Discuss Detroit » Archives - January 2008 » Our Berlin Wall Grows Taller - Tear it Down « Previous Next »
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 4505
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The slow strangulation of our border cities and their economies took a big step downward today.

New insecurity rules that started at midnight that require U.S. and Canadian citizens to show either a passport or a drivers license plus a birth certificate when they enter the U.S.

Oral declaration of citizenship is no longer accepted proof.

This is a disgrace and a huge waste that must be addressed and ended asap.

Please contact your federal elected members of congress and parliament to demand a treaty to open our border to the level of the European Union's.

It is ridiculous that citizens of France and Germany who murdered millions each other citizens in the last century can freely cross the Rhine as if passing from one county to another and, meanwhile, Canadian and Americans, who have been at peace for almost 200 years and have fought and died together in many wars cannot.

An open border would be the biggest economic lift to our economically devastated international border cities, first by saving hundreds of millions of waste in stops and inspections along with the discouragement of commerce that creates and secondly by the the economic opportunities that could arise.

This would be the the quickest and biggest economic recovery plan for our cities. It would cost nothing while saving immense amounts.

Both countries would also save hundreds of millions of dollars which could be applied to the far more vulnerable exterior water border and international airports.

Americans and Canadians, unite in opening our border. It can be done while retaining our separate national sovereignties yet benefitting all of us.
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Leoqueen
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Username: Leoqueen

Post Number: 1809
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windsor's restaurants will surely take a big hit from this one..who has a passport handy or the extra ducats to get one if you dont have travel plans? And who can find their birth certificate easily? I agree with you, Lowell; this is a disgrace.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 6527
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leoqueen, that's an interesting observation. How come US birth certificates are such a large cumbersome document? In Canada our birth certificates are small wallet sized cards, the size of a credit card. If you came to Windsor right now, and randomly stopped 20 people on the street I bet you that at least 15 of them would have their birth certificate on their person.

Living in a border city this is a crucial piece of ID, and it always amazes me to run into people who don't have it handy. I had no idea that until today a "verbal declaration" of citizenship was even acceptable. At least from my point of view nothing today is any different than it was yesterday.

I would like to see anyone who's been able to enter the US from Canada since 9/11 by simply giving an oral declaration, without any documents. That is the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

While the rest of the world moves forward, the US moves backwards. The US Border is the only one I've encountered on my travels where you are made to feel like a criminal, every time and without reason.

In fact most foreign visitor need to be photographed and fingerprinted upon arrival to the US. Even passengers that only pass through, subject travelers to this. A perfect example are flights to Europe from Australia/New Zealand.

Most of these flights used to land in LA to change aircraft before heading on to Europe. DHS was requiring passengers who were only in transit bound for Europe to submit to the fingerprinting/photographing fiasco. This is a huge waste of resources to spend on a passenger who isn't staying in the US for more than a few hours, and who won't be leaving the departure lounge.

Air New Zealand, now transfers in Vancouver, and Air Canada now offers direct flights from Vancouver to Sydney, by-passing the traditional layover in Hawaii.

Air New Zealand has touted that their new routing: "will enable global travelers to avoid the United States"

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/ smith/2007/08/10/askthepilot24 0/index.html?source=search&aim =/tech/col/smith

So however bad it is locally, it's even worse globally. It seems that the only one who understands is Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy.
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Jrvass
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Username: Jrvass

Post Number: 423
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My passport from '85 expired in '95. Can I still use it?
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1069
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aiw, I have entered Canada and re-entered the US from Canada hundreds of times since 2001, showing only a drivers license, which has always been a requirement, and giving an oral declaration of citizenship. My birth certificate is the size of a certificate - roughly 9 x 12, on yellowed, brittle paper, which I keep in a safe. Every birth certificate I have ever seen is similar to mine. Absolutely nobody carries it around and I suspect most people would not know where to find it.

Lowell's point is that, while the European nations are making it easier for people to travel (which is good for the travel portion of the economy), we are making it slightly more of a pain in the ass, which is absolutely unnecessary and bad for the travel portion of the economy.

Jrvass, an expired passport is a piece of paper; it has no validity whatsoever.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 11455
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll carry photocopies of all that stuff...

One mugging, and you're back to square one.


It'll be one of those unintended consequences things...thugs will start hitting up innocent folk because they KNOW they're packing all of their original documents.

Talk about your identity fraud...
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 1654
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I had no idea that until today a "verbal declaration" of citizenship was even acceptable. At least from my point of view nothing today is any different than it was yesterday.

