  Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 37 Registered: 01-2008 |
I detest the concept of gated communities. My attitude is, if you are afraid to live in the city, move to the burbs. I have been dealing recently with issues in my Detroit neighborhood and was grateful to vent on this site. Issues resolved by working with local community and city groups. Funny that these gated communities in Detroit,appear to appeal to upwardly mobil afro americans. Guess you've given up on your own. I love my neighborhood's diversity and believe strongly in community. Gated communities create a negative type of social engineering. Hate to tell you living behind those gates but, you, who hide behind those gates are probably less safe then Detroiters who live in real communities. The gates are a false sense of security. You're the same people who hire out all menial tasks. Pooper scoopers, dog walkers/groomers, landscapers, interior decorators, painters, plumbers etc. all of them, have your codes. News flash, the minimum wage gate security don't much like you and can be easily by-passed. I am anglo, middle aged and female. I am grateful I don't have a mind set that dictates I need a gate to secure peace of mind. To my mind, people behind these gates are not Detroiters and do nothing to further the "Next Detroit". | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 120 Registered: 12-2004 |
Just because someone lives in a "gated" community (the only one I can think of off-hand is Harbortown) doesn't necessarily mean they are doing so simply because there is a gate... | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1435 Registered: 11-2003 |
So what's the excuse about those gated communities in the suburbs? Should they move out of their city too? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4435 Registered: 02-2005 |
Sumas, except for the fact that people in them pay taxes to the City, I also resent them. I resent them in all settings, but the suburbanization of the city is particularly egregious, as you are hinting at. | ||
Ro_resident Member Username: Ro_resident Post Number: 302 Registered: 11-2003 |
How do you feel about apartments/condos/coops with doormen? Do they give the residents a false sense of security? Aren't they just vertical gated communities? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4436 Registered: 02-2005 |
Apartment buildings belong in cities, or at least so says tradition. I think Sumas' point is just that a threat to a subdivision can find another way in if they want. And I'm sure he/she would say that the bigger problem is that everyone wants to turn their back on the rest of the city and their neighbors by living in these pens. They perceive themselves as being better than everyone else. Let's not downplay security. If a block association wants to hire extra security (or a cop for that matter-- what ever happened to the mayor's rent-a-cop idea?) that is one positive, practical idea. Tearing up the city to rebuild your own little utopia with a single-access network of culdesacs in order to get the feeling of security is a different story. (Message edited by mackinaw on February 13, 2008) | ||
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar Post Number: 944 Registered: 01-2006 |
Nearly every large apartment/condo complex within 3 miles of downtown has a limided access system of some point. Why the hate on the gated communities? My building has a doorperson and card access door entry. Are you going to bitch about not being able to come knock on my door? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 7120 Registered: 02-2004 |
The Homes in Palmer Park used to be gated to keep the po'folks, DEAD (C)KRAK HEADS, spookies, thieves and murderers out. Today most of the homes are not as gated. | ||
Irunwscissors Member Username: Irunwscissors Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2007 |
I don't think Painters and Plumbers are "menial". Anyone living anywhere will always be in need of these services. As far as poop scoopers and landscapers that is a convenience to people who have limited time or physical capability for maintenance. I appreciate the neighbors who use them, it shows responsibility for those who don't have time to keep up their yards ect..that they are not just letting them go because they either don't have the physical means or the time to give to do these tasks. In other words "gated community people" are not the only people who utilize these services, us neighborhood people use them too. Furthermore, lawn services are often your very own neighbors working in their communities. | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 380 Registered: 10-2003 |
when the revolution comes, the gates of the suburban subdivisions will come in handy and make it easier for field commander lamar lemmons to keep the sub-societal sub-urbans corralled and under his thumb. it's all part of the master plan. | ||
Drankin21 Member Username: Drankin21 Post Number: 167 Registered: 12-2003 |
I guess I have to leave now since I am hiring a landscaper and nanny and am too good for the forum. Some people don't have the time to do these things when both parents work. Don't lump me in with the people that live behind gates. I, for one, never would. But beating on someone else because they believe that it is a deterrent on some level is not right. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 4536 Registered: 12-2005 |
