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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 4421
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 09, 2008 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mwilbert, I've been all over those places up there. I don't think there's too much of a comparison to a city as large as Detroit. As undiversified as Detroit's economy is, it is much more balanced than those old mining towns were.
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Mudmarker
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Username: Mudmarker

Post Number: 34
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 09, 2008 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Furniture!
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Dannyv
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Username: Dannyv

Post Number: 91
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, February 09, 2008 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Despair, vast swathes of urban landscape that's returned to nature. A population that struggles to stay above the poverty line, dependent on government assistance or commerce in the ever-growing illegal drug trade and it's ancillary businesses e.g., prostitution, gaming. O wait, that was the future I predicted 40 years ago for the Detroit of today. Who would have thought it? And we haven't touched bottom until there is a reversal in the declining population of Detroit. There is no future here. Those who are able to escape, via an education, are loathe to return. I know that's not the answer you're looking for but that's the best I can give you. Things will continue on their spiraling descent because there are those who feel their birthright now is to dominate and control the political landscape and would rather captain a sinking ship than throw out a lifeline for a hopeful future.
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Eastsiderules
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Username: Eastsiderules

Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 3:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit: the texting capital of the world!
thank you Kwame
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Histeric
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Username: Histeric

Post Number: 842
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 4:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, there should be no doubt in anyones mind at this point that we are still preeminent in manufacturing TOOLS. And we ship them all over the country.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 1071
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^And world. Which is increasing due to the shrinking dollar relative to foreign currencies.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2301
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cities of the future will be much more based in service industries, or at least US cities can no longer supply what can be done overseas for a cheaper price. E.G.--that is why the textile industry is gone. Many cities have found their niche in some market. Wether Detroit wants to or not, it will be forced to find something in which it can be the most profitable--that being something that it can do better than any one else in the world can.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 213
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit was at a nexus of trends at many points in its history: the fur trade and lumber morphed into shipping routes to get iron, copper, and lumber into the area, which morphed into a carriage industry and mills for steel, which brought machine shops and skilled tradesmen, which morphed with the carriage industry into the early auto industry, which brought more engineers who developed other manufacturing industries, which required new financial institutions (when the depression hit, industry started their own banks instead relying on outside financing), which helped build the defense industries that supplied the Allies in WWII, which put an infrastructure in place to build the biggest industrial region in the world. These things also brought hundreds of thousands of less-educated workers, who were drawn to probably the only place in the world where they could earn a middle-class wage in a low-skill job. Their children ARE educated. As those low-skill jobs leave for even cheaper places with even less-educated workers, we are morphing into something else. We have an incredible wealth of talent and knowledge here, and we will morph into something new. We have 50,000 engineers in this region (that's after counting the huge outflow of college graduates from Michigan), and some of the best schools and universities in the world. There will be lots of pain, and I hope we can handle that part of it, but there will also be incredible opportunity.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5105
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

These things also brought hundreds of thousands of less-educated workers, who were drawn to probably the only place in the world where they could earn a middle-class wage in a low-skill job. Their children ARE educated. As those low-skill jobs leave for even cheaper places with even less-educated workers, we are morphing into something else.

Any such morphing (an euphemism for dumbing down) started at least as far back as 1970--possibly around the early to the middle 1960s already. Michigan is not highly ranked among the states for college degrees. Currently, Michigan now ranks 39th in per-capita college degrees and was 36th around the year 2000.

Metro Detroit fares even far worse. Back in 2000, metro Detroit ranked 22nd of the 24 largest US metropolitan areas. Therefore, the bulk of the kids of Detroiters or Michiganians are not highly educated. And the job situation of the past decade or more practically dictates that the best of those who are educated must leave the state.

Also, the trade and vocational education of the previous decades has virtually disappeared. The bulk of today's VTAE--vocational, technical, and adult education--schools are now essentially low-grade, six-month high-school makeup to two-year junior colleges for those with GEDs and such who have trouble being accepted into major or middle-level colleges, although some good VTAE schools are still around.

