  Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2849 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: So, Ford Doesn't make and Sell the Fiesta in Europe. http://www.driving.org/Ford%20 FiestaOct03.html Vauxhaul (GM's Wholly owned european division) doesn't make and sell the corsa in europe. http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vx/v xfilter/vxfilter.do?method=get EngineTypesList US Companies do make and sell small cars in Europe. They are able to due to the fact Gasoline costs $6.00 a US gallon in Europe. This drives people into smaller cars. They are willing to pay a slightly higher price for a smaller car. Would you be willing to pay $20,000 for that corsa or Fiesta? | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 298 Registered: 05-2006 |
Way to deflect a conversation! I thought we were talking about the US market. You stated that AMERICANS wouldn't buy small cars and I am refuting that. The Ward's statistics that you posted were on the DOMESTIC market. But since you brought up Europe, yes I DO realize that the US companies are building small cars in Europe and other countries - I have driven them. That makes it even more perplexing to me that they wouldn't sell them here and yes, I probably would buy one depending on the price. Where the did you get that $20,000 price? Source please! | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2850 Registered: 10-2003 |
I am talking about the US market. Ford and GM do make profitable small cars for Europe. Unfortunately that business model is not workable in the US. We US consumers are not willing to pay the price that a good quality small car would cost. We always upsize everything. Bigger houses, bigger cars, and bigger meals. The US consumer still values size over all else. Where did I get the price? Did you go to the Vauxhaul site? The base list price of a corsa is 9000 British pounds sterling for a stripped manual shift vehicle. At the todays 2.08 to 1 conversion rate that equals just shy of $19,000. With an automatic and a reasonable list of options, I don't see any way you'd get one out of the showroom for less than $20,000. You claimed US manufacturers don't make small cars. I pointed out that they do make small cars. They just can't sell them here at a profit. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 544 Registered: 02-2007 |
Ndavies, correct. Many do not understand, it costs as much to mfr a small car as it does a large car, the only difference is the raw material costs and sticker price. There is more profit in big cars, and they have to pay the UAW workers somehow. Nainrouge, think longer term. The value of the US dollar is in the basement right now. Thats why oil is so high. We have less purchasing power globally. Should they give us a discount because our dollar isn't worth as much? Not happening. Check it on the web, traditionally, A pound sterling is worth 2 US dollars, now it's worth 4 US dollars. So if one were buying something from the UK, what would happen to the price? Same thing is happening to oil. Oil will come down when we get a government that gives two hoots in hell about this country, and stops worrying about other peoples' problems. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4767 Registered: 03-2006 |
No company who is forced to operate in a manner where employment levels, compensation, and benefits are disconnected from market forces, consumer demand and the financial health of the company can effectively compete against others who are operating their companies as an actual business and not a social program. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2851 Registered: 10-2003 |
The other issue is currency manipulation. If the Japanese and Chinese didn't artificially deflate their currencies in relationship to the US$, they wouldn't be selling any foreign produced products here. Those imported goods would be much more expensive. They need to keep the Dollar high in order to fuel their economic expansions. Many of the European and Asian manufacturers are looking to build more plants in the US due to the exchange rate and the cheap labor a low cost dollar provides. | ||
Ro_resident Member Username: Ro_resident Post Number: 275 Registered: 11-2003 |
I liked the guy stating he was going to put a turbine in a car. Chrysler tried that back in the 60s. Turbines are incredibly efficient and light weight. However, there are a huge issues with noise, heat and emissions. My cousin recently bought a 1983 Mercedes diesel station wagon that was converted to run on vegetable oil. The car does require diesel/biodiesel for starting. There is a separate fuel system for the vegetable oil that is heated by the cooling system. He has to manually switch over once the vegetable fuel tank and lines warm up. | ||
93typhoon Member Username: 93typhoon Post Number: 36 Registered: 04-2006 |
I can almost guarantee I can build a car in my garage that will get 50mpg - easy. Will it pass safety or emissions standards, will it start when it gets real cold, will it last 100,000 miles - that is another story. The devil is always in the details. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 546 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Turbines are incredibly efficient" Turbines are incredibly good at moving air, economical? No way. Turbine powered planes are just flying gas tanks. Fuel consumption is the main thing that killed the turbine car. | ||
