  Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4459 Registered: 10-2003 |
Good news or just more corporate handout? quote:Full article -Crain's "Cobo may be tax-free zone" State may give $150M for expansion By Daniel Duggan | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 207 Registered: 01-2007 |
Sounds like a good place to buy a boat or camper... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4834 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:Sounds fabulous for dealers in those products who don't ante up for space there... So, the state government plans to control private industries in the state through their tax systems. Sounds like the collusion with the federal legislature and IRS R&R. Ditto for any states who social engineer via the tax codes. However, when the private companies eventually quit the business and leave it to those firms working hand-in-glove with the various levels of government, the citizen consumers shouldn't complain that the once competitive private sector will be reduced to insignificance afterwards when they might want services and repairs. Oops, I forgot--services will be controlled and mandated by the (obviously socialist) government, too! | ||
Cmubryan Member Username: Cmubryan Post Number: 512 Registered: 11-2003 |
120,000 is kind of disappointing. That's like the size of a grocery store. A typical new Meijer is around 200k sq feet. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3225 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Good news or just more corporate handout?" Some people just don't understand how this stuff works. "Ficano expects the state's loss in sales taxes to be offset by greater spending in the region as people stay in local hotels and eat at local restaurants." It's not a handout if you're getting something more valuable in return. I know you asked the question, "good news OR handout", but it's pretty ridiculous that you even tried to compare this situation in the first place to that of lazy dumbsh*ts who live off welfare and give nothing back to the state in return. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3226 Registered: 06-2006 |
"120,000 is kind of disappointing. That's like the size of a grocery store. A typical new Meijer is around 200k sq feet." I think I read somewhere that NAIAS is only asking for an additional 100,000 sq feet for their own show... | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4574 Registered: 10-2003 |
Seems like a decent idea to me. This isn't favoring any particular business, it is only encouraging businesses to participate in conventions and sell their products there. My guess is that businesses would be thrilled at the opportunity to sell their products tax-free once a year at a show, and consumers would be thrilled to purchase them there. Hardly "socialism". | ||
Waymooreland Member Username: Waymooreland Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2007 |
Some kind of expansion really needs to happen and the tax-free zone sounds like a good idea, but a couple of concerns: -I agree with several previous posters that 120,000 sq. ft. is just a band-aid rather than a long-term solution to this problem. -What the hell is up with Ficano's obsession with building a giant, covered walkway all the way from Cobo to RenCen? That's one of the most hideous development concepts I've ever heard! What would that be, a quarter-mile long? I mean, if it's so much trouble to walk down Jefferson, then take the People Mover, for Christ's sake! Furthermore, the walkway is expected to cost $25 million -- why not put that money towards a larger expansion? I'm sorry, but I have to side with L. Brooks on this particular point! | ||
Thegryphon Member Username: Thegryphon Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2007 |
Why not cut out the Rock Financial Showplace? I can understand the De Vos Convention Center (a measure to please the west side ) but why not steal away those suburban shows and put them in Cobo? That's where they belong anyway. | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 307 Registered: 10-2006 |
"One Rain drop raises the Sea" | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 339 Registered: 07-2007 |
It would be interesting to see the studies on tax-free zones and whether they actually generate any long-term economic impact. Let's face it, how many people are going to go shopping there and then go to a local restaurant or stay at a hotel? Plus, how are local businesses going to feel about some out-of-state operation rolling into town for a show and being able to sell tax-free products while the local store gets no such advantage? | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 418 Registered: 09-2006 |
They have to do something to expand Cobo quickly. It has taken 30 years to assemble the necessary package to attract numerous quality conventions,-- good restaurants, hotels, casinos and entertainment etc. It makes absolutely no sense to not make the central exhibition place the building it needs to be. Its like making a pie with no crust. | ||
Michigansheik Member Username: Michigansheik Post Number: 256 Registered: 09-2005 |
At other convention centers you can walk directly from you hotel room to the convention floor without going outside, that's why Ficano wants the walkway. But I say take out the Joe and build a hotel there (with some residences too) and connect that to Cobo. Also connect the Sheraton too, the Marriott Ren Cen just needs a nice shuttle, IMO. Cobo is unique in that it can easily draw visitors from Canada too. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3240 Registered: 06-2006 |