Even highly (self)rated Cass graduates have rather pedestrian, mediocre average ACT and SAT scores--nothing to brag about among people who know what a good ACT or SAT score is. Renaissance isn't much better in that regard, either. Yet, some misguided types brag them up! Why? Beats me... Perhaps, their (and essentially the rest of Michigan's) students are intellectually lazy and don't put in any significant academic effort anymore.
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Jb3
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Username: Jb3

Post Number: 261
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't posted in months, so this may be a bit extraneous, as i may not post for many more months, but...
Detroit's fate is not an isolated incident, nor will it's continued decline go without marked observation and careful scrutiny. Our little city here basically defined the 'american dream'. We were the first to market it, implement it and, of course, watch it slip away. The only chance we have of reestablishing ourselves is to garner national attention. So far, we are doing a meager job, but we are gaining attention from top planners and developers as something to think about as the U.S. struggles to define what a 21st century city should be.
It is not fair to abandon our automotive heritage, but it is fair to be extremely critical of the direction they are heading.
The question we should be asking is not what the next economy will be, but how do we build on our current knowledge base and resources.
What are the two most important things in creating the physical form of cities conducive to a thriving economy? The ability to transport people and the ability to provide habitat.
Detroit leads the world in understanding both of those two aspects. Some may argue for Roman history in France and Italy, but speaking strictly of an american development, we have the historic reference readily available, and we know how to engineer systems of transportation.
If an exportable, sellable product is what detroit needs, then it needs to put it's money into construction and transportation design. In the 21st century, these two marketable commodities are tied to the hip. Why do we continue to beat a dead horse? Automobiles need to evolve, and they need to evolve within the context of our built environment.
The third critical aspect of a new Detroit economy will have to be immigration. We need a workforce to buy new dwelling units (notice i did not say house). Detroit needs to make itself accessible to immigrants while focusing on education and job training.
All of these things sound like public expenditures, but they are marketable to cities across the world. If we concentrate on evolving into a sustainable city that is self-sufficient, we will once again be the manufacturing base of the world. Not only in processed goods, but information as well.
Some people get excited that we will attract outside investment from China or whatnot, dear god, look at what they are doing to their poor country, not to mention they are the #1 cause of animal extinction on the planet (and not just because of their disgusting appetite and antiquated medicinal practices...Boycott the Olympics!
Not as long as i thought...

To boil it down, Detroit needs to focus on providing for itself first and then look to marketing it, packaging it and then selling it as a consumable. We've been down that road and were still looking for the next 'pet rock' to sell to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

Cheers People! That's my two cents!
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 215
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michigan creates tons of college-degree-holding citizens. It is just that they don't STAY here. I stand by the numbers in my last post. In 2000, the public and private colleges and universities in Michigan granted over 85,000 degrees, including associate's and advanced degrees. That year there were only four states that produced more bachelor's degrees from their public colleges and universities. I use the year 2000 because data is easily available online for that year-- probably because it was a census year.

As for vocational education-- I'm all for it. But, that being said, we have to remember that TRAINING is not the same as EDUCATION. Today's average 18-year-old can expect to have six careers in his or her working lifetime-- that is not six jobs, but positions in six different economic sectors. Students need to learn to be flexible, entrepreneurial, and must learn how to learn and how to adapt quickly. That is what college is all about. The more citizens we keep who can do that, the more economic diversity we'll have.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 216
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jb3--
Good comments. I like your use of "evolve." I should have thought of that term instead of "morph." Your word is more to my meaning.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5106
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 5:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The percentage of US citizens amounts to a minority, typically, at most US polytechnical colleges (engineering colleges, etc.). The US typically confers only about 75,000 BS degrees annually in engineering. Of that number, roughly 32,000 are Americans. So, four out of every seven engineering graduates at US engineering colleges are foreigners. And that statistic has been in place for three decades.

Even the majority of the teaching faculties at US engineering (and other technical areas) colleges are (or were) also foreigners. That statistic too isn't new. BTW, China graduates over 600,000 engineers annually, and India graduates almost as many as China does. To repeat: the US only graduates 32,000 American engineers a year, while just two Asian countries graduate well over a million engineers per year. There are several other countries that graduate more engineers than does the US.

It's foolish to state that our colleges are doing that much on a global scale. The better the school--MIT, Harvard, UW-Madison, U of Chicago, UoM, etc.--the higher the percentage of foreign students, especially among the grad students. Many Asian high school graduates are four to six years ahead of Americans at age 18, BTW. And many of them are studying and teaching at US colleges.

I occasionally copyedit or technically edit PhD dissertations for Korean doctoral candidates--finished one yesterday--mostly at the University of Texas in Austin. For some unknown reason, they "got my number."