Ro_resident Member Username: Ro_resident Post Number: 276 Registered: 11-2003 |
I was thinking in terms of hp/pound for the turbine engine compared to an IC unit. Maybe 'effective' would be a better term. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 3059 Registered: 11-2003 |
We'll, here's a couple of problems with this that I've caught off the bat: quote: Most people aren't aware of the fact that the "fuel" that this runs on needs to be heated up prior to being usable by the engine. A large solid chunk of grease doesn't flow through fuel systems very well otherwise. This is at a comfortable temperature. Just picture what this would be like during winter months. quote: There have been blurbs about a "supercapacitor" battery for several weeks now. Unfortunately, the company behind it has been unusually tight-lipped about exactly how this really works, and is reluctant to let others test and verify their claims. And turbine engines in consumer vehicles are nothing new. Chrysler was working on one beginning at least 60 years ago (there was a even model on display at The Detroit Historical Museum at one time), but due to long-term safety, liability issues and actions taken by the federal government, the model never went into production. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 547 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "the turbine will roar into action for a few seconds, powering a generator with such gusto" And this 100 kw "supergenerator" that recharges the "supercapacitor" weighs how much?? Super this super that. Comic books. It's strange that so many are convinced that a good battery is the only thing that a viable electric car is lacking. Or there is some cheap method of generating huge amounts of electricity in seconds. If that were the case they's be using this to power our homes way before they ever made it under the hood of a car. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 299 Registered: 05-2006 |
Best-selling models: Best-selling car nameplate - Toyota Corolla (more than 32,000,000 sold in nine generations since 1966) Best-selling vehicle nameplate - Toyota Corolla (more than 32,000,000 sold in nine generations since 1966) Best-selling single model - Volkswagen Beetle (21,529,464 of the same basic design sold worldwide between 1938 and 2003) Nah, your right - nobody wants a small car. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 550 Registered: 02-2007 |
^ Are these US markets only? Thats what was being discussed. (Those Beetle numbers look fishy, even for sole US market, I would've guessed much higher) In the US here it seems to go in cycle. Gas prices raise, many jump over to compacts, fuel prices go down or the economy adjusts and there is an abundance of cheap compacts on the market. It's probably a good cycle as it gives young folks an opportunity for a cheap first used car. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 579 Registered: 07-2007 |
my dad bought a honda accord in 1981 after buying all ford and gm products for forty years. It seems to me that 3 Detroit and the unions aren't interested in making economy cars, only high profits for the short term. Well welcome to 2008, now the small cars are ruling the streets and market share shrunk, I have almost given up on buying American and will probably buy the best mileage vehicle, non hybrid, there is, the only option is a Jap car, sorry to say. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 931 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Nainrouge, These world-wide sales figures are not valid in a discussion about US auto sales. Small cars are big sellers in most countries, but that is not the case in America: quote: http://autos.msn.com/advice/ar ticle.aspx?contentid=4023925 | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 300 Registered: 05-2006 |
In other words: Among the top ten sellers in 2006 were 1,796,285 trucks and 2,125,625 cars. Thanks for proving my point. Please tell me if you are talking about the domestic market or the international market. Your jumps in logic are making my head spin. Also, please do not use selective statistics. If you are going to quote a source, use the most accurate and recent data even if it doesn't support your point. From the same data source that you quoted, there is a nice article here: http://autos.msn.com/advice/ar ticle.aspx?contentid=4024876 - that talks about the 2007 figures and how truck sales are waning. Did you miss that or are you being purposefully misleading? Sucks when someone actually checks your sources, doesn't it? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2853 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry you haven't proven your point. Top ten is definitely not reflective of all light vehicle sales. Year to end of October there were 6,414,989 cars and 7,115,028 trucks Sold. The point is light trucks still outsell cars. F series trucks still outsell the camry by almost 2 to 1. So if we took a top 2, your argument wouldn't even be close to true. Taking the top 10 is just as misleading as taking the top 2. IF we took the top 15, I bet the argument flips back to trucks being dominant. If you include GMC sierra sales along with those silverados they easily outsell camrys 2 to 1. Sierras and Silverados are the same vehicle with different brand badges on them. The GM light pickup is the number one selling vehicle in the US. It just happens to have 2 brand names. If all the variants of the GM alpha SUV products had 1 nameplate, they would be right up there with the camry. Top ten sales are not reflective of the way cars are marketed. Toyota only has 3 brands. Scion, Toyota and Lexus. They have very little brand overlap. GM sells the same vehicle under it's many brands thereby breaking up the total sales for a platform. This moves the nameplates further down the best selling list. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2856 Registered: 10-2003 |