I would like to see anyone who's been able to enter the US from Canada since 9/11 by simply giving an oral declaration, without any documents. That is the funniest thing I've read in a long time.


Ditto. Before I moved to Chicago, I had a copy of my birth certificate (not the only copy, OBVIOUSLY) in my glove box, in case I found myself going to Canada unexpectedly. I had no idea this was not required until now.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 3744
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why can't there be a wallet-size North American Travel Card that allows easy access back and forth from the U.S. to Canada? Apply for it (make the price reasonable, or better yet, free), go through a background check, get clearance, etc.... then, it becomes the only document you need. Flash it to the customs officers and breeze through in five minutes...
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Carm
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Username: Carm

Post Number: 69
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last summer I took my kids to Niagra Falls thru Sarnia. We go every year. I had my kids birth certificates with a letter from my husband saying he knew I was going to Canada with them. I handed over the birth certificates along with my drivers license. I was asked if I had my birth certificate. I said no, it was at home and I didn't know I needed it. I had never been asked for it before. I was told that since the US required it, Canada required it. However I was let in, but was told I might have a problem coming back into the U.S. I called my husband, and he called the boarder patrol. They told him I would be fine. I let him know when I got to Windsor in case he had to bring my birth certificate to me. When I got to the border I was never asked for anything other than my drivers license. It all depends on who you get. Some agents are nice, and some are jerks. But it seems to me our problems aren't with the Canadians.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2115
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The US has those Birth Certificates but for some reason people like to keep and use the un-official hospital documents as their birth certificates.
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 6528
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks. We have the big certificates too. They're called "A certificate of live birth" or a long form birth certificate. I've only ever need that document once, when applying for my UK passport, as it showed by father's birthplace. However probably 80% of Canadians don't have that version we have the wallet size card, or the short form.


Fury - why would we have that? A document of that type would require forethought and vision. When I was in the customs line in Germany, I noticed that many of the Germans were carrying a small id card. It looked similar to the photopage of a passport, only laminated. Turns out it was a national ID card, it seemed to work pretty well as a secure document. Same information as a passport only without all the superfulous pages that aren't needed for regional movement.





And as Carm stated above:
quote:

It all depends on who you get. Some agents are nice, and some are jerks.

, this applies to both sides of the border as well. The biggest problem, is that there seems to be no across the board standard inspection procedure.

If every agent asked the same questions, the entry process could be simplified and speeded up. Any problems or doubt, send the car and occupants to secondary. A 5 minute primary inspection is dumb.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1070
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fury asked:

"Why can't there be a wallet-size North American Travel Card..."

Teri Lynn Land and other people with similar positions in other border states have been trying to get the US government to accept an "enhanced driver license" which would include citizenship info. No luck so far. Write your congressperson.

The Bush admin is only interested in making it look like something is being done to enhance security. But that would be difficult and require thought, and these jokers aren't capable of that, so what they do instead is come up with things that don't improve security at all and are pains in our asses.
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 247
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Both Romney and now McCain were hardening their anti-illegals stance at last night's debate. McCain, who was in favour of allowing certain illegals to remain just a year ago, now sees the writing on the wall. The only way to get the nomination is to appear tough on illegals and build the big wall as soon as elected. Unfortunately this stance filters down to common sense issues at the Canadian border as well.
Guess we'll all have to drive to Vermont or Quebec where we just move the yellow cone ourselves.
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Rampartstreetnorth
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Username: Rampartstreetnorth

Post Number: 77
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately, the U.S. is increasingly a nation living in fear. Long term, a wise policy would be to examine and if possible change the policies which cause so much of the rest of the world to be hostile to the United States.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 236
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Prior to today an oral declaration was acceptable in terms of the legislation--but many (most) officers on both sides have requested to see documentary proof. The change effective today actually removes the ambiguity a previous poster mentioned...effective today, everyone knows what to expect.
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 248
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Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One positive of Hillary winning the White House would be their idea of sending Bill around the world rebuilding global relations. If nothing else, he can certainly talk a good game and has an understanding what needs to be done to repair the damage Bush caused in Europe and the Middle East. It appears that if Obama wins the wounds may be too deep between him and the Clintons to allow for this.
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 3255
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"National ID Card"

That concept doesn't work here.

That pesky Fourth Amendment (or what's left of it).

And as for the WHTI requirement for a passport, I lay the blame on every elected official from Michigan.