(Message edited by LivernoisYard on February 10, 2008)
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 217
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LY--
This is said sincerely: it sounds like you are running a creative class, flat-world consulting business. We need more like you.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 3456
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the contrary I had very few Asians as teachers in grad school at UMich, but as students they made up the majority of many of my classes. The vast majority of my non-American teachers were European. The Chinese (and some others) are in school on their government's dime and have to go home to work after graduation. We are essentially passing all of our knowledge and experience to them.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5107
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The University of Wisconsin-Madison has so many Asian students and profs there that the Asians outnumber the blacks about three to one in the city of Madison (some 250,000 population, while not counting any of them in the burbs).
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 1127
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2008 - 1:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

nice posts people...
"There is lots of empty space in North Dakota, - nice statement" wow.

"If you haven't ever visited Calumet, I recommend it--it is closer than Timbuktu" - brilliant.

"With 46% of Detroit residents illiterate and unqualified for any kind of professional work, call it negativity, but the future don't look too good." - more brilliance.


So many grammatically brilliant posts here.
What everyone is espousing here is that our education system is totally screwed up with lack of accountability to students.

And yet we continue to elect politicians that get paid off by foreign corporations to let others take our country over.
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Chuckles
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Username: Chuckles

Post Number: 160
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2008 - 6:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To answer the OP topic....

think "Escape from New York"

Snake Plesskin (Kurt Russell) & crew...
Donald Pleasance...Earnest Borgnine...Adrian Barbeau...Duke of New York (Issac Hayes)...Billy Idol... Lee Van Cleef...Harry Dean Stanton...many others

Greatest Urban cult movie ever...IMO

(Message edited by chuckles on February 11, 2008)
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Chuckles
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Username: Chuckles

Post Number: 161
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2008 - 6:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lefty...our educational system IS totally screwed up and its not the students fault It is the fault of the Teachers #1 and the Parents #2 and its not just Detroit its America!
regards

(Message edited by chuckles on February 11, 2008)
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 1457
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2008 - 8:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You couldn't be more wrong - it is the fault of the registered voters and the parents of the students.

It's the fault of voters who elect incompetent school board members, who then hire and/or tolerate incompetent administrators.

It's equally the fault of those parents who turn over the entire role of teaching their children to the schools and who won't even communicate their expectations to their child and follow up to see that they do their homework, get good grades and show some respect for their teachers and fellow classmates.
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Chuckles
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Username: Chuckles

Post Number: 166
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2008 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Teacher accreditation is at an all time low...many teachers are not academically as intelligent as their students 8-12 and beyond •••• but.....they do have the MEA and therein lies the fault of illiterate/dysfunctional teachers...

The system needs a complete overhaul with oversight and accountability as its number 1 priority not wages and benefits.

regards
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 10104
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2008 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chuckles believes that a good sermon or two would change the school system right Chuckles?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 3462
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Monday, February 11, 2008 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There used to be a time when Americans were more attuned to problem solving instead of blame laying.

jes sayin
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2543
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 12, 2008 - 2:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit needs to shrink itself geographically to be more efficient. How to do it is the big problem? I would suggest that the city tell people living in very sparsely populated areas of the city that they have so many years to move before all city services stop. If they want to go it alone, fine, but the city won't provide police, fire, lighting, and garbage pick up after a certain date. The city would encourage people to move to new housing closer to the center of the city and downtown. Packing everybody in the Grand Boulevard belt, give or take a few miles, might be a way to save this city.

Also, Detroit needs new blood. The Chinese who live in a humid-continental climate(short humid summers but long cold winters), would be the ideal people to attract to Detroit. With pollution and human rights problems in China, a fresh start in an American city, might be just what the doctor ordered. Why can't that city be Detroit?

Personally, beyond auto manufacturing, I don't see how much more diversified Detroit, as well as Michigan, can really get. Casinos jobs will only cover so many people. We're not a tourists mecca, so we cant't bank on tourism. However, if there is an area to diversify in or expand in, I would say it would be international transportation, through trucking and shipping along the Great Lakes. Also, all of this talk about Michigan becoming a hub for alternative energies sounds great, but it will take billions of investment dollars just to get started. Who's going to provide that kind of money? Maybe,the government can, as a response to its turning its back on the auto industry( not helping with increasing health car costs that car companies are forced to pay for).

