  Nyct Member Username: Nyct Post Number: 90 Registered: 01-2007 |
interesting article explaining this phenomenon: http://article.nationalreview. com/?q=NjViZjQwMDQwMGVjZmM3YjY wNTVmZjYyNWI1MmRjYWE= | ||
Flyingj Member Username: Flyingj Post Number: 77 Registered: 08-2006 |
Nyct, Obama was guilty of a bigger whopper in a speech in the D; http://www.sqlspace.com/viewto pic.php?p=164621#164621 http://www.autobloggreen.com/2 007/10/11/video-obamas-new-tv- ad-has-detroit-fuel-efficiency -joke/ My engineer father will point out when it comes to CAFE these politicians oughtta be made to realize you you can't get blood from a stone-it's either cars made with smaller engines or lighter materials or both, then congratulations, you're the inventor of the Nano, Chery or the Geely, Better keep those E.R.'s open | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4448 Registered: 10-2003 |
Raise CAFE to 50 MPG. Necessity will become the mother of invention. Could you guess I am a little weary of the complacent Detroit companies whining while they keep milking the dead SUV / massive pickup cow? Not a Republican but I appreciated McCain's blunt "the jobs aren't coming back" in yesterday's debate. Shows me he was not afraid to talk about the elephant in the room. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3553 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hear, hear, Lowell. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3554 Registered: 10-2003 |
"...it's either cars made with smaller engines or lighter materials or both..." Exactly right. That will become the norm. SUVs, luxocruisers, muscle cars, and Hummers are dinosaurs. There's no room for frivolity in our future of $5- or $6-per-gallon gas. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3278 Registered: 06-2004 |
CAFE standards are stupid - higher standards just encourage people to drive more The auto companies are correct in what they're doing now - move toward flex fuel and alternative fuel vehicles in the vehicle classes Americans want to purchase and when will the activists go after the petroleum sucking aviation and plastics industries? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4324 Registered: 02-2005 |
That line that Lowell mentioned, and his overall sensibility over things like immigration, are typical examples of McCain's focus and realism. He's got my vote, and he should win Michigan. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11195 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Why does Toyota always get a free pass. They were in line with the Big 3 in fighting this. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 301 Registered: 02-2006 |
I apologize in advance for the sarcasm, but let's raise it to 100 MPG and really see those whining engineers squirm. Maybe we can get some of those politicans to revise the laws of thermodynamics and it'll become a reality. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11196 Registered: 10-2003 |
It is humorous that this topic brings so many 'experts' just saying that we need more innovation. I hate to break it to people but it isn't the easiest thing in the world. Hell, with a little innovation we should have flying cars, a balanced budget, well maintained infrastructure, decent foreign policy, cures for cancer and AIDS, end homelessness, etc. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3555 Registered: 10-2003 |
Seems like a 2200- or 2300-pound car with, say, a 1.2-liter engine and good aerodynamics would get pretty good mileage... natural technology and innovation "limitations" notwithstanding. After all, there are plenty of 500-pound, 750cc motorcycles that get 50 mpg as a matter of course. As more people drive small cars, the more it will become the norm, not the exception. And more will buy and drive those small cars as fuel prices continue to rise. (Message edited by Fury13 on January 11, 2008) | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1919 Registered: 05-2005 |
quote: damn straight! has no one seen what draggin your heals for decades has done to the local fucking economy? | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 197 Registered: 05-2006 |
First of all, the Detroit automakers are not the only ones opposed to CAFE standards of 35 mpg. Toyota is on record that they are opposed to the standards as well. There is a practical limit to how many mpg are feasible. This is because almost no one wants to spend an extra 8-10 thousand dollars on a car just for fuel economy. They also do not want to give up performance for better mileage. People will not accept what they do not want. Meanwhile cars and trucks represent one fifth of the co2 produced by the U.S. Why are there no c02 limits on any of the rest of the co2 producing entities? Why are they only focusing on cars? This is waaaay ahead of market demand and this will be a huge failure. You cant shove products down consumers throats if they don't want it. People will replace parts and be driving around in their 2008 malibus in 2040. why don't they tax the gas like they do in europe? CAFE standards are bogus and unrealistic. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 362 Registered: 05-2006 |
