  Brian_fitzcarraldo Member Username: Brian_fitzcarraldo Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2007 |
Just saw this recent series in the Philly Enquirer about police tactics in various towns and neighborhoods. Reminds me of the Grosse Pointes, where anyone who's black or driving a crappy car can pretty much expect to get pulled over after midnight. Anyone have stories? http://www.philly.com/inquirer /gallery/12595781.html | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3271 Registered: 06-2006 |
I've gotten pulled over for driving a crappy car after midnight in Livonia before | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2568 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: Well, point proven. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3272 Registered: 06-2006 |
^I'm only one example, so I'd hardly say that proves a point...I think most would agree...it nonetheless supports the proposition in the original post | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 148 Registered: 12-2007 |
I was pulled over in West Dearborn at 3:15 in the morning, IN a neighborhood, for failing to signal on a right turn. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4753 Registered: 10-2003 |
http://www.realclearpolitics.c om/articles/2007/10/driving_wh ile_black.html I read this article recently. Thomas Sowell, definitely holds a conservative bias. Not an endorsement, I think profiling definitely happens, but I think unfounded claims of it happen as well. Race topics are never easy! In the suburbs, you do get the "big fish in a small pond" thing going with the cops, too. I was pulled over in Franklin once, because my car wasn't expensive or new enough. No ticket, no warning, no reason. Just checked ID and moved on. Didn't like my 89 Prelude. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4754 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh yeah, on top of that, remember to throw in our particular area's history with race, and realize that nationwide studies or trends may not apply as well to our unbelievably segregated metro area. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3635 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, you have to weed out the riff-raff somehow.  | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1815 Registered: 07-2004 |
^^Except on DetroitYES! | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4755 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sometimes people don't want to face the reality of things. When I was younger, I used to dress like a punk. I used to get hassled by the 5-0. Of course I did, I looked like I was trouble. I wasn't really trouble (well, not too much), I just looked like it. I would complain, too. Man, those cops are just bothering me because I don't conform to the suburban robot ways. Well, yeah, basically they were. But, of course if you are going to present yourself as a thug, you shouldn't really be surprised when others interpret you as being one! We've got to cut our law enforcement a little slack. It's a tough job, they do put themselves in personal danger. For all they know, when they pull you over to give you a ticket, they could be shot dead on the spot. | ||
Innovator Member Username: Innovator Post Number: 77 Registered: 07-2006 |
The plural of anecdote is not data. | ||
Scooter2k7 Member Username: Scooter2k7 Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2007 |
Don't break law and you will not be pulled over! | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1816 Registered: 07-2004 |
Jesus christ. Cops are just like any other people. Working people put their lives on the line every day too, in factories, workplaces, etc. Police work is not the most dangerous job there is. I can understand saying it's not an easy job, but for all the risk of being a cop, I object to mindless cop-worship. Yeah, real brave, those police. So brave, they have to break into your house wearing a mask at night, scare your family, and don't even apologize after finding out they went to the wrong house. Did they tase you? Did they pepper-spray your wife or scare the piss out of your kids? See if you can press your case against them. See if they get so much as a week without pay. Police often claim they are victims of unfair biases and unrealistic expectations. Maybe that was true in the past. My dad was a cop. He says that, in those days, a cop knew everybody in his neighborhood. Your neighborhood cop was on the street every day, and when he retired, your neighbors all held a block party for him. I think those days are gone. There are some good cops out there. But cop-worship has reached a point in this country where it doesn't do the people, or the police, any good. Like any other public occupation, cops need to be accountable for what they do. Unthinking demands that we "support your local law enforcement" can mean forgiving perjury, abuse, brutality, racial profiling, no-knock raids, etc. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4757 Registered: 10-2003 |
You think unwarranted cop-worship in this country is a bigger factor than unwarranted cop-hatred? I call BS on that one. If anything, they may be close, but the worship certainly isn't outpacing the hate. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4758 Registered: 10-2003 |
Also, haven't had much trouble with having my doors kicked in by mask wearing cops and getting tasered and pepper sprayed. How many here have had this problem? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1817 Registered: 07-2004 |