BTW, blame-laying has been in vogue in the U.S. for a number of decades now. Making an effort takes hard work, and Americans are too comfortable being comfortable to want to do that.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 1008
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Posted on Tuesday, February 12, 2008 - 4:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit is a sick city. The only question is whether it is, based on a historical perspective, terminal. If Detroit were a person it would suffer from the following diseases, among others: a dysfunctional school system; very high taxes and inadequate city services; a bloated beurocrocy; a dearth of highly qualified potential city leaders and an electorate which does not have the ability to distinguish between the corrupt charlatans who they choose to govern them from those who may be capable of (and willing) to attempt to govern the city properly, given the power to do so (Penske, Barden et al.); urban blight unmatched by no other major metropolitan area in the country.

Urban blight is the cancer and were Detroit a person, immediate steps would be taken to remove it if the patient is to survive.

Detroit, the State and Federal governments should unite to remove every vacant, abandoned building in the City. That includes 50 or 60 office and other buildings in the CBD. (Abandon all hope of salvaging more than half a dozen if that many, and shoot every "preservationist" who, without 2 dimes of their own money, attempt to "save" them.) The City would be left with 1000s of acres of cleared land, most of which would be served by a semblance of infrastructure such as streets, sewer, water and utilities.

I like Royce's idea of then consolidating the few remaining residences and businesses into a much smaller geographical area.

Only then will Detroiters and the world see the area for what it is. They'll see much potential. Developers love fully developed vacant land, whether to start anew with factories which wold re-industrialize large areas of the City, surrounded by thousands of people who need and want jobs, or for residential development if the need ever arises.

Of course, we'd need a new tax structure, enlightened City leadership, and citizens/unions etc who would cooperate to achieve a last ditch solution to reinvigorate the place.

Pie in the sky? You betcha.
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Chuckles
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Username: Chuckles

Post Number: 169
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 12, 2008 - 6:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The best bet for Detroit survival is for its(Detroit) being recognized by the manufacturing, packaging and Pre-Assembly-Assembly industries as a mecca for low cost labor, low cost real estate and huge Tax incentives...only then will the jobs required to fuel a city revival start flowing again...
Of course a much lower standard of living will have to be recognized and experienced for it all to work...
we could become a new Mexico City, or Bombay or Calcutta
I think we are starting to see this scenario develope in Moscow and other large Russian cities as well as other Eastern European cities/countries...it is all hand in hand with survival in a new Global Economy ...
Lets face it folks life and Demographics in this SouthEastern Michigan area has become a Have/HaveNot society, like it or not and the have-nots have to rethink their positions...
A lot to think about there...

Regards
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Jb3
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Username: Jb3

Post Number: 265
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 12, 2008 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's put it this way. The United States has no shortage of investment dollars. Having said that, what better place to invest billions of dollars other than Detroit? We have all of the attributes neccessary to create a 21st century city. What we lack is the will power to do it. We have so many entrenched businesses and lobbyists that it's disgusting. Ultimatley, in the grand scheme of things (agriculture, energy, construction) these people are big fishes in little f...ing ponds. What Detroit needs is an international marketing campaign that will set the stage for the future growth of our planet. We have the resources and we have the talent. What we lack is the go ahead nod.
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Jb3
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Username: Jb3

Post Number: 266
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 12, 2008 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a famous man once said...

'We have the tools! We have the Talent'...

name that quote....i dare you
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Mpow
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Username: Mpow

Post Number: 286
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Auto profits are down on domestic markets, but up in emerging markets like Asia and Latin American. I see Detroit
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Umbound
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Username: Umbound

Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 9:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why should Detroit have one identity why cant the city have many and diversify its economy, i am just wondering if somebody help me out with that our region was too dependent on the auto industry for too long in my opinion.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 7129
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What would be Detroit's future?