If Levin, Stabenow, Miller, Knollenberg, Kilpatrick, Conyers, et al had any spine, they should have introduced legislation to de-fund the DHS/TSA.

You'll see a change in their "directive" real quick.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 6238
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a symbol of their displeasure with the federal US government... the Canadian's should wall up their part of the Peace Arch in Blaine Washington (located in a park on the USA/Canda border).
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Dhugger
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Username: Dhugger

Post Number: 398
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What about homeless or poor people. Low income individuals-can they afford a passport that costs in the range of $160 u.s.? How many homeless people have two forms of ID?

A homeless man was interviewed on WDET a few months back. He lost his job, kicked out of his apartment then his ID had been stolen. This prevented him from getting a job and numerous other forms of assistance. Now he is living on the streets.

Let's not forget the movement to build a huge wall on our southern border too.

Maybe that is the point. Get the poor and hungry masses to travel across the borders then don't let them back in the U.S.
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 401
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have an Oakland County-issued certificate of birth that measures about 3 inches by 4 inches. It's notarized and all. It's folded once and fits inside my passport.

Still, I would prefer a card I could stuff in my wallet.
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Tiorted
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Username: Tiorted

Post Number: 116
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Why can't there be a wallet-size North American Travel Card that allows easy access back and forth from the U.S. to Canada? Apply for it (make the price reasonable, or better yet, free), go through a background check, get clearance, etc.... then, it becomes the only document you need. Flash it to the customs officers and breeze through in five minutes...



http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt_card/ppt_card_3926.html

The Department of State is issuing this passport card in response to the needs of border resident communities for a less expensive and more portable alternative to the traditional passport book. The card will have the same validity period as a passport book: 10 years for an adult, five for children 15 and younger. For adults who already have a passport book, they may apply for the card as a passport renewal and pay only $20. First-time applicants will pay $45 for adult cards and $35 for children.

To facilitate the frequent travel of U.S. citizens living in border communities and to meet DHS’s operational needs at land borders, the passport card will contain a vicinity-read radio frequency identification (RFID) chip. This chip will link the card to a stored record in secure government databases. There will be no personal information written to the RFID chip itself.


ppt_card_front.jpg


ppt_card_back.jpg


(Message edited by tiorted on January 31, 2008)
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 94
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"It is ridiculous that citizens of France and Germany who murdered millions each other citizens in the last century can freely cross the Rhine as if passing from one county to another and, meanwhile, Canadian and Americans, who have been at peace for almost 200 years and have fought and died together in many wars cannot."

This law isn't a result of being scared of Canada. This is a law in order to stop non-Canadians from slipping across. While it sucks for us to have to deal with this, it is pretty necessary when you think about how big the Canada-US border.
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Traxus
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Username: Traxus

Post Number: 119
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The Bush admin is only interested in making it look like something is being done to enhance security. But that would be difficult and require thought, and these jokers aren't capable of that, so what they do instead is come up with things that don't improve security at all and are pains in our asses."

Says it all right there. What is more irritating is that this legislature will be even harder if not impossible to undo. Any attempt to do so would be jumped on by hounds on the mid to far right.

"the passport card will contain a vicinity-read radio frequency identification (RFID) chip. This chip will link the card to a stored record in secure government databases. There will be no personal information written to the RFID chip itself. "

Right, I'm sure they didn't even CONSIDER that option.
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Ferntruth
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Username: Ferntruth

Post Number: 324
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"While it sucks for us to have to deal with this, it is pretty necessary when you think about how big the Canada-US border."

The border is big, and thats precisely why this is such a ridiculous idea. There are many many places along the US/Canadian border that are isolated and where one can cross undisturbed. Do we really think that the "evil doers" will enter the US by going through customs?
Why not just jump in a boat and sneak across Lake St. Clair? Or cross in North Dakota in the middle of nowhere?

This law is all for show and nothing more.
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Drankin21
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Username: Drankin21

Post Number: 160
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"It is ridiculous that citizens of France and Germany who murdered millions each other citizens in the last century can freely cross the Rhine as if passing from one county to another and, meanwhile, Canadian and Americans, who have been at peace for almost 200 years and have fought and died together in many wars cannot."

This is not a proper comparison at all due to the fact that the frontier nations (those on the border of the EU to the non-EU neighbors to the east) still have border controls and require passports. The border controls between France and Germany disappeared due to the fact that borders are secured in both nations. Either by requiring passport entry (from Switzerland, Czech Republic etc.) or by neighboring countries requiring passport entry (Italy, Austria, Spain etc.)
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5003
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Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Duh! Why would homeless people be crossing the border anyway? But, providing for that remote eventuality should definitely be made priority number 1.