Gated communities are becoming more common in Phoenix. There's also a tradition there of erecting high cinderblock walls around back yards. This style is said to be a carryover from a similar style in Mexican haciendas. They added a steel fence with gates around our apartment complex there because of the notoriously high car theft rate in Phoenix. It was designed to restrict entry but not exit. Kids routinely scaled the fence into the area. The gates would open automatically for all exiting vehicles. Why would anyone think such a design would prevent auto theft? It was a disaster. It was cramped. It felt like a prison. Nobody liked it. On at least three occasions, people actually crashed through the steel gates/fence to get out despite the auto-open gates. (Many drive large pickups there.) I assume they were angry or inebriated or possibly the gates wouldn't open. Gated communities are a horrible idea. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 589 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote: If only we still had our best organizers for that battle https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/6790/68357.html | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 381 Registered: 10-2003 |
Who will rise up to fill the noble boots of General ItsJeff? the time is now! Can we collectively inspire Colonel LivernoisYard of the Special Ferrous Forces to summon his rag tag army of SW freedom-loving auto salvagers and pig iron pugilists to god blessed revolt against the sub-urbans hegemony??? The citizenry of the D would love a good fight...it will be the mobilization of a new arsenal of democracy for a new generation of lathe men and toolers, machinists and welders. Upon victory, we can build our transit system on the backs of the enslaved suburbans...tax free! (Message edited by detourdetroit on February 13, 2008) | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2718 Registered: 01-2005 |
They're common in the Las Vegas area. I don't think they provide one ounce more of security than non-gated. The one at the Anthem Country Club has a security manned gate that is staffed by idiots who are so slow clearing people in that the traffic backs up to the main road going past the community. Nope, not for me. I don't care for their Escalades and Hummers, either. | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 38 Registered: 01-2008 |
Thank you Mackinaw for getting at the essence of my concern. I appreciate all comments. My personal opinion, is just that, an opinion. I like it when people can express diverse opinions without getting mean. With open minds and exchanges, people can grow in understanding. I do have some extra thoughts but it must wait til later. I need to eat dinner and get to my community EEV monthly meeting. Great people, great neighborhood. Buy in EEV. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1459 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: True, if someone wants to prey on someone else, they will find a way to do it, gates or not. quote: Here you lose me with your elitist, sneering implication that these working class people represent a potential threat to a certain segment of citizenry, or anyone else for that matter. These are not the kind of folks that any rational individual would fear or cast aspersions on, unless perhaps that person was "psychologically projecting". (Message edited by Mikeg on February 13, 2008) | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2720 Registered: 01-2005 |
Good point, Mike. I don't know who said it, but I always liked the phrase, "All work is honorable". | ||
Yaktown Member Username: Yaktown Post Number: 304 Registered: 02-2006 |
I'm sure the people living in those gated communities have taken note of your statement. | ||
Umtim Member Username: Umtim Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2007 |
I would think the problem is the climate of fear. Why do we need to be afraid of each other? What do we have that is so important that we need to erect barriers between us? | ||
Drankin21 Member Username: Drankin21 Post Number: 168 Registered: 12-2003 |
Umtim< The feeling of security (justified or not) is something that people find important. Erecting barriers is something that people FEEL make them more secure. Whether it is true or not does not matter really. Someone made a decision to live a life in which they FEEL more secure. The argument over whether or not they are actually secure is moot. | ||
Chow Member Username: Chow Post Number: 449 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Let's not downplay security. If a block association wants to hire extra security that is one positive, practical idea. Tearing up the city to rebuild your own little utopia with a single-access network of culdesacs in order to get the feeling of security is a different story." The cul-de-sac style development was built because that is what is/was desirable in the region. Banks would, albeit reluctantly, give loans to build in that style but not in more urban styled developments. The issue here is not about security (which in cul-de-sac style developments is grossly over estimated) its about economics. | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 41 Registered: 01-2008 |