I can wait til OCP comes to town. Detro--I mean Delta City will be a better place.
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Mrsjdaniels
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Username: Mrsjdaniels

Post Number: 418
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 1:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't like seeing my city look like this but based on its current state, the city is really at a crossroads. I, unfortunately, do not see things changing anytime soon.
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Sharms
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Username: Sharms

Post Number: 47
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I went to Michigan State out of high school in 1968,,,,got my degree and found, at that time, I had two choices....I could work for a family business (no one in my family had a job for me) and I didn't want to work in a plant. So instead I found a job in Ohio and headed south. My goal was to work in my profession in Detroit and I was to make that work in 1980...loved it, but in my industry moving was always an option. I elected to take the option and go west. Never to return other that to visit friends up north near Traverse City. I do miss it though;'
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 3496
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Why should Detroit have one identity why cant the city have many and diversify its economy,"

identity doesn't have to be linked to economy, but even if it is it doesn't have to be linked to one sector or one product

I suspect that in most cases in the US a city's primary identity isn't defined by it's industry
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Chuckles
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Username: Chuckles

Post Number: 176
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit's identity is dubious at best...crime capitol of Midwest, ranking up there with other great crime centers like LA, Chi, Pitt, N.O., plus we have unparalled incompetence and malfeasance in our elected city officials...

but take heart we also have Eastern Market, River Walk, The Joe, Ford Field, CoMerica Park, Casinos, great Eateries, the best Coneys in the World, GreekTown, DIA, New Center area, and many many other places to visit Detroit is Good, Detroit is the place to visit....who cares what anyone other than a true Detroiter thinks....

Regards
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Peachlaser
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Username: Peachlaser

Post Number: 153
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3rdworldcity says, "Detroit is a sick city."

Healthcare costs are out of sight for both current employees and for the legacy costs of retirees making Detroit's products much too expensive. Until healthcare costs are gotten under control, labor costs can not be gotten under control unless the manufacturers go to other countries.

Unfortunately, there is no one with new ideas. All the candidates are debating is how to fund a failing system rather than how to overhaul the current system. The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. healthcare system #37 in the world... http://www.photius.com/ranking s/healthranks.html It is #1 in costs, but way below even developing nations in effectiveness. Do you hear any of the candidates or the auto manufacturers offering new ideas beyond the cry for cheaper drugs?

In studies done by the U.S. NIH in the late '90s, it was discovered that the U.S. healthcare system itself is the #1 killer of Americans when you group medical mistakes, drug interactions, unnecessary surgeries, infections caught while in the hospital, handwriting mistakes and similar mistakes. Obesity is now approaching the #1 single cause.

I am a big proponent of Detroit finding its future with alternative fuel sources and becoming a leader there with a new breed of transportation and I think Detroit can also be a leader in alternative healthcare. We still need our doctors and system for serious and life-threatening healthcare issues, but for the other 90% of common issues facing us in our lives, we must find more cost-effective and safe ways to maintain our health and resolve issues before they become serious.

I am still amazed that Detroit was the place where one powerful alternative healthcare method was discovered. The energy kinesiology techniques discovered in Detroit have inspired many other discoveries and modalities. What if Detroit built upon these and became a center of healing and helped get healthcare costs under control? I have recently trained several physicians that see more future in the techniques we teach than in their traditional medical training. They feel that they can actually help people rather than simply prescribing drugs which is their norm now. It has been estimated that up to 90% of the non-serious healthcare issues facing us today do not require the skills, resources or attention of medical doctors. What if a new system was developed that freed the doctors to focus on the serious situations while the non-serious situations were handled in a more-cost effective way?

But, these techniques require self-responsibility. What are the odds? For the auto bean-counters out there, what if healthcare costs could be reduced 50% across the board? What would that do the U.S. auto industry? Imagine Detroit becoming a center of healing rather than America's sick city.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5182
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 9:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is there any realistic and reliable evidence showing that Detroit or Michigan will have any leadership in alternate energy? What would be the sources of these energy alternatives? Are any of the sources nearby in order for Michigan to have any advantage over other states or countries? And why Detroit over other areas, in general?

Or is Michigan planning on reclaiming the hot air from its government figures instead?
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Peachlaser
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Username: Peachlaser

Post Number: 154
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernoisyard asks, "Is there any realistic and reliable evidence showing that Detroit or Michigan will have any leadership in alternate energy? What would be the sources of these energy alternatives?"

As was recently pointed out in one of the other threads, Detroit has one of the largest concentrations of automotive engineers in the world and one of the largest (if outdated) manufacturing capacities and sits at the hub of huge distribution networks. Detroit has the talent, brains and capacity, the question is does Detroit have the will and vision to see a new feature?