(Message edited by livernoisyard on January 31, 2008)
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 311
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Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are all missing the bigger, shall I say biggest?, picture. Issuing a national ID card (like the creation of the EU itself), is just fulfilling another prophecy on the way to the endtimes! the National ID is the MARK OF THE BEAST. WE MUST oppose any form of National ID as it is the harbinger of Armageddon ! http://www.endtime.com/News.as px?category=The%20Mark
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 4697
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

but I've had a passport for twenty seven years, and a passport is a National Identity Card.. (with pages).
Of course, the year I got it a strange woman called my house and told me that the world was going to end...go figure.

Only dying societies build walls around themselves.
Here's to the day that we have a "Community of the Americas".
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Treelock
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Username: Treelock

Post Number: 266
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

B.C. thinkin' on their feet:

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash /index.ssf?/base/international -1/1200972243117170.xml&storyl ist=international
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Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936

Post Number: 2643
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Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny, the Mexican border is leaking like a busted hose, and we're securing the Canadian border. Oh, well.

An old lawyer's line states "bad cases make for bad law". So, 9-11, a bad case, is making for a whole bunch of bad laws.
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Ferntruth
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Username: Ferntruth

Post Number: 334
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Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said, Ray.
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Scs100
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Username: Scs100

Post Number: 1525
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While I do think that most of the requirements are kind of absurd, you do not need a birth certificate in addition to a passport. From the DHS/BP website:

quote:

Effective January 31, 2008, U.S. and Canadian citizens ages 19 and older should no longer expect that they will be able to prove identity and citizenship by relying on an oral declaration alone. Instead, travelers will be asked to present documents from one of the options below when entering the United States at land or sea ports of entry. Travelers who do not present one of the documents listed below may be delayed as U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers attempt to verify their identity and citizenship.

U.S. and Canadian Citizens – Single Document Option

One of the following documents should be presented to prove both identity and citizenship.

Acceptable Documents as of January 31:

* U.S. or Canadian Passport
* U.S. Passport Card (Available spring 2008)*
* Trusted Traveler Cards (NEXUS, SENTRI, or FAST)*
* State or Provincial Issued Enhanced Driver’s License (when available – this secure driver’s license will denote identity and citizenship.)*
* Enhanced Tribal Cards (when available)*
* U.S. Military Identification with Military Travel Orders
* U.S. Merchant Mariner Document
* Native American Tribal Photo Identification Card
* Form I-872 American Indian Card
* Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) Card

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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 1002
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

QUote: "Duh! Why would homeless people be crossing the border anyway?"

Umm So they can find a job and buy a home?
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 559
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 8:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think at least a photo I.D. for those over 16 and a birth certificate for those under 16 traveling with their parents should be provide while crossing the Canadian or Mexican borders.

This reminds me of everyone who was complaining about providing photo I.D. on election day.

The first time I voted I couldn't believe all I had to do was a my name. There was so much room for error and fraud I can't believe it took this long.

The same goes for crossing the border. Why wouldn't you cross the border with photo I.D?

Sure it is a hassle but I think it's worth it.

Yes, the Mexican border is a huge problem and Bush is a wimp for not addressing it but I think this is a good first step in securing out borders.

What if the next 9/11 happened and and guys who crossed in Windsor did it? How would all you bleeding hearts feel about it?

All the border guards would have to say is "they told us they were just at the casino for a few hours and they didn't have any weapons. all we could do was believe them."
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 585
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I'll carry photocopies of all that stuff..."

Pretty sure a photocopy isn't valid. Authentic birth certificates are embossed, copies aren't. I was lucky enough to get a wallet size birth certificate (original from 1960!) I wanted to keep it as a keepsake so I went to the county offices (Macomb) and got an official embossed copy for $3 or $4. However, it is full size.
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Dds
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Username: Dds

Post Number: 527
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Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The title of this thread is pretty ignorant if you ask me. To compare the US/Canada border even remotely to the Berlin Wall, even tongue in cheek, is ludicrous. Lives were lost, families destroyed and international relations set back decades because of the wall. To suggest that requiring a passport to cross our international border will eventually lead to those levels of persecution is preposterous.