Sorry, John. I'm old-school: An injury to one is an injury to all. | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 149 Registered: 12-2007 |
Just like supporting the troops. I support the troops just fine with my taxes, I don't need to support the mindless and unprovoked actions that our government has placed them in. I support the officers of the law, but I don't see why a cop killer is any worse than a regular killer. The cop went into the profession knowing the risks involved, so when a Cop dies in the line of duty, as tragic as it is, thats no different than me dying on the job. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4759 Registered: 10-2003 |
DN: I'm sorry if that happened to someone you know. Not making light of it. There are bad people in all professions. I'm just stressing that the current state of distrust doesn't help the public. People complain about the police service they get in Detroit, but then do everything possible to NOT cooperate with them. We can put that on the Detroit catch-22 thread. | ||
Brian_fitzcarraldo Member Username: Brian_fitzcarraldo Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2007 |
Johnlodge, good point. It's ridiculous for Sowell to present his experiences as typical of black drivers, though -- he probably drives a late-model Saab and plays Harold Bloom lectures on his car stereo, so yeah, he's going to be treated well. My hunch, from personal experience, is that police divide people into Upstanding Citizens and Troublemakers, and it's based on social class signals and attitude (degree of obsequiousness) as much as race. I used to have a real attitude and drive a beater in high school, and I'd get all kinds of unnecessary tickets for being an existential, possibly ethnic Joy Division-listening malcontent. I still have a questionable car, but I think the cops now see me as your standard post-college Grosse Pointe dawdler. Apparently those are given a pass. Of course, racial attitudes and stereotypes can color many cops' perceptions, resulting in effectively racist policing. (Which is one reason I think police should generally treat everyone with a civil attitude unless they're actually threatening. In general, I'd like to see police focus on keeping the peace, not racking up arrests and tickets.) At the same time, the black perception of police racism can also give people an unpleasant attitude toward officers -- often warranted -- that could prove a self-fulfilling prophecy. So yeah, I'd say it's complicated. Still, don't let anyone tell you Grosse Pointe cops don't at least keep an *extra* close eye on black people. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 301 Registered: 02-2007 |
I'll bet all of you would call a cop before anyone else in time of need. Some of you would rather handcuff the cops rather than the lawbreakers. Unlike D_mcc, I believe most people who go into law enforcement, do so because of their dedication and their caring for public safety. You could say the same about all those young men and women in Iraq, couldn't you? They all joined up, knowing what could happen. Times have changed, that's for sure. I grew up respecting the law, nowadays, there is no respect for anything. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1818 Registered: 07-2004 |
The state of distrust exists for good reason. They're supposed to be public servants, accountable to the people. They often aren't. They're often shielded from prosecution, lightly reprimanded when they kill the wrong people, and don't get in trouble when they arrest people who aren't breaking the law. So, let's say any other sort of worker were not doing his job, were breaking the rules, or were outright doing stuff that hurt or killed innocent people. They'd be fired, right? They'd be fired and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But when it comes to police, well, things work differently. They have SUCH a hard job. They're expected to do TOO MUCH. They're victims of UNFAIR PERCEPTIONS. Without PUBLIC RESPECT, there's not much they can accomplish. It's more of the same old story: Public officials and institutions want the trust of the people, but they just don't want to earn it. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1819 Registered: 07-2004 |
Buyamerican: Thanks for the comic relief. That one line sounds like an editorial from 1914 against "shackling the constabulary." | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3274 Registered: 06-2006 |
"The state of distrust exists for good reason." Anyone with this attitude deserves to live in a place where random killings happen every week... | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4760 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well DN, I think you are right about when the cops actually knew the people they were policing. It makes me wonder if the cops that are now "walking the beat" in certain Detroit neighborhoods are changing perceptions, or even changing themselves, in a way. But I still think you are focusing on the minority, at the expense of the majority. | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 150 Registered: 12-2007 |
Did I ever say cops are not dedicated to their community? No sir, I did not, I simply said, there are risks in the profession that one must accept. No one forces you to wear a badge, you choose it, so you accept the risks associated with it... Way to twist someones words around...I half expected a..."If you don't like the troops...you must hate america..." | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 594 Registered: 08-2007 |