yeah this $25 million, quarter-mile walkway is just stupid... dumbest idea any local politician has come up with in a long time | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 313 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote:And a few years after they get 120,000 additional square feet...they'll say they need another 100,000 square feet. If they keep doing band-aid fixes, the whining for more space will never stop. | ||
Baltgar Member Username: Baltgar Post Number: 97 Registered: 06-2006 |
Dnvn522 - I agree the band-aid fixes with taxpayer money is not going to cut it. Helping out a hotel with a $25M walkway is just silly. Where are all the people showing that 9 of 10 convention centers lose money and those conventions have been stagnated at 1993 levels for number of years. http://www.brookings.edu/metro /pubs/20050117_conventioncente rs.pdf I understand trying to keep the NAIAS, but haven't we heard this argument for the last decade. We need a comprehensive approach to making Cobo as profitable as possible and not cater to one tradeshow. The good parts about this proposal are to buy Cobo from COD and alleviate the sales tax. This may help make it easier to achieve profitability in the future. IMO, you need three key factors to make it profitable: 1. Multi-use (so it can be used more often with less dead time) 2. Low construction costs 3. Low Operational costs (better union contracts and sustainability) Right now I only see #2 as a possibility with this proposal. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4605 Registered: 10-2003 |
That Brookings report may not tell the whole story when talking about Detroit. It shows convention attendance down at many convention centers. With figures like only 1,100,000 people attending conventions in a city's center during a recent year. That may be bad for Las Vegas or Orlando, but it certainly wouldn't be bad for Detroit. Detroit just needs feet on the sidewalks. Downtown has come a long way, but some pedestrian traffic could really push it over the top. In other words, Detroit could use some of those other cities' "1993 levels", and it may have a larger impact here than a more prosperous city. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4854 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: JL: Wishful thinking = pipe dreams In case you don't know--And it's obvious that you don't--what follows are the NAIAS attendance figures since 2000. The best year was 2003. The drop of attendance can easily be observed, when viewed with an objective eye... 2000 802,301 2003 810,699--record attendance five years ago 2004 808,833 2005 773,422 2006 759,310 (In 2007, DADA made this statement: “Last Year’s Show Statistics The North American International Auto Show 2006 attracted near-record attendance, with 759,310 persons attending the public show.” (NAIAS: “2007 Auto Show a Huge Success despite Attendance dip”) | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4613 Registered: 10-2003 |
I see the Auto Show as a bit of an anomaly. A lot (not all) of the attendees are from the Metro Detroit area. Las Vegas' conventions bring in people from all over. Many National companies choose to have their annual conventions there. Bring in a million convention goers throughout the year that are NOT from metro Detroit, and it would have a bigger impact on the city. People FROM metro Detroit are just going to drive straight home afterwards, because they can. Visitors from out of town need a hotel room, have down time they can use to enjoy the city, etc. Obviously a bigger convention center isn't going to make more conventions come, but an improving downtown, and a tax-free zone might. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4855 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: An anomaly can occur in the form of a stubborn die-hard who refuses to face reality. Convention centers have really never panned out over the past three decades. Even though, many municipalities kept building them, and taxing their residents for those failures. The Dane County Coliseum in Madison never paid off (with profits) any of its capital costs and only broke even two years during its first twenty years--over a decade ago. The UW Badger hockey team hasn't played there in a decade. That was probably the biggest use of the place. So, it sucks with even more money down the drain. Yet, Madison went "forward" and built yet another convention center ten years ago--bringing its total to three in the city and one (in the private sector) in the Middleton suburb. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4616 Registered: 10-2003 |
Madison, Wisconsin, population of around 200,000 people? A fair comparison? I'm not trying to be stubborn, I'm simply throwing out some thoughts on the matter, and hoping to hear the thoughts of others. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6141 Registered: 08-2004 |
Livernoisyard... in view of your perpetual negativism... only you would equate dropping a 6% sales tax for convention related sales... with socialism, and collusion with the federal government and the IRS. Funny that!  | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4856 Registered: 10-2004 |
