Discuss Detroit Archives - January 2008 Solar Powered Mag-Lev to Be Built in Michigan Previous Next
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 227
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/ 02/13/interstate-traveler-hydr ogen-super-highway-world%e2%80 %99s-first-multi-utility-high- speed-rail-system/#more-8072
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 5114
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh Lord, it's back!
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2681
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This damn thing better get built now. DetroitYES! is mandating it.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 5115
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And yet it's still been 2 years since their site was updated.

http://www.interstatetraveler. us/news.htm
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Eboyer
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Username: Eboyer

Post Number: 74
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's a thread on this already.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1100
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mr. Sutton first proposed this in 1995, so I'm not sure why it's being referred to as a "new project". I think this is a concept and nothing more than a concept.

There is no PRT system in operation anywhere on Earth, by the way, and transportation experts do not even agree it is physically possible.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 5116
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not sure what prompted this article in Inhabit. There doesn't appear to be anything to indicate something has changed or moved forward.