My point was not to cast aspersions on the service industry but to make the point that hundreds of people, Strangers if you will have access to security codes. I noticed Irunwscissors took offense to my use of the word menial, I should have put the word in italics, I was trying to use irony but obviously failed. I noticed s/he defended plumbers and painters but I guess the rest were ok to lump as menial. For the record, I have been a licensed garden service since 1994. I do this part time as supplemental income. I'm licensed in Detroit and all of the Points. My core customers have been with me that long. Are you implying that I am menial? My response to Drankin21, I too have had a nanny. She was personally fantastic however used bad judgement in letting in to our home (boy)friends (she wasn't supposed to)that weren't. We had a series of home and garage invasions that were linked to these (strangers to us)in my home that were able to case our house. But I have strayed off the point...Gated Communities. Someone made the point that these new communities add new taxes. The reality is all of these communities are rubbered stamped NEZ communities by Detroit. That means they are taxed well below their property value. The person that receives the largest tax abatement in the state lives in Shorepointe Village at Grayhaven, Detroit. Nez was meant to benefit low and moderate income families not the affluent. My point is that people who hide behind gates are not likely to support local businesses so I see no residual benefit to the community at large. | ||
Umtim Member Username: Umtim Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2007 |
Another way of looking at it is the Lord, vassal, serf mentality. The gated community is viewed by some as a castle and those outside it are serfs. I'm thinking fear rules those inside and not so much the Lord of the manor concept, but I could be mistaken. Sometimes you just have to live with your fear till you learn there is no reason for it. | ||
Ro_resident Member Username: Ro_resident Post Number: 303 Registered: 11-2003 |
Just to be clear, I'm no big fan of gated communities. <planner-ese> The problem with gated communities is they mix up people's expectations of what is public and what is private. Gated communities wall off areas that are typically public. That creates a tension of being institutional. Whereas apartment buildings have a reasonable expectation of being private, therefore having limited access can be expected. Of course, that theory flies out the window when you have a superblock apartment building/complex with perimeter fencing and security. Once again, the pendulum swings back to the institutional side. <planner-ese\> I viewed the security issue as a red herring. | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 358 Registered: 06-2007 |
I worked in one as a gate attendant. Id love to live in one. It creates privacy. No one can go door-to-door trying to harass you into buying something, which many people aren't fond of.The complex I worked at had a reputation with the PD for being quiet and having a minimal amount of calls, whereas Rashes of thefts from cars occurred frequently at other complexes.Repo men were not allowed to enter-Management REQUIRED a police escort. People who were unwanted for safety reasons (threats, violence, etc) were documented and denied entry.People living in these neighborhoods have a quieter, more tranquil life than others, and welcome to the real world, some people actually want it. Right now, people keep coming to my door with religious literature trying to convert me. In a gated community, that doesnt happen. | ||
Jfried Member Username: Jfried Post Number: 1106 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sumas - where are all these gated neighborhoods that the city rubber stamps with nez approval? I can think of very few. As for the gates, in general, how is this much different that putting locks on your front door and fencing the yard of your single family home? | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 43 Registered: 01-2008 |
Riverfront, Harbortown, Morgan Estates, Grayhaven Estates, Shorepointe Village, Morgan Riverfront Properties and a forth Property on western Grayhaven, don't know the name of the developer but do know it is planned as a gated community, to name a few. Victoria Park is a compound but not strictly gated... all of these offer NEZ as a purchase inducement. Phoenix Group also owns property to be developed again on the riverfront. The funniest gated community is Grayhaven. A gated/guarded entry. On the land or shore at the northern end is garden apartments 20% is supposed to be leased to low income. The reason for this is that MSHDA made a loan that made this development possible. MSHDA audits routinely show that this agreement is not being upheld. If you progress over the bridge to the island, slightly under 1/2 of the island is rental townhouses. In the middle of the island are three historic homes, the relics of the original Grayhaven. There is a another unmanned electronic gate. One of the historic homes is outside the gate..the other two inside. The gate was not approved but it was built anyways and has operated since. A third gate was also proposed further south on the island for the flagship (riverfront)homes. That gate was never built. The rationale by the developer, The first gate was to keep out the surrounding community (riffraff), the second gate was to keep homeowners separate from renters (scum), the third gate was to keep the very rich separate from the middle class ( common ones). I strongly believe that gated communities promote classism at its very worst. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1286 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sorry Sumas, but your sense of irony was totally lost on me, as with many others, with the use of the word "menial." | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 383 Registered: 10-2003 |