I love how the people who are opposed to higher CAFE standards come up with the idiotic argument that it will "Cost Michigan Jobs". Uh hello? Did you ever stop and think not raising them in 20 years (Which has happened), has cost us already in the state hundreds of thousands of jobs? How many Hummers do you think GM is selling now? Go ahead produce the gas pigs you want to continue to produce that people won't be buying because gas will be $4.00 a gallon before long. If we don't force the automakers to get off their you-know-whats- and produce highly efficient vehicles they will loose way more jobs if they continue the status quo over the past decade. | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 198 Registered: 05-2006 |
Uh hello, I don't even think I mentioned jobs. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 363 Registered: 05-2006 |
No- I didn't mean to point out to what you said specifically, and if it came across that way, sorry as it was not the intent. That comment comes from hearing YEARS of politicians and others gripe that upping CAFE standards will cost jobs, when we have not raised them, and are ironically are in one the worst economies in decades. I would reason, had they been increased a decade ago, and vehicles would get better mileage by this point in time, our consumption, and demand for oil would be less, and our economy would be in much better shape than it currently is where we are headed for major inflation. When Carter pushed energy conservation in the late 70's early 80's (Despite being unpopular at the time) it did not have an overnight effect, but it sure helped the economy in the late '80s when oil prices actually declined, which is something Reagan ironically benefitted from. While CAFE standards might not be the best way to address the issue, unfortunately I think regulation (Which is what CAFE standards are) is the only way to get the automakers to act accordingly. If you don't hold a gun to their head, it won't happen, otherwise they would have done it long ago. As for the argument that Americans hate small cars, etc, this won't hold any water when gas is $5 a gallon. They may like their pick-up now, but when it cost $200 to fill one up, they'll change that tune. Besides, after having driven several fuel-efficient smaller cars in Europe, many people would buy these same cars here, if they were available. I drove a VW Golf Diesel in Germany last summer and got 52-mpg, and went 118-mph in it. Did I feel somehow compromised? Absolutely not, it was a joy to drive. Yet I can't buy this same vehicle here, but there are great deals on Hummers at the moment, which will soon be worth a boat-anchor. (Message edited by Cinderpath on January 11, 2008) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4811 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:Quit crying over spilled gas. Detroit brought the current situation upon itself. Some 75% or more of vehicles in metro Detroit have been trucks for eons already. Few were bitching before they or their family members lost their jobs. It's still a long-term 1-state recession, even in a softening national economy. The employees of the Detroit Three could have purchased sedans and such. But few did and do. Ditto, for the local population at large. Ford is essentially a truck company and won't be around much longer. Figure on Honda, Daimler, or Toyota buying the Ford truck line during bankruptcy next decade. Ditto for the parts of GM. In any event, it's a Detroit problem, and nobody else really cares. The national economy won't be much affected after GM and Ford are history. They're relatively unimportant now. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 6902 Registered: 11-2004 |
"Ford is essentially a truck company and won't be around much longer." I'm hoping this won't be the case because of the history the company has to this city, but it made me think that Ford truly might be a truck company. They make the F150 which sells like crazy. They've still got the iconic Mustang but beyond that, I'd be willing to bet that a fair amount of people here might be hard pressed to name more than five of their other non-truck/ passenger vehicles that were made in 2008. Maybe? Maybe not? | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 364 Registered: 05-2006 |
Quit crying over spilled gas. Detroit brought the current situation upon itself. -This is 101% correct. Few were bitching before they or their family members lost their jobs. It's still a long-term 1-state recession, even in a softening national economy. I disagree with you here- we are headed for a national recession because of 3 basic factors A "PERFECT STORM" is on the horizon: 1) Housing market/Mortgage debacle, which will reduce credit and disposable income, which will hinder auto sales. 2) High oil prices 3) Weak Dollar- both of which will bring high inflation, which is a result of: A) High trade deficit B) High budget deficit And yes, a lot of this is a result of bad public (political) policy. And yes, when the country gets an economic cold, we get the flu here. In any event, it's a Detroit problem, and nobody else really cares. The national economy won't be much affected after GM and Ford are history. They're relatively unimportant now. -Yep outside of this state, the Big 3 don't mean a lot. We in this state better take a look around, it is a big world out there. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3279 Registered: 06-2004 |
"We in this state better take a look around" perhaps you need to open your eyes to what's going on here the auto industry isn't planning on being so gasoline dependent much longer | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4812 Registered: 10-2004 |
