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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1410
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce, could you please post all of your Detroit Catch 22's. I find them rather interesting and would like to discuss them.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 11390
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ooh...
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2520
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitrise, I see that you are calling me out. Well, this is a partial list. I'll add more later. First, big box retail is needed but the only places where you can build it is in neighborhoods that are full of vacant lots and abandoned homes, and where the land may be difficult to assemble because of private ownership. Also, the people who live there don't have the income to keep the businesses running and the stores will be more prone to theft because of that fact.

Detroit has a riverfront but very little access to the water for recreational purposes - Ski-dos are really illegal to ride on the river and there's no beach on the mainland side of the city. Also, the riverfront has all of this land but needs money for environmental clean-up for residential development(Uniroyal site in particular).

Detroit's historic neighborhoods like Boston-Edison, Palmer Park, Indian Village, and Rosedale Park have beautiful but old homes which are huge, and hard to maintain. How do you keep these neighborhoods going if the people who can afford to live in them have left? Who nowadays wants to live in a 16 room mansion, surrounded by blocks that are crime-riddent or run-down?

These are just a few catch-22s to ponder. I will return later for some more.

(Message edited by royce on January 21, 2008)
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1413
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah ok.

I actually do like them. They're really something to ponder on.

What can the city and its residents do to fix the issue though has been the question. for example, Do we just build higher density retail in the historic neighborhoods with higher income?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 3332
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Ski-dos are really illegal to ride on the river"

Jetskis are illegal on the river? Why?
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Hudkina
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Username: Hudkina

Post Number: 99
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think the Big Box dilemma is as pronounced as you might think. Or at least there are other issues besides "land availability" that are affecting why there are few big box stores in the city.

You'd be surprised how easy it would be to string together a few parcels of land if you really wanted to build something. Look at that strip mall at the corner of Alter and Mack near the Grosse Pointe Park border. It took over the width of 2 1/2 blocks or the equivalent of about 60 residential lots.

That new development going in at 7 Mile and Woodward cleared several blocks of land for their new project.

The land near 8 Mile and Woodward is actually going to add more than one big box store.

Land in Detroit is cheap, and if a business really wanted to set up shop in the city, they probably wouldn't have trouble stringing together the land.

In fact, I think one of the best places to put a big box store would be where Grand River, Plymouth, Oakman, and 96 all come together. The area bounded by Grand River, Oakman, Elmhurst, and I-96 is about 30 acres which is more than enough space to build a Wal-Mart or a Meijer as well as a few smaller stores such as a CVS and a McDonald's.

You have a major crossroads there that would easily draw from northern Dearborn, the middle-class neighborhoods near Palmer Woods/University District as well as the high-density neighborhoods near Boston-Edison/Virginia Park.

Hell, I wouldn't doubt most Detroit residents would pick that store over the stores in Livonia, Allen Park, Southfield, etc.

Granted, I have no idea who owns the lots or whether or not they'd be willing to sell. And you have to take into consideration contamination, etc. But regardless, if the city did all they could to make the land as if it had only been growing corn, maybe they can get Wal-Mart or Meijer to come into the city.
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Gmich99
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Username: Gmich99

Post Number: 259
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The real Catch 22 is that you need more businesses to attract more affluent residents and you need affluent residents to attract more businesses.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1811
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You need more industry here. But manufacturing seems to prefer larger parcels with access to trucking connections. But lots of our industrial parcels are smaller and abut rail lines, not interstates.
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Rsa
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Username: Rsa

Post Number: 1372
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the only person here who has correctly stated a catch-22 in detroit (even though i don't necessarily agree with the theory) is gmich99. most people are just stating what they think the problem and solution is.

definition:
quote:

1: a problematic situation for which the only solution is denied by a circumstance inherent in the problem or by a rule <the>; also : the circumstance or rule that denies a solution
2 a: an illogical, unreasonable, or senseless situation b: a measure or policy whose effect is the opposite of what was intended c: a situation presenting two equally undesirable alternatives



[from merriam webster dictionary]

a prime example of a catch 22 detroit style is: detroit needs more hotel rooms to attract more conventions. however, hoteliers will not build any more hotel rooms due to the lack of conventions. this is a fun one because we'll very soon see if it's true or not (with the proliferation of casino hotels, etc.).
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 682
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

detroit IS a catch 22.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 11391
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lilpup,

Dunno the exact statute and who controls it, but when we used to put our jetskis in down in Wyandotte, it was common knowledge that once past the Ambassador Bridge you couldn't be on the Detroit side of the midline of the river.


We once rode to Belle Isle and back on a Monday morning, kept close to the line, and got a visit from the boys in orange. It was pretty freaky, and that was three or four years ahead of 9/11...so it could only have gotten tighter with Homeland Security concerns.


I've seen jetskis on the river since, this year during the RiverWalk and a few other times near that marina east of the RenCen...but never for long and not consistently.
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Diehard
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Username: Diehard

Post Number: 243
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's one: The school system is horrible, but voters are too undereducated to elect an effective school board that can turn it around.
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Hudkina
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Username: Hudkina

Post Number: 103
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 5:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A better example:

The schools are ineffective because the students don't want to learn, but the students don't want to learn because the schools are ineffective.
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Mauser765
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Username: Mauser765

Post Number: 2358
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 5:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The school system is horrible, but voters are too undereducated to elect an effective school board that can turn it around."

Thats pretty close to being simply ironic.
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 1848
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The spot, to which Hudkina referred, where Grand River, Plymouth, Oakman, and 96 converge does, truly, seem like it could have a lot of unrealized potential.
There is a fairly large building, which appears to be in good condition, on Plymouth just west of that spot. I don't know its history or present internal condition.
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Markopolo
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Username: Markopolo

Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 7:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diehard is closer to the real problem Detroit is facing but has been unable to solve for more than 30 years. Like the slogan Bill Clinton’s campaign used in the 90s when they said, “it’s the economy, stupid. The challenge for Detroit is the educational system. And someone should look Detroiters square in the face and tell them so. It’s the schools, stupid. Education is fundamental to any renaissance in Detroit. Aside from the 200 pound gorilla of racism we all know is in the room, Detroit’s schools are the biggest obstacle to any turnaround. But by bringing a quality, progressive and contemporary educational philosophy to Detroit (and this is a long-range solution) the city will be able to compete for middle income residents. The biggest question is how is this to be done. Detroit can build the greatest educational infrastructure on the planet, but if the kids have to go home to Mack and Bewick not much will change. So we come to a chicken and egg question. In this instance it is not what came first, but what do we do first. Fix the poverty that breeds crime, violence and a disregard for the opportunities derived from a good secondary education in neighborhoods like Dexter and Elmhurst. And if so how? I don’t know. We can’t have an education Gestapo following the children home to insure there is a good environment in which to study once they get there. We can’t throw a bunch of money at their parents, hoping they will do the right thing with the cash. I just don’t know how it can be accomplished. But I do know that this country needs some sort of national urban policy if we ever hope to get our cities back. I am a life-long Detroiter, black and not a racist, just a realist.

(Message edited by Markopolo on January 22, 2008)
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Lombaowski
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Username: Lombaowski

Post Number: 83
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 7:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People complain about crime but have trouble trusting the police or seeing what actually happened when a crime was committed because of fear of retribution.
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 951
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 1:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bad parent(s) usually raise bad kids.
The government tries to take the place of parents.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2558
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 2:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

>Markopolo

My money is still on the economy...





...stupid.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2536
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Surface parking lots versus parking structures. A structure would allow the parking lot owner to park more cars and make more money, but to build the structure means no revenue for several months. Thus another catch-22 in Detroit.

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