  Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 729 Registered: 11-2005 |
Since the governor was so high strung on making michigan a green state maybe she should focus her effort more towards these objectives it would benefit us all more in the long run... http://www.worldchanging.com/a rchives/007800.html I know it is quite the lengthy article. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fmstack Member Username: Fmstack Post Number: 32 Registered: 06-2007 |
Thanks very much for the link, urbanoutdoors. I'm only about halfway through it, but what's there so far is pretty exciting. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fmstack Member Username: Fmstack Post Number: 33 Registered: 06-2007 |
This is from a comment way down on that page. Can anyone better at math than me explain how/if this line of reasoning works? quote: 4. Consider this fun fact: "You save more fuel switching from a 13 to 17 mpg car than switching from a 50 to 500 mpg car." This is my big huge obsession these days. The point here is that MPG is a TERRIBLE HORRIBLE GOOD FER NOTHING GAWDAWFUL measurement. It doesn't mean what we think it does. The correct measure is Canadian style: gallons per mile (or liters per kilometer). Among other things, MPG leads us to obsess about super-efficient vehicles. But because of the counterintuitive reciprocal involved in MPG, all of the real fuel saving are at the low end. There's a vanishingly small difference between a Prius and that magic new Tesla. (Over 1000 miles, the Tesla would save less than 13 gallons of fuel. That's not nothing, but the difference between a Durango and Tacoma is more than twice as big -- and they're both incredibly crappy.) Where I'm going is that we get all of our ginormous efficiencies at the low end. So we shouldn't worry so much about tomorrow's inventions; but we should worry a lot about today's laws, policies, and incentives. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 730 Registered: 11-2005 |
I wonder if something like this could catch on in Detroit and if so it would help in promoting new greenways and new bike paths all around the city as an alternative form of transit. Maybe coupling with back alley or something. "Car-sharing is the best-known and perhaps most illustrative example, but it's far from the only one. Take, for instance, Barcelona's phenomenally successful Bicing program, made feasible by cheap technology: Once you register with the company (you have to be a resident of Barcelona, and it costs 24 euros) and activate your swipe card, you can use any one of Bicing's 1,500 bikes, which are designed to prevent people from stealing parts, and to be recognizable. The first 30 minutes of every trip are free, and you can return your bike to any Bicing location around the city (there are at least 100)--one key improvement on car-sharing services, which typically require a user to return the car to the location where he or she picked it up. Every half-hour over the initial free half-hour costs 30 eurocents, making Bicing the cheapest public transport system in Barcelona. You can keep any one bike for up to two hours, and you can always return a bike, run your errand, and grab another for no charge. The bikes seem to be very well-maintained, and everyone uses them—old people, little kids, teenagers on cell phones--everyone." | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1838 Registered: 07-2004 |
Building greener cars is not "the" answer for Detroit. * About 50 percent of the pollution produced by cars is in their production and disposal. * Cars are, in many ways, inimical to the density we claim we want to see in our city center. "When planners create a site plan, a typical ratio used is four parking spaces per every 1,000 square feet of office, five parking spaces for every 1,000 square feet of retail, and ten parking spaces for every 1,000 square feet of restaurant. When the square footage of the parking lot aisle and space are summed, the average square footage needed to park a car is 225 square feet. The result, the amount of space needed to park an automobile, is the same or more as the space in the destination!" * Even the greenest cars require more resources, more concrete, more space than any other form of transportation except flight. * Having cars use less resources doesn't address runoff, induced demand, car-centered architecture, car-centered zoning regulations, crashes, drunk driving, anomie, etc. I think you guys have part of it right, trying to dream up answers. On the other hand, if you think green cars are the answer, you guys are dreaming! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fmstack Member Username: Fmstack Post Number: 35 Registered: 06-2007 |
Although I love the idea of bike-share programs, I don't think that enough of the metro area has a bike culture, bike-friendly urban layout, or (most importantly) the social capital for that sort of thing to happen here. Maybe something could get off the ground in a few of the better-designed, more progressive suburbs (Ferndale? Royal Oak?) but as a metro-wide solution to anything, right now? ... nah. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 400 Registered: 06-2005 |
quote: Maybe it's best to make this into a story problem.  You have four cars that get 500, 50, 17, and 13 MPGs respectively. You drive 500 miles. Your gas usage is 1, 10, 29.4 and 38.5 gallons respectively. The difference in gas savings between the highest MPG cars is slightly less than the savings between lowest two. Then again, his gallons per mile ratio carries its own amount of B.S. A more relevant measure might be the annual fuel usage (or cost) per year per person. A Ford Excursion carrying 6 passengers is more efficient than single driver in a Prius. A guy owning big Hummer but only driving 1,000 miles a year burns less gas than a Prius driven 12K annually. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2693 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: It works like this. Look at how much gas is consumed in a typical year of driving (15,000 miles). Subtract one from the other to see the gas saved. The gas saved by going from 13 to 17 MPG is slightly more than that saved by going from 50 to 500 MPG. For a real world example, look at the savings going from a Corolla at 29 combined MPG to a Prius at 46 MPG. Compare that to the gas saved by driving a Yukon Hybrid (21 MPG) instead of a regular Yukon (16 MPG). More gas is saved by the Yukon switch than by the Corolla-to-Prius switch.
But doesn't the Yukon Hybrid still use a lot more gas than the Prius, you say? Of course, but the Prius isn't really an alternative for many Yukon owners who need large passenger capacity and heavy towing ability. Mileage gains in high-volume, low-mileage vehicles like full-size SUVs and pickups make the greatest difference in fuel savings. Taking that a step further, GM's hybrid buses save many, many times more fuel in a year than a Prius or similar compact hybrid since the buses rack up so many miles each year. But the Priuses get the hype. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fmstack Member Username: Fmstack Post Number: 36 Registered: 06-2007 |
Aah! I get it! Thank you very much! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 736 Registered: 11-2005 |
Here is how the bicing program works I think it could work in Detroit. I believe there could be businesses in the city that could really incorporate this at least into midtown and downtown. It would definitely take buy in from the city in order to make decent bike paths. I can think of at least 20 businesses at least that could do this in cbd midtown. http://www.barcelona-on-line.e s/noticies/noticia.asp?idIdiom a=2&idPublicacio=1976 |