Also car sales Jan-Oct 2007 dropped 3.3% from the Jan-oct 2006, while truck sales only dropped 1.9% from the same period last years. The numbers still do not back up your assertions nainrouge. This is according to wardsauto.com. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 303 Registered: 05-2006 |
Ah, but once again you fail to mention that the October sales for trucks dropped 4% while car sales dropped only 1.2%. That was in the same Ward's report as the numbers that you quoted. Did you miss that? You are quite good at statistics manipulation. Ever consider politics? | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1649 Registered: 11-2003 |
I love how some people on the internet proclaim that if Detroit just sold really small, fuel efficient models EVERYBODY would buy them. As if they can't go out today and buy a really fuel efficient model right now. Aveo. Yaris. Fit. MINI. Versa. VW Diesel. Prius. You know how many cars those sell each year COMBINED?! Peanuts compared to the number of midsize sedans, SUVs, minivans and pickup trucks people buy. For every one person on the internet who says everyone would buy a small car if they made them, I have 2 replies: 1) you can go buy it right now, so put your money where your mouth is, and 2) there are thousands of other people, not posting on the internet, who have ZERO interest in buying and driving small cars. And if everyone did, indeed, want small cars. I GUARANTEE the automakers would provide them. If all the small cars I listed above were sold out, and everyone wanted one, and the market share was going through the roof, every single car company selling cars in the US would be diving in left and right. Witness the crossover craze to see what I'm talking about. Everyone wants a crossover. Suddenly every car company is making 3 of them. Exact same thing will happen if they ever want small cars the same way. So while I like small cars by choice (I drive a Miata), and I enjoyed the diesel cars I've driven in Europe, I'm not wearing the blinders that if they just sold them here they would sell a ton of them. They do sell them here. They don't sell a ton of them. End of story. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 304 Registered: 05-2006 |
I never said everyone needs to go buy a Yaris, what I said was that the trend was towards smaller cars and I disagreed with the following tired overgeneralization: quote: We consumers just continue to opt for large gas sucking vehicles with the largest engines we can pack into them. We continue to choose trucks over cars. We continue to spec the cars with V8's instead of sixes or fours. We continue to demand large, quiet, plush, Safe cars, packed full of every infotainment device known to man. We are unwilling to pay the same price for a smaller car. The trend IS towards smaller vehicles. Crossovers are smaller than Expeditions (whose sales are down almost 25%). Cars sales are up. This trend will continue. That was my point. End of story. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 603 Registered: 07-2007 |
i know this dude who knows a dude that picks up grease at restaurants. He like takes this oil shit from the rests. and converts it to bio fuel. wow. he then buts in in his diesel boat engine for fuel and does tours on his boat. He puts it in his boat cause the state doesn't tax him in the ass if it went into his truck. True. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2861 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Sorry, One month does not make a trend. September and October tend to have the most deviations from the trends. This is due to new product coming on line in the fall. September and October can be artificially held down due to the lack of recently introduced product at the dealerships. These months can also be pushed far higher by companies stapling dollars onto the hood of the vehicle trying to unload over production of a model year. This happened last year with Chrysler. It's more important to look at the year to year changes rather than one off months greatly influenced by availability and artificial incentives. I actually see it as good that October was a lower sales month. It means the Companies weren't putting heavy incentives in the system trying to move the overproduction of the previous model year. While there was some Year end clearance incentives this year, they didn't reach the huge levels we saw last year. | ||
Miesfan Member Username: Miesfan Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2007 |
Thanks for sharing Lefty. Your valuable insights and observations are always enlightening. How rare it is that we actually get to communicate with the friend of a friend of a grease hauler. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 306 Registered: 05-2006 |