The Detroit area and American automotive manufacturing have some huge problems to overcome and I see progress being made. GM has particularly been active. The Volt, their support and participation in the solar raycers for years, their current support of the Corvette program and their switch to E85 this year.

Who's going to be the next Henry Ford and mass produce an affordable and reliable alternatively powered vehicle with a self-sustained source? Detroit has the resources to design, build and distribute such a vehicle. But, the U.S. has to get its healthcare programs and costs in line with reality to make such a vehicle affordable and possible.

So, there a huge opportunities alive in Detroit today. Who is going to step up to the plate?
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Gazhekwe
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Username: Gazhekwe

Post Number: 1499
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Peachlaser: What if Detroit ... became a center of healing and helped get healthcare costs under control?

That is very seductive thinking. I never heard of energy kinesiology, so read up a little on it, fascinating! I have been talking to health care professionals about the Medicine Wheel concept of healing these past several years. With a whole mind, body, spirit approach, healing takes on a different air. Rather than just taking a pill or many pills, and hoping things improve, the person is treated to strengthen the spirit while the body's healing mechanisms are encouraged. This takes the healing away from the medical establishment and gives it back to the person, along with the nurturing needed to correctly follow complex and life-changing treatment plans.

Where can one find local practitioners of energy kinesiology?
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5183
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mechanical engineers are not chemical engineers. I studied both electrical and chemical engineering at UW-Madison, and the segment of chemical engineering most in common with mechanical engineering is thermodynamics. Chemical engineering--the primary engineering discipline into alternative energy--actually has little to do with actual chemistry but deals a helluva lot with physical separations and materials science. So, I fail to see how effective mechanical engineers would be in Michigan's so-called leadership in alternative energy. Maybe somebody could locate and fill in this minor piece of the zig-saw puzzle.

Instead, I feel that Jenny was simply doing what she and others like her do best--talking and lawyering and deceiving people into believing that she has any answers.
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Otter
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Username: Otter

Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you hear any of the candidates or the auto manufacturers offering new ideas beyond the cry for cheaper drugs?

Peachlaser,

At least one (GM), if not all, of The Automakers Formerly Known As The Big Three have publicly supported a government-paid and -taxed single-payer healthcare system. Livernoisyard, this is your cue to run your "socialist" macro! :-)

I understand Livernoisyard's healthy skepticism but nonetheless share Peachlaser's optimism that Michigan has the raw ingredients to build leadership in alternative energy research, development and production, even if it may not yet show the necessary cultural and social ingredients.

P.S. How do you show quoted text here? I tried the html tags but they didn't seem to work.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5184
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Otter: RTFM, where M = Web page.

quote coding segment example: \quote{God-damned #@% DY radiclib, entitlement-mindset, wimpy & whiny, wussy, socialist this and that...} =>
quote:

God-damned #@% DY radiclib, entitlement-mindset, wimpy & whiny, wussy, socialist this and that...



The above is royalty-free and contains no copyright and may be freely copied all or in part...

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on February 15, 2008)
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Peachlaser
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Username: Peachlaser

Post Number: 155
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gazhekwe, we have the best technology and skills in the world to keep people alive after serious injury and surgery. We have amazing tools that can prolong life. But, these are all very expensive. Our system is set up for these serious situations and basically ignores the everyday goals of wellness, and staying well.

Our current system is one of last resort. Very expensive and leading-edge skills in trauma care, but not very good at dealing with the general issues of staying healthy. I want to use the low-cost and non-invasive approaches first and hopefully not need the system that is set up for life-saving and critical care situations. So, I see these techniques such as energy kinesiology as complementary and not replacement techniques. It is not an either-or situation.

But, you are right in your assessment that we can do many things to relieve the pains (physical/emotional/mental) without the need for dependence. After all, as Americans we are fiercely independent so having the means to maintain and improve our own health fits right into our model of self-responsibility and independence. God forbid, if I have a serious situation, though, call 911. Until then, let me do whatever I can to stay healthy without having to enter into the healthcare system.

Besides, healthcare costs are getting beyond the reach of many so what do you do then?

Here is a list of practitioners around the country for Touch for Health energy kinesiology which has some of its roots in Detroit: http://www.tfhka.org/practitio ner.htm
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Paulmcall
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Username: Paulmcall

Post Number: 593
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The comedy capital of the country. It will make you laugh until you cry.

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