the huzzah spirit of ItsJeff, et al is NOT happening on this thread...too bad. People are actually talking about issues. Gates = Evil | ||
Irunwscissors Member Username: Irunwscissors Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2007 |
"I noticed s/he defended plumbers and painters but I guess the rest were ok to lump as menial." No, Sumas all of your mentioned services are very important to individuals who may use them. I was using Plumbers and Painters as examples because they to me, would be the most commonly used services to all. Not everyone needs a pet sitter, but most will probably one day need a plumber. BTW, no offense taken. However, I agree with Burnsie, the examples used for irony masked the integrity of your message. | ||
Jfried Member Username: Jfried Post Number: 1107 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sumas - like I said, there are very few gated communities in Detroit. While some of those developments you mention are single family homes, they are site condos, meaning that those homeowners do not own their lots, rather the condo association owns the land. They pay fees for maintenance & amenities(grass cutting, pool maintenance, etc.) so why wouldn't they secure the perimeter of their property? If I have locks on my doors and I have a fence around my single family home does that mean I'm scared of the city? I think it's common sense to secure your property and provide some sort or privacy. | ||
Raggedclaws Member Username: Raggedclaws Post Number: 130 Registered: 08-2006 |
Sumas, to be truly open-minded and respectful of others' opinions (as you indicated you are in your second post on this thread) would be to allow those who wish to live in gated communities to do so without you judging them. Your original post, the one you would like us to believe was written to stimulate growth, understanding, and an open-minded exchange on the merits of gated communities, is full of bitterness, resentment, and anger. You make an awful lot of assumptions about gated communities and those who live in them. First-hand knowledge, perhaps ? Did you get kicked out of one ? | ||
Living_in_the_d Member Username: Living_in_the_d Post Number: 60 Registered: 01-2008 |
Yeah, I can"t believe nobody has mentioned the H.O.A."s (Big Brother), that go along with these things. | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 44 Registered: 01-2008 |
I quote Raggedclaws: "Your original post, the one you would like us to believe was written to stimulate growth, understanding, and an open-minded exchange on the merits of gated communities, is full of bitterness, resentment, and anger." Wow!•• With your selection of Raggedclaws as a user name I would have to question, who is the bitter, resentful and angry person? Your comment, "Was I kicked out of one" was extremely insulting". Haven't I stated that I detest the concept of classism of gates and all it implies. No, I have never lived in a gated community. No I would never live in a gated community. No, I have never been "kicked" out of anywhere. Do I have first hand knowledge of gated communities: yes. Do I have friends that live in gated communities: yes. Have I worked for people in gated/guarded communities: yes. Do I have friends and family that disagree with me: yes. Do you or others have the right to disagree with me: yes. And yes, I am aware that many of the gated developments are detached condo's where people don't own the land their house sits on. My OPINION is, how dumb is that? Do people have the right to protect and secure their homes: yes. Do people have the right to choose gated communities: yes Should the privileged have the right to hide behind gates, and ignore the communities that surround them: No. My Opinion, of course. The marketplace will prevail and will determine what will be the next Detroit. I pity the Next Detroit and current/future residents who support the isolation concept. | ||
Raggedclaws Member Username: Raggedclaws Post Number: 131 Registered: 08-2006 |
"Should the PRIVILEGED have the right to HIDE behind gates, and IGNORE the communities that surround them ?" - Sumas I rest my case, Sumas. Ragged Claws is in reference to the TS Eliot poem "The Love Song of J Alfred Prufrock". Much deeper than bitterness,resentment and anger. If you decide to take a break from pontificating about the "next Detroit" you should read yourself some TS. Unless you have surveyed all of the Detroit gated-community residents and can say absolutely that they are privileged and ignoring the surrounding community you have no right to make the assertions & assumptions that you have in this thread. A truly enlightened Detroiter would understand that Detroit is a "live and let live" city. No judgements. Your posts are just silly, sorry I feel obligated to let you know that. :-) | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 1012 Registered: 01-2005 |
Raggedclaws: Amen. | ||
Newport1128 Member Username: Newport1128 Post Number: 174 Registered: 05-2007 |