Keep living in the past - NDavies! It's nice and comfy there. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2866 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Nice comeback, Well documented with actual facts to back up your faulty assertion. People who downsized will realize the difference in gas prices is tiny compared to the luxury of the vehicle they really wanted to buy. The difference between a vehicle that gets 25MPG Vs one that gets 40MPG for a driver who drives 12,000 miles a year is only $540 @ $3.00 a gallon. That's the difference between driving a Yaris and a Ford Edge. An extra $2500 over the 4 years they are going to own that vehicle is negligible. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 309 Registered: 05-2006 |
Not backing up my claims? Perhaps you didn't read this? http://autos.msn.com/advice/ar ticle.aspx?contentid=4024876 "Trucks continue to hold on to the top sales spots, but their dominance is beginning to wane. With nine months in the order books, total vehicle sales in the U.S. are trending slightly down, with numbers about 2.8 percent lower than the same period in 2006. But that doesn't tell the whole story. According to Automotive News, domestic vehicles are down just over four percent, while imports are up almost three percent as of September 2007. General Motors continues its lead in the U.S., but sales are down 6.6 percent so far this year. The other two Detroit-based car companies Ford and Chrysler are third and fourth on the list, but down 13.3 and 3 percent in sales, respectively. To further rub salt in Detroit's wounds, Toyota has seen a 3.8 percent increase in U.S. sales and is currently second on the top sales list. Honda and Nissan follow in the fourth and fifth positions, both showing sales increases. BMW is the top European brand in U.S. sales and also has a success story. The German automaker is showing an 8 percent increase in sales over last year. This puts BMW just slightly higher than the Volkswagen group in U.S. sales. The Ford F-Series remains in first place—the full-size pickup truck has been at the top of the best-sellers list in America for almost 25 years. But the Chevrolet Silverado is only 60,000 units behind, based on data for the last nine months. And while the data is based on vehicle nameplates, when combining the Silverado numbers with that of its GMC Sierra sibling, total General Motors pickup truck sales exceed 635,063 units sold compared to the F-Series at 537,211. However, all three vehicles have sold in fewer numbers than the previous year. The Toyota Camry is still the best-selling passenger car in America with 365,410 units sold—up 7 percent over the first 9 months of 2006. And Toyota continues its strong push in the market by fielding the third-best-selling passenger car in America with the Corolla. Trucks continue to dominate the top positions on the list—including the Dodge Ram in the 6th position—and also lead in overall sales, with trucks accounting for almost 51% of total U.S. sales. However, many of these truck sales can be attributed to the smaller, more fuel-efficient crossover utility vehicles. These include the Honda CR-V, which has seen a 44 percent increase in sales over 2006 to make it the bestselling SUV in America. The Hyundai Santa Fe has also seen great success with sales up 54 percent. At the same time, sales of larger SUVs continue to trend downward—the Toyota 4Runner is down 17 percent, while the Ford Explorer is almost 25 percent off sales from 2006. The Honda Accord, another perennial top seller, fills the 4th position with the smaller Civic taking 7th place on the list. The redesigned 2008 Honda Accord should help Honda continue its strong showing on the sales front. Chevrolet's Impala remains the best-selling domestic-branded passenger car, taking the 8th position. Sales for this recently redesigned sedan have increased almost 14 percent over last year. Nissan continues to show strong results with its popular Altima sedan. Ninth on the top-ten list, Altima sales are up more than 20 percent over last year. This includes sales of the recently launched Altima Hybrid as well as the new Altima coupe." Translation: Sales of big vehicles down, sales of cars up. Even people who are buying trucks and SUVs are buying smaller ones. Point proven. Case closed. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2869 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well CNN seems to completely disagree with MSN's article. quote: http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/0 1/news/companies/autosales/ind ex.htm?section=money_topstorie s So basing your claims on 1 tiny MSN article has dug you into a hole. CNN seems to be making the exact same arguments I have been. (Message edited by ndavies on November 06, 2007) | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 551 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote "To further rub salt in Detroit's wounds, Toyota has seen a 3.8 percent increase in U.S. sales" What ya got against Detroit? It's quite obvious you're trying to convince everyone here how bad the outlook is. Ok, you hate Detroit, It's products and happy it's not doing well. Point taken. Must be a reason, did someone fire you here? Did you buy an import and realize when it's paid off it will be worthless? Just curious. |
