be having the same argument in ten years. | ||
Oladub Member Username: Oladub Post Number: 69 Registered: 08-2006 |
Illegal aliens do work Americans won't do for illegal alien wages. Packing plants jobs used to be union jobs. Drop the pay from union rates to $8/hr. and pretty soon many employees are illegal aliens. Watch out construction workers. You're next. 30% of US construction jobs are already done by illegals. There is no need to have round ups. A southern California fence building company was fined $5M and Wal-mart was fined $11Mfor hiring illegals. Its the illegal behavior of executives and owners that should be punished. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 274 Registered: 02-2007 |
Barn, your argument is pointless. ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL. You and your friend just don't get it and you never will. In your eyes, laws are made to be broken, and it sounds to me as if you encourage it. "I DON'T think you know anything about what foreigners want, and I DON'T think you will get off your ass, so I DO think we'll be having the same argument in ten years." I don't care what foreigners want. The problem is THEY WANT everything that our government has to offer and that is MY tax money for America, not illegals. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 824 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Why don't you come up with something new?" ""Because YOU haven't. In fact, you have not even answered the questions that I have asked!"" The redundant one about who is going to pick produce or some such nonsense? The same people that do the thousands of other jobs in this country, the citizens. Businesses that hire illegals are saving money doing so and hurting honest businesses in the process, they need to spend some of it for a change. Quote: "Why don't you tell us what actions you have personally taken to address the issue?" Well I haven't but I will when the opportunity arises, I would and we all need to start turning them in. Quote: "Have you bought more food produced on small farms where the owners don't employ "illegals?" "" Now how is anyone going to do that? As with all illegal operations, honest law abiding folk are clueless to the inner workings. Quote: "Have you produced any of your own food?" No, but I produce taxable income and buy food with it. Quote "Have you written you local lawmakers to request that immigration laws be streamlined so that people will have LESS excuses to enter the US illegally?" If I write my local lawmakers it's not going to be suggestions to help bring more uneducated people into the country. We need skills and expertise. Quote: "Have you applied for work with the INS or volunteered to be a "minuteman"?" No, why should I? We pay taxes to our government that is supposed to deal with such issues like controlling our borders. Have you started a business that employs American Citizens? Yes Quote: "Have you spent any time on the border?" Doing what? Watching people just walk into our country like there is absolutely no laws? Quote "Have you examined the economic policies of the countries that export citizens to our country?" I could basically care less. I worry about the US, its my home. Just like any good neighbor we should mind our own business, but that doesn't mean tear down our fences and surrender our lands to public use by whomever. Again you're trying to blame the American people somehow for foreigners trespassing on us. With a "well if you did this" "and you did that" It's child-like reasoning. If anything this thread has been a bit of an eye-opener into the mindset of someone whom disrespects all borders and the laws therein. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4351 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well said Sstash. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 275 Registered: 02-2007 |
sstashmoo, again I thank you for your excellent post. I get too angry at the idiotic remedies and questions that Barn and Cheddar put forth. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1650 Registered: 10-2003 |
So I guess you're not going to admit that what you posted was a bunch of lies, huh? | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 251 Registered: 07-2006 |
Someone needs to deport Cheddar_Bob. He is unpatriotic. He supports the invasion of our country by foreign people. He does not observe the differentiation between right and wrong, legal and illegal. His platform is boosted by smoke and mirrors, deflections of issues and ongoing bickerings. Quite the contrary, he would make a great politician. #1 issue with immigration. Companies gaining a competitive advantage through the use of illegal immigrants. How do you - Cheddar_Bob....... respond to the fact that companies who ABIDE by the rules and hire legal citizens of OUR country incur higher costs while other companies utilize and take advantage of illegals up until something tragic happens (arrest, injury, pregnancy, death, etc). Then another will fill his/her illegal place leaving the original illegal in a bad situation. This additionally allows the illegally acting company to pass along savings to end users who in turn will support those same businesses with their purchases. It is a SPIRAL - Cheddar_Bob...... don't you see the writing on the wall? It is a situation that needs to get regulated. I know many people in the construction business who can not compete with other residential and/or commercial contractors out west who do use illegals. Their quotes are so far different that customers would be silly to pass up the cheaper deals. Our patriotic dignity is thrown out the window at the hands of $$. We only continue to deprave our country and its' values by supporting these business habits. It is a problem that needs to be addressed. What say you Cheddar_Bob,,,,, Mr. politico..... Master Debater of D-Yes who want to contribute something useful...... please do tell..... you may have as much time as you wish..... | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 4632 Registered: 10-2003 |
"He supports the invasion of our country by foreign people" I love it when the nativists forget where THEIR ancestors came from! You may want to study history. The invasion of our country by "foreign people" made our country what it is! One of my ancestors was on an early boatload of "foreign people", a boat called the Mayflower. He came without a visa. Another of my ancestors was part of a tribe that had their land by "foreigners" who came here and created their own laws and papers and started calling themselves "Americans". That would be my other ancestors- and yours. Unless of course, your tribe was here before 1492. After a generation or two, some of these new "Americans" quickly started talking about who to keep out. It started with the Irish... Apparently there is a history of making more room for people. Apparently it made our country strong. Apparently, many of you have no problem with folks like BA posting blatant lies about the "invaders" but have big problems with any solution other than "round them all up". Just keep saying that. It's not going to happen. They keep reinforcing the border. People keep finding ways to trickle in. Apparently many of you have no problems with the hypocrisy of bitching about "illegal" while you purchase products produced by them. It's like bitching about people selling drugs, while enjoying a line of coke now and then. Sstash can't even fathom this. It's as simple as buying your meat at one of the Slaughterhouses at the Eastern Market, rather than buying Holly Farms or Smithfield, two companies that have used undocumented workers to process their food. How much simpler can it be? You buy your food from small local farmers if you're so concerned with the issue; you buy your food from agribusiness giants if you don't care. But the idea of solving a problem by starting with your own actions seems unfathomable to many of you. As does the idea of simply fining people and charging them a fee for citizenship, which would be much more practical and realistic. Ah, but then they would be American citizens and you couldn't shriek the word "illegal" any more. As for TKs bit about the construction industry, it is an improvement on the first part of his post in which he suggests that American Citizens can be deported (which has happened repeatedly in history- just ask any of the Japanese-Americans who lived on the West Coast in the 1940s) TK actually posts some actual real life experiences, rather than Lou Dobbs episodes. I like that. An earlier poster suggested fines for businesses that use undocumented laborers. That's simple and practical. Fines on one end. American consumers voting with their wallets on the other. "We pay taxes to our government that is supposed to deal with such issues like controlling our borders." They are. They have been building walls for 20 years. I just came back from Tijuana, and the wait time is up significantly. They will keep fortifying the border, and people will keep sneaking in. It's been going on for years, and because so many Americans are unwilling to do anything more than bitch and moan, it will continue, as will our argument, as will Lou Dobb's fear pimping and white supremacist guests, as will BA's posting of blatant lies... |