I live in a condominium complex in the suburbs, and I wish we DID have a gate, not to keep out pedestrians, but cars that don't belong here. The residents pay to repair and maintain our streets, not the city. Non-residents use our private roads (which are marked "Private") to cut through from one major street to another. They go 30-40 mph when our speed limit signs say 15. They throw trash out their windows. I'm tired of picking up these bums' pop cans, whiskey bottles and McD bags. We have no sidewalks, so walkers and joggers have to use the street, and it's unsafe for them because of the speeders. | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 360 Registered: 06-2007 |
well put, Newport. I guess Sumas thinks everyone should be bombarded at 8 PM by pushy high-school salesmen trying to strongarm you into buying magazine subscriptions to help him/her go on a suppossed trip to Hawaii or wherever. The argument that low-wage guards "don't like" the people living in the community is BS. I was one. It was the same with all of us working there. We liked the people that were nice to us, we disliked those who were mean, but the management was our boss, and we had to deal with their wrath if we let the security get bypassed.That often meant getting canned. There were plenty of people we liked, because they didnt have a resentful attitude like (ahem) does. we had residents that brought us cookies at Christmas.Yeah, real class warfare... Rich people bringing treats for low-income guards. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4437 Registered: 02-2005 |
Dozens of the area's most successful neighborhoods are located in Grosse Pointe, a place that most people around here would also associate with the 'privileged,' or at least people who surely are not lower class. 99 percent of the population does not live in a gated community or single-access point subdivision, as there is only one, upper Provencal, where there are about a dozen homes on the golf course. All of these neighborhoods are porous-- open unto Detroit in many cases-- and they all have those damn 'hassles' of people trying to sell stuff and people speeding down the block and the occasional property crime. Yet the neighborhoods succeed. So, how do gates make a place a great place to live in again? | ||
Raggedclaws Member Username: Raggedclaws Post Number: 135 Registered: 08-2006 |
^^ "So, how do gates make a place a great place to live in again ?" They don't necessarily. The point is that it seems to be a personal preference for some, perhaps based on some emotional criteria for feeling safe - who knows without actually studying & surveying gated community residents. There is no right or wrong here. It's a preference that frankly is not detrimental to anyone else and is not deserving of the ire it raises. Think of it like this: Detroit's gated community obviously has an interest in living in Detroit - under the right circumstances. Just like Supersport. His "circumstance"/safety net apparently is his gun and his dogs. Ever notice the gates on some Detroiter's doors & windows ? Home security systems ? | ||
Elsuperbob Member Username: Elsuperbob Post Number: 114 Registered: 03-2007 |
^^ "It's a preference that frankly is not detrimental to anyone else and is not deserving of the ire it raises." Gated communities are detrimental in the same way super blocks are, they break apart the fabric of the city into tiny little fiefdoms. It can break apart neighborhoods or add walls that permanently separate neighboring neighborhoods by making outsiders walk longer distances around rather than through them if they were a part of city. It can also create a "hostile" feeling streetscape. Some of my groupmates for my current school project that are from areas where these kinds of communities are rare or non-existent find the numbers of gates and fences surrounding buildings or "communities" very uninviting. It discourages interaction and encourages isolation. It's similar to the RenCen. It seems the general consensus is that the berms were bad and I agree. They were like walls turning the RenCen into an isolated fortress that turned its back onto the city. But at least in the case of the RenCen it still was accessible. These gated communities aren't even that. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 739 Registered: 08-2007 |
In Kalamazoo I lived on a dead-end street in what had been a dodgy neighborhood, ... drugs, shootings and a lot of buglaries ... then at the mouth of the street a motor cycle gang moved into two houses directly across the street from one another. It became the safest street in the city overnight. That gang controlled everything, and everybody, that ventured down the street. I'd walk by their houses, salute them as they hung out on the porches, and receive a crisp salute in return."yo! Gnome! How's school going?" One day my Dad came for a visit and I had to go down and get him, as Homer and Bubba stopped him from driving down the street. I guess it didn't help tha Dad was driving a State Car with the Michigan State seal on the side. One of gang children ran down and knocked on my door, to let me know that I had a visitor. I hustled down there and found my Dad chatting and laughing with three ZZTop look-alikes while the guys sat on the hood passing a 40 back and forth. It was a tad surreal. Needless to say, Dad needed some clarification, but he was able to see the logic. All in all, gated communities exist as they fill a need. I don't fault someone for wanting to live in one, don't think they are all bad, and I can point to Layfeyette Park as an excellent example where a thriving neighborhood can be a boon to the city and a shining example of what Detroit could be: a racially diverse, economically diverse, thriving community. oh, for those who care, the Motorcycle gang did all their evil deeds far away from their homes ... pre-crack, pre-meth days. They just sold pot, cocaine, tax-free cigarettes, booze and gambling. Wholesome outlaws. | ||