so what does jack webb have to add? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =9D4BG-hvzFI | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1820 Registered: 07-2004 |
Well, in the old days, I think you had police working with local families and businesses, developing relationship and knowing the people. And, also, they were known as people themselves. They'd be more likely to be called "Sam the cop" than some puffed-up contemporary title like "first responder". They didn't have SWAT teams, pepper spray, electric rifles, tanks, helicopters etc. They weren't militarized. They were human beings doing work among people. And they had to do it well to earn the trust and cooperation needed. Today? Well, when I look at police I see it has been much more militarized, institutionalized, professionalized. They don't walk down the street. They drive through in their scout cars. They don't know you or your neighbors. When they need to find you, they'll shine a light on your house number. They don't need to know you. They have a computer in their car; they get your ID, punch in your numbers, and know all about you. And, instead of having this personal relationship with you, they can rely on force and impunity to smooth the way for them. Don't like it? They have the helicopters, the tanks, the guns, the tear gas bombs, the bullet-proof vests, the attack dogs, the snipers, the SWAT teams, the TASER guns, no-knock warrants. If they ever do anything wrong with all that firepower, and you want to take your complaints to them, what will happen? You'll run into their buddies: The sympathetic judges, ambitious prosecutors, and a largely fawning, cop-worshiping media. And you know what? These things do not make the police one bit better, in the same way that power does not make a person more just, and impunity does not make a person more fair. They actually make police into something more akin to an occupying army than a force to protect public order. And that's where I think the problem is: In these institutional tendencies. That means I'm not crabbing about "bad apples" or "a few bad cops." I'm complaining about a system that's liable to produce bad policing, and bad police. It's difficult to explain that whole "it's the system" complaint to somebody used to thinking of the problem being limited to a few bad individuals. But I'll give it a shot. Ever hear of the Stanford study that picked college students at random to become "guards" or "prisoners"? The 1971 study was supposed to last two weeks, but was halted after six days. Why? Philip Zimbardo said: "What we saw was frightening. It was no longer apparent to most of the subjects (or to us) where reality ended and their roles began. The majority had indeed become prisoners or guards, no longer able to clearly differentiate between role playing and self. . . . In less than a week the experience of imprisonment undid (temporarily) a lifetime of learning; human values were suspended, self-concepts were challenged and the ugliest . . . side of human nature surfaced. We were horrified because we saw some guards treat others as if they were despicable animals, taking pleasure in cruelty, while the prisoners became . . . dehumanized robots who thought only of escape, of their own individual survival and of their mounting hatred for the guards." This little-discussed study implies some disturbing things about society; that, more than we're willing to admit, it is the system, not the individual, that produces our brutal behavior. That it isn't "a few bad cops" or a handful of "supercriminals" but a whole system that makes them and reinforces their behavior that is the problem. And we'll never tackle the problem so long as we think it's limited to "bad apples" or "bathwater". But, that said, thanks for being cordial with Mr. Opinionated over here. | ||
Brian_fitzcarraldo Member Username: Brian_fitzcarraldo Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2007 |
Detroitnerd, great post. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2570 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: I don't expect this to go over easy with this crowd, which is why I'll refrain from getting involved in this discussion... but you really hit the nail on the head with that one. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4761 Registered: 10-2003 |
A well worded opinion, DN. I did have one criminology course in college, with a clearly liberal teacher, and I can say this isn't the first time I've heard what you are saying. I'd love to see a system where the police knew the people they were policing. How much faster would they respond to an emergency in a neighborhood where they know some people? People they chat with now and then, know things about. That's why I like this new experiment in Detroit with cops walking the beat again. I'd love to see that program expanded on. We all know how cars dehumanize people. You see people on the streets treating each other in ways they would NEVER treat each other outside of their vehicles! I was joking with my fiance just the other day about it. I'd just cut right in front of her while she was walking and say "I NEED TO BE HERE NOW." Then I'd walk right behind her to the point where it was clearly obnoxious while "honking" and giving the finger. LOL That's what people do on the roads! They don't do it in the bank line! |