People move there, BTW. Back when Fortune rated all of the top 300 cities together instead of grouping them by size, Madison often made the top ten and even was the #1 city in Fortune 300 Top cities to live. Also, around 50,000 of those people are college students. Madison has around 225,000 in the city. And its suburbs are growing at a fast clip. There's even an Indian casino there, taking the place of the failed water park a few miles from downtown. I think there are about five to ten murders in a given year. Sometimes, fewer. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 315 Registered: 11-2004 |
And what does Madison being a great place to live have to do with Cobo and the NAIAS? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4857 Registered: 10-2004 |
Madison has convention centers built during the 1960s and 1990s. They're a source of local pride in a wealthy city. Detroit wants its toys for local pride in the form of rapid transit and a larger convention center. However, Detroit is broke and taps heavily upon its residents and the state and federal governments for its operating funds. It overpays its employees and doesn't ever seem to fire any of them. Yet, its mayor wants to double the city's bonded debt (over $2 billion already), so the city can waste even more and overpay even more. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on January 15, 2008) | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 277 Registered: 07-2005 |
I'm not sure what Madison Wisconsin has to do with this discussion. The point is that the Auto Show is that one of the most important auto shows in the world. All indications are that it will not remain one of the most important auto shows in the world unless COBO is expanded (reasonable people can disagree whether 120,000 square feet is sufficient-- I'll assume that the people who run the Auto Show are in the best position to know). Why do we want the Auto Show to be one of the premier auto shows in the world? Because the participants spend over 200,000,000 building their exhibits. They employ approximately 1,000 starting in October and they purchase a large amount of their supplies and materials from local suppliers. In addition, over 6,700 media members attend from over 60 countries. Not only do they spend money on hotels, food and transportation, but they also shine the media spotlight on the City. On balance, I view this as a positive. I'm not sure how many of the paid attendees are from out of town, but my purely anecdotal experience would indicate that there are quite a few people who travel here to see the show. The economic impact has been estimated at over $500,000,000 a year. This is higher than the Superbowl. The buzz around the Auto Show allows it to raise millions of dollars every year for local charities. This isn't necessarily about attracting additional conventions. COBO is big enough for the vast majority of conventions that it is in competition for. It is about preserving COBO's place among the elite Auto Shows and protecting this windfall. Period. It is not about some pie in the sky belief that Detroit is going to steal all of Las Vegas' conventions. It is about protecting what we already have. I'm not sure how anyone can argue that COBO hasn't more than paid for itself with the economic activity it has been responsible for. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4858 Registered: 10-2004 |
Nonsense. If the NAIAS leaves, the regional auto show in Detroit will rack up less (but not that much less) revenue and economic impact. But there will still be much impact, nonetheless. Besides, the economic impact figure is a lot of "hand-waving" BS anyway. The economic impact from a smaller (or similar sized) show would be much the same. And the taxpayers won't have to overpay for any Cobo building. The above post is merely more of the local-pride nonsense that's becoming a harder and harder sell to convince the taxpayers. As long as Ford and GM exist, the NAIAS will be in Detroit. And if and when they are gone, few in Detroit will care and far fewer another decade into the future will much remember. And somebody will start an Old GM or Old Ford thread for nostalgia. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 422 Registered: 09-2006 |
I agree with Spartacus totally, the impact of the Auto show on this area is extremely significant. With a expanded Cobo ( whatever size, as long as sufficient)will only increase these revenues in the form of additional business. We have put together the casinos,hotels, restaurants,and other entertainment and sports venues . With the proper sized exhibition space Detroit is a very marketable option for many conventions. A good convention experience leads to more. Organizers love to keep their attendees entertained. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 1050 Registered: 09-2005 |
I said this last year (and for the record I am not against a reasonable expansion of Cobo -- not that I have a vote anyway), but it would be cheaper to put a nice, fancy tent on the roof during the NAIAS. Sure this would displace some parking, but it would increase capacity during the event. I recognize the major criticism (other than parking) is that this will not allow the NAIAS to have one continuous floor space. It should be noted that the auto show in Toronto usually uses three separate buildings. | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 107 Registered: 12-2007 |
I think you are off your rocker LY. Whenever someone posts an argument that correctly rebuffs yours, you attack them personally and say their argument consists merely of local-pride. The writing is on the wall. Losing the auto-show would be another nail in an almost closed coffin. |
