 
Rocket_city
Member
Username: Rocket_city
Post Number: 530
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 10:28 pm: |    |
^ Echoed, Mack.
I liked this pic:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/ media/photo/2008-01/34728604.j pg
 |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4352
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 10:32 pm: | |
Yeah cool pic.
Foxyscholar, I agree, this process is insane. I wish there was one nationwide primary.
The uncommitted vote was large, and does send a statement. Hilary's exit polls were terrible among blacks and men. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6149
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 10:39 pm: | |
The last Michigan president (Ford) offered $600 million to Michigan for mass transit. I wouldn't call that chump change (1970's dollars).
Granted we may get more pork... but with our abysmal unemployment rate, every little bit helps.
McCain would be the oldest American president ever. I think that we need some younger blood and ideas. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4353
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 11:34 pm: | |
Romney's ideas aren't 'young.' Trying to hold on to manufacturing jobs ain't young. Plus, if he shows up in DC and talks about these things, no one will listen because no one cares. The rest of the country is in a different economic stratosphere, and very few people in DC think that it's good economic policy to protect American industry against competition.
Romney is a businessman, as he constantly reminds us; therefore, deep down, he knows that the market will take its course in Michigan's industries, and 50,000 laid-off auto workers really don't matter to DC politicians anyway.
With the Republicans having no clear direction, the door is still wide open for Rudy. I say watch out for him staring in a couple weeks. I also think that a former big city mayor might have a better understanding of what's going on in Michigan. I will hope for a McCain rebound, but this will be an entertaining race that could go all the way to the convention. |
Cartoonguy
Member
Username: Cartoonguy
Post Number: 98
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 11:58 pm: | |
Convinced parents (both life-long democrats)to vote for McCain, since Hillary was destined to win in a landslide.
My folks yelled at me when Romney won, but at least my vote in the primary in Wisconsin might mean something when I get to cast in on Feb 19th. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 341
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 12:31 am: | |
"With the Republicans having no clear direction, the door is still wide open for Rudy. I say watch out for him staring in a couple weeks."
Please come back in a few weeks to eat these words. Rudy is getting beat by Ron Paul consistently. Rudy's not a contender, he's a pretender. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4354
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:01 am: | |
All I said was watch out, not that he was going to be a big winner. Personally, I think he should have entered the race after Iowa-- his strategy is risky-- I'm just saying that he'll be a factor in the delegates race. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 3297
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:15 am: | |
quote:I believe it is the GOVERNOR who is typically responsible for a states poor economy, etc. and not the PRESIDENT.
That is true in states that don't have much foreign trade. Michigan is not one of those states.
quote:Romney is a businessman
So was Henry Ford when he instituted the $5 day. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 3298
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:24 am: | |
Clinton lost to "Uncommitted" in Emmet and Washtenaw counties, with Kalkaska county still unreported.
Primary results |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6151
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:38 am: | |
Political consultant/moderator Tim Skubic thinks that the DNC will allow the Michigan Democratic delegates to go to the convention.
He said to not do so, could be disasterous in November for the Democrats. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4355
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:42 am: | |
Thanks, Lilpup. Hilary is a bit too 'establishment' for Ann Arbor, no surprise. It's still a strong statement.
Gistok, the Clintons could probably make that happen if it benefitted them. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 342
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 3:25 am: | |
"All I said was watch out"
Watch out for what? His freefall into oblivion? I'm sure he'll snag a few delegates in Fla. and NY. Then what? Try to play king-maker? Rudy's all about his own ego and if he can't be President, he's not going to stick around so that he can anoint someone else to take the job that he believes he should be getting. |
Mrsjdaniels
Member
Username: Mrsjdaniels
Post Number: 317
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:41 pm: | |
Uncommitted - Obama - but I would have voted Gravel had I not been told repeatedly by Olberman that Gravel had dropped out after NH |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2530
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:46 pm: | |
quote:Political consultant/moderator Tim Skubic thinks that the DNC will allow the Michigan Democratic delegates to go to the convention.
He said to not do so, could be disasterous in November for the Democrats.
I think it would be even more disastrous if that happened and Michigan delegates ended up being the decision maker. That might make Michigan feel good but cause a lot more ill will around the rest of the country.
Plus Michigan doesn't really hold clout anymore like it used to... |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2531
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:54 pm: | |
quote:Hilary's exit polls were terrible among blacks and men.
I think Hillary has yet to win the male vote in any contest. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2532
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:58 pm: | |
quote:I believe it is the GOVERNOR who is typically responsible for a states poor economy, etc. and not the PRESIDENT. But our Governor isn't pulling through.I felt it was worth the risk to go with Romney. He has roots both in Michigan and our huge auto industry. He may actually help us.
I should have voted Clinton.
LOL.
::cough:: NAFTA ::cough::
I wonder will Hillary claim that as part of her experience mantra when she actually has to campaign in Michigan? |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4361
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 4:52 pm: | |
Novine I think your antipathy is getting in the way here. We'll see what happens. If your in Michigan, your chance to vote has passed anyway.
You understand that Giuliani has spent no money in the first three states, right? Past performance is not indicative of future potential. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1181
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 9:02 pm: | |
"Michigan has problems that only Michigan can solve"
Mack, I must disagree with part of that statement.
There is no reason that the Federal govt. had to raise Cafe standards. They could have left it alone instead of taking the stick that was laying next to the wounded patient and poking it directly in its collective eye!
Sure there are plenty of issues that are created here by incompetent management decisions made over decades, local execs that are afraid to point out that the emperor has no clothes and a mindless, gutless State govt that can't find its way to a spending cut if they are given the directions on Mapquest!
If Romney was in the White House, Cafe would have been vetoed as it should have been.
It is in the interest of both this state and this country to keep manufacturing businesses in the US.
Instead we have kooks from the coasts chase the myth of the moment and ignore our country's needs. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4363
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 9:33 pm: | |
CAFE shouldn't be such a hurdle. This is American industry that we are talking about. The Europeans and Asians can meet these standards, why the hell can't we? Where's the ingenuity? The government shouldn't coddle an industry. CAFE only helps them get up to speed and compete better, while cutting CO2 emissions. Achieving this will only help the automakers to sell cars...Americans are increasingly demanding green cars. Do you want foreigners to beat local companies in this, too? I guess the other alternative is more gas taxes...might as well bring those in, too. On one hand, it reduces driving demand and people's disposable income to spend on cars, hurting all manufacturers. On the other hand, it is a terrific way for the government to exploit citizens and increase revenues, because you know people will pay it, at least in this state.
Pick your poison. But I guarantee you this: Detroit will not be able to eschew environmental regulations altogether. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 3303
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 9:49 pm: | |
IF the Feds had really pushed the anti-oil agenda when Detroit started rolling out flex-fuel vehicles there wouldn't have even been CAFE talks.
Look at this and they're screaming at GM about it? |
Umtim
Member
Username: Umtim
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 9:51 pm: | |
Mc Cain, Romney and the Repubs will continue to pump $$$$ into Iraq. No money left over for development of cities.
No way they will benefit detroit or MI in any way. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 346
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 10:04 pm: | |
"You understand that Giuliani has spent no money in the first three states, right? Past performance is not indicative of future potential."
Is your day job shilling for penny stocks?
Guilani's claim to the nomination is that he's "America's Mayor", that he has a national reputation, and that his experience in NYC makes him most qualified to be president. It's not like he's some unknown that people need to buy into to support. Yet when voters are asked to make a selection, they'll take an libertarian fringe anti-war Congressman from Texas that 99.5% of America never heard of before the campaign started over Guiliani.
The only consistent outcome in the Republican primaries has been Guiliani's absolute failure to have any impact in any of the races. Why anyone is wasting time discussing his campaign when he's shown zero ability to garner voter support is beyond me. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 10:59 pm: | |
Lilpup,
Good post.
Mack,
You are essentially buying into the argument that "we are from the govt. and we are gere to help." Which, of course they are not.
We know the negative of the CAFE, as much as one might try to soft-pedal it. Europe (today) sells cars here. We sell trucks and SUVs.... this hurts us!
Here's the question for you:
What would have happened if the Feds had not passed CAFE?
What possibly could be in the public interest of the United States to pass such a damaging law to our industry and our citizens? |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 347
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:23 pm: | |
Just to keep the disinformation to a minimum, the claim that Guiliani has yet begun to fight is bogus, even by his own words:
Giuliani's Poor Showing in N.H. Comes after Considerable Effort
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics /Vote2008/story?id=4105498&pag e=1
Giuliani himself said, "We've actually spent the most time in New Hampshire and then Florida is right behind that."
http://mediamatters.org/items/ 200801090011?f=s_search |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4364
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:30 pm: | |
I'd say some people have decided that it is in the public interest to use natural resources more efficiently and to reduce pollution. That is public interest. It's the same logic as pollution scrubbers on factories. The cost gets passed along to consumers, and then the consumers will decide which car to buy based on the new, marginally higher prices.
I would never blindly think that the government is always here to help, and I can think of dozens of bad or misdirected types of regulation.
The best argument for removing CAFE is that it would free up money for long-term R/D that could yield new fuel technology sooner, thereby giving society a huge benefit rather than incremental small benefits. That's a great plan, and I wish it would be the case, but we all know that it's an uphill battle and union contracts will eat up any profit margins that the manufacturers might have. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1184
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:38 pm: | |
Mackinaw,
The end does not have to be a dark tunnel nor does it have to be an excuse for us to say "well we were doomed anyways so how much damage could the feds really have done?