Raggedclaws Member Username: Raggedclaws Post Number: 136 Registered: 08-2006 |
Elsuperbob, did you just state that the gated communities can create a hostile feeling streetscape ? Are you for real ? Could you clarify what you mean by "hostile" ? The freeways broke apart Detroit neighborhoods long ago. Gated communities exist simply as an alternative to extensive individual home security or living in the 'burbs. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4438 Registered: 02-2005 |
I believe Elsuperbob calls to mind a symptom that comes with most modern suburban landscapes (or anything that imitates suburbia): they just aren't built for people to be walking around. Everything is easily accessible by car, and the streets are so wide (and the sidewalks, if present, are so small or destination-less), that no one is ever out in public in these neighborhoods, and anyone who is (especially if they don't look like a typical denizen of that neighborhood) is considered a threat. I agree with Raggedclaws that the city is already in fragments, but replacing the current landscapes with subdivisions ain't helping. Regarding "Ever notice the gates on some Detroiter's doors & windows ? Home security systems?," the fact is, rebuilding a neighborhood and building walls is much different and much more obstrusive that putting in an alarm. This comes down to the 'any development is good development' argument that has been repeated many times. Clearly the City needs all the taxpayers it can get, but the long-run benefits from retaining the urban fabric and focusing on ways to redevelop within that framework far outweigh the gains from changing the landscape and retaining a few dozen residents. Subdivisions have been built in the city for a decade or two now, but it isn't exactly giving a major boost to the City coffers. Our revenue stream needs to get into another stratosphere to help the budget situation, and the overhaul we need to get new people and businesses goes far beyond allowing gated subdivisions. (Message edited by mackinaw on February 15, 2008) | ||
Elsuperbob Member Username: Elsuperbob Post Number: 115 Registered: 03-2007 |
I mean hostile as in they deter people, turn them away, close off the world behind them. And it can work both ways, on the people outside but also inside. | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2007 |
Sumas, Do you detest only the concept of gated communities, or do you also detest the people who live in them? I get the sense from your OP that, even if 'detest' is too strong a word, your feelings are directed at the individuals and not just at the ideas that you see behind gated communities and also presumed to be held by everyone who lives in them ("you're the people who...") I don't know if this is the case, but it sounds that way when I read what you wrote. If you want to make a case against the idea of gated communities, then you'll have more success in not personalizing it - that is, attacking ideas rather than people that hold them. If you would rather that people in gated communities in Detroit moved to the suburbs, what would you suggest for people who live in gated communities in the same suburbs? It suggests assumptions behind why those people chose those places to live in Detroit that may not be true, but remain unspoken. Re: your comment on upwardly mobile african-americans "giving up on their own" by moving into such places - who are their own? Is their primary responsibility to identify with other black people? Is this more important than identifying as, say, middle class, or as professionals, or as heads of families, or than having multiple identities in multiple degrees? Who are your own? White people? White people who live in Detroit? EEV homeowners? Women? Gardeners? All of the above? Others? The way you talk about this suggests either unfounded assumptions about people who live in gated communities. Would you care to elaborate? What kind(s) of communities of people exist, or develop, within gated communities? Are suburban ones different than urban ones? What are the possibilities, what are the actualities, and what do you know about them? What makes a 'real community' and why is a gated community not one? Can it be? What do you think of the example of Lafayette Park brought up by another poster? I bring all this up to challenge you to think about what you brought up, or, to the extent that you have to talk about why you think what you think, and to point out some of the apparent assumptions behind your writing. I happen to agree with you that in practice, gated communities promote classism in its more pernicious forms, but I don't think that they have to. I do think that Elsuperbob made some good points on the subject, though. | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 47 Registered: 01-2008 |
I spent a lot of time soul searching regarding this issue. I then spent about three hours writting a post. For whatever reason, my post would not send. I diminished it. Took care of a few other things. When I came back all my efforts/thoughts were just gone. I will try tommorrow to convey my opinions. My computer has a mind of its own so maybe I didn't give my best effort. My lament.... three hours spent trying to articulate my position are lost. Oh well, Que serra serra. |