I had a professor who broke down and wept openly because he would finally be able to go home (what was left of it) after almost 30 years of being an exile. The look of relief on his face after years of anguish will be something I will never forget.

Let's try to pick our analogies with some respect to history.
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Ferntruth
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Username: Ferntruth

Post Number: 347
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Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"What if the next 9/11 happened and and guys who crossed in Windsor did it? How would all you bleeding hearts feel about it?"

I imagine I would feel about the same as I would feel if we were attacked again and the "evil doers" snuck across the border in some isolated area out west. It's a BIG border and most of it is not secured.

I do happen to agree that oral declaration should not be sufficient. However, a valid DL should be.
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 6045
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Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At Jackman, Maine, where some bad people have crossed into the USA, before 9/11, our Govt. put out one orange cone at night with a sign that said, "Border closed, come back in the morning."

jjaba, end of discussion.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 242
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Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What does a DL prove (currently) Ferntruth? It proves residency, not citizenship.
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Wfw
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Username: Wfw

Post Number: 327
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Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 9:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Like AIW said earlier in the thread, I didn't know that a verbal declaration of citizenship was acceptable either. As long as I've been crossing border (about 30 years), a birth certificate has been a requirement. And yes, I'm Canadian and I keep it in my wallet at all times.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11749
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Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Absolutely nobody carries it around and I suspect most people would not know where to find it.



I've had a wallet size, same size as my drivers license, birth certificate since around 1998 and always carry it in my wallet. Used it to enter Mexico twice during college without any troubles. I'm sure they are still readily available. I laminated mine, though it's still showing it's age, the border patrol has never once given me a hassle over it.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 564
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fern

So your saying that since it's such a big border why try at all?

I agree that the Mexican border should be a higher priority but I think a piece of paper declaring your citizenship shouldn't be too much to ask of people wanting to cross over in to another country.

If you don't have a passport or birth certificate you should. Even if you don't plan on crossing a border anytime soon. It's cheap compared to the price not having it when you need it.
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Thoswolfe
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Username: Thoswolfe

Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eventually those wallet size birth certificates will be just souveneirs.
In order to even get a driver license (in another state that enacted Homeland Security/Iron Curtain measures earlier)I had to have a 'certified' copy.My old one was 'unacceptable'. Had to send a request to the State for a certified (full size) copy.
Same requirement is now in place for passports if a birth certificate is to be used to prove citizenship.
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 960
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Lowell, but I can’t trust those damn Canadians, and they shouldn’t trust us. I say we lock down air space, and outer space as well!
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 1198
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Passports will be common as they are in Europe.

They are easy to use and the kids will love the Canadian stamp that they get when they go to dinner in Windsor.

Secure borders are happy borders.
Legal immigrants are good immigrants.

Deal with it.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 248
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed Irish_mafia, except Canada and the U.S. have a long-standing policy of not stamping each others' passports. The transition period while we in North America catch up with the rest of world in terms of passports is going to be sticky--but in the end they will allow for freer, more secure and more rapid passage of legitimate travellers. Remember the relative ease of passage 10, 20, 30 years ago? The idea is to get back to that--and secure identification which can be read electronically is going to help get us there.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 249
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And before I forget, there are trusted traveller programs like NEXUS (or SENTRI on the southern border) which allow for freer passage in exchange for a background check. It's a fantastic program and at a cost of $50 for 5 years it is an unbelievable bargain. Allows passage with far fewer delays, and in turn reduces traffic in the regular inspection lanes.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 1201
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm with you on that Fastcar
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Hooha
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Username: Hooha

Post Number: 162
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"What if the next 9/11 happened and and guys who crossed in Windsor did it? How would all you bleeding hearts feel about it?"

Let's see here... The hijackers all entered through customs with passports that checked out and had student or tourist visas. So even with the brilliant idea of requiring a passport at the US/Canadian border, the 9/11 hijackers still could've entered from Windsor.

So to answer your question, I'd feel the same as I do about whatever supposedly secure checkpoint they actually entered through.
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Htpscott82
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Username: Htpscott82

Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Went to Niagra Falls this past August. We went through Sarnia. Myself and the others in my car were not asked to show ID on our way into Canada AND on our way into the US. So I guess it depends who you get and what kind of day they're having.

As for the wallet size birth certificate, I've had one since I was born. Warren apparently gives them out. (or gave them out)
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 565
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 9:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So lets just take everybodys word for everything.

citizenship?
U.S.
ok.

Mr. Mayor did you sleep with that woman?
No.
ok.

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