As Detroiters and Michiganders, we should decry every and any attempt to put undo burdens upon the most visible industry of this region and indeed, still one of the most significant in the the world.
This whole lay over and die attitude that so many have taken on is pathetic.
To your earlier point, we are Americans, we have ingenuity... lets make it happen and in the interim, le's remind govt. that they are only welcome at the table as an ally, not a foe. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6161
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:55 pm: | |
quote:I think it would be even more disastrous if that happened and Michigan delegates ended up being the decision maker. That might make Michigan feel good but cause a lot more ill will around the rest of the country.
Plus Michigan doesn't really hold clout anymore like it used to...
Do you think that besides the politicians of Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina, that the regular folks even give a rats ass about the fact that Michigan and Florida leapfrogged over other states?
I don't think they really care. The politicians of other states might care, but maybe many of those politicians in other states are tired of the "early 3 states monopoly" as well, but didn't have the balls to do something about it like Michigan and Florida did.
As far as Michigan not having the clout that it used to... it still has more delegates than 40 other states, that's nothing to sneeze at. In fact it has more delegates (156) than Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada combined (137)!
But as far as regular folks in other state elections being pissed at Michigan and Florida... I highly doubt it. They have bigger fish to fry, such as the mortgage meltdown, the economy, and a dozen other concerns.
The biggest disaster is if the DNC pisses off Michigan and Florida voters by going thru with their threats... I highly doubt that the Democrats can win the White House without Michigan and Florida. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 3305
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:58 pm: | |
"The best argument for removing CAFE is that it would free up money for long-term R/D that could yield new fuel technology sooner"
alternative fuel capability is out there, but the fuel isn't - why would that be? - does the gov't really want to go to war for oil instead?
http://greyfalcon.net/e85stati ons.png |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 2701
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 9:46 am: | |
quote:Do you think that besides the politicians of Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina, that the regular folks even give a rats ass about the fact that Michigan and Florida leapfrogged over other states?
It was folks from those states who (along with Michigan) voted to create the schedule and, more importantly, voted to penalized Michigan for breaking the rules that we helped create.
I have to ask: Why would they create the rules and penalize us for breaking them if they didn't care? |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 2702
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 10:00 am: | |
quote:As far as Michigan not having the clout that it used to... it still has more delegates than 40 other states, that's nothing to sneeze at. In fact it has more delegates (156) than Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada combined!
Michigan does not have 156 delegates. We have 0. Rhode Island has more clout than we do.
quote:The biggest disaster is if the DNC pisses off Michigan and Florida voters by going thru with their threats. I highly doubt that the Democrats can win the White House without Michigan and Florida.
A better question is: Is Michigan prepared to endure another four more years of economic problems just because we got punished for breaking the rules that we helped to create in the first place? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2537
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:21 pm: | |
quote:I don't think they really care. The politicians of other states might care, but maybe many of those politicians in other states are tired of the "early 3 states monopoly" as well, but didn't have the balls to do something about it like Michigan and Florida did.
As far as Michigan not having the clout that it used to... it still has more delegates than 40 other states, that's nothing to sneeze at. In fact it has more delegates (156) than Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada combined (137)
Michigan is still a large state, but it's quickly getting crowded out of the large state game. It's one of only two states in the country that shrunk this year. Southern cosmopolitan states like Georgia might very well come on line this year as a potential swing state given it's changing demographics.
On top of that, Michigan's population drop signals a demographic shift there as well. It might be a lot more red heavy than it was 4 or 8 years ago. We don't really know yet.
Of course, all of this is speculative, but the 10 largest states Ca, Tx, NY, Fl, Il, Pa, Oh, Mi, Ga, NC account for over 53% of the US population. Remove Michigan from that and you still have over 50% of the US population. Georgia, NC, and Texas are probably seeing the biggest shift in demographic of any top 10 state. Georgia will probably be bigger than Michigan soon.
I think the DNC is probably a lot more concerned about pissing off a California, New York or even Georgia than Michigan right now. Plus, the contention won't be about Michigan moving it's primary up. It will be about Michigan being the decision maker for the nominee when none of the nominees even campaigned there. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6164
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 2:30 pm: | |
Frank, you're assuming we're (Michigan & Florida) is not going to be seated at the convention. Many political pundits have mentioned that both states will be seated by then for the sake of national unity. We'll have to see on that one. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 2703
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 3:43 pm: | |
Gistok, would you like a list a how many times political pundits have been wrong?
If Michigan or Florida plays their cards right, they might be able to get a portion (no more than half) of their delegates seated or be allowed to vote on everything but the nominee. That, however, is the best we can hope for.
For anyone who disagrees, you're invited to join the Great Faygo Wager. Post assertion here. If I'm wrong, I'll buy you a 6 pack of Faygo. If not, you owe me some root beer. |
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