The Detroit Three will disappear and go the way of the US home entertainment industry three decades ago. The national economy cannot help Detroit because Ford and GM are still plagued by legacy costs and by a disgruntled Tier support base--who prefer to sell their goods and services to Toyota and Honda, at a higher profit margin. The national economy can only hasten the inevitable, but it didn't cause Detroit's dysfunctionalities. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 366 Registered: 05-2006 |
I am looking around, and am in the industry, and yes things are finally changing, but a lot of people in this state are indeed provincial, and do need to look around. Its not like we didn't see high gas prices coming a decade ago, merely from China's rising consumption and GDP alone was harbinger of things to come. We are a little late coming to the party. (Message edited by Cinderpath on January 11, 2008) | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3280 Registered: 06-2004 |
"Its not like we didn't see high gas prices coming a decade ago, merely from China's rising consumption and GDP alone was harbinger of things to come" This would be a much better argument if the oil companies weren't posting record profits. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4813 Registered: 10-2004 |
Overpaying the workers in the US auto industry means that its selling prices have to be pegged higher OR they have to cut costs elsewhere. They cannot cut prices in a competitive marketplace, so they nickel and dime wherever and whenever they can and do. The US marketplace is doing Detroit in. Detroiters wanted to be paid more and more for decades for a relatively uneducated workforce. And now the grim reaper has been taking his withdrawals at the former and current Detroit firms. IT and marketing firms are losing contracts, etc. Tiers, dependent on the Detroit Three, are going bust. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on January 11, 2008) | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3281 Registered: 06-2004 |
"Overpaying the workers in the US auto industry" you're correct in that Toyota hasn't disavowed using suppliers who implement slave labor if you except US wages to lower to Chinese, Indian, Mexican, etc. rates you might as well write off the whole country | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4814 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:Gosh! I had no idea that the auto industry in Tennessee, Indiana, Ohio, Alabama, etc. was abusing their workers so much. Maybe, we should start fund drives and send them CARE packages of food and stuff. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3282 Registered: 06-2004 |
"I had no idea that the auto industry in Tennessee, Indiana, Ohio, Alabama, etc. was abusing their workers so much" Their pay is not substantially different from other US autoworkers. The primary differences were benefits and legacy costs, which were addressed by the latest contract agreement. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4815 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:Then, according to you, there should be no major differences between the non-Detroit auto firms and their competitors in this country. Therefore, there should be no problems. And Detroit will rise again. The latest UAW accord took care of everything. Eventually, any unfunded health and pension problems will cease to exist. At least, according to the Gospel of Lilpup. But, I don't foresee the taxpayers willingly coughing up their tax dollars for any unfunded retiree benefits, BTW. Pension funds, too, are at risk in a floundering economy. It should come as no surprise that the national legislators and those in the executive have been avoiding Michigan like the plague. After the January primary, Michigan will not see any more candidates until after the nominations and, maybe, not even then. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on January 11, 2008) | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3283 Registered: 06-2004 |
"non-Detroit auto firms and their competitors in this country" The non-Detroit auto firms import more vehicles to sell here. The Detroit firms still employ more people in the US than the foreign companies do. I suppose you'd like to see Ford and GM cut more manufacturing jobs here so that their domestic employment levels match Toyota's US employment level? (Message edited by lilpup on January 11, 2008) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4816 Registered: 10-2004 |
Europe produces more vehicles than does the US, BTW. Sorry to shake your cage. Besides, the auto industry also includes the Tiers,which you conveniently forgot to mention. The Tier/automaker ratio for employees is probably around 7 to 1. But that ratio probably was altered just a wee bit because the 10 PM news mentioned that the Ypsi GM transmission plant just fired 200 workers there. And as a kicker, Ford also announced their firing of some in Grand Rapids--didn't catch the number, though, because that's the first time I heard of it. (Not even sure that it was Ford, but that's how I thought it sounded on the WJR news a few minutes ago.) That's probably how Ford and GM are solving the legacy problem, right? At least those workers made it past Christmas. GM fired almost all their contracted IT workers in two stages just before Christmas for two years in a row around 2001 or so. 9:51 PM Freep story: (GM and Ford like to dump their bad news nearly always over the weekends it seems.) GM will lay off 200 at Ypsilanti Twp. plant (Message edited by LivernoisYard on January 11, 2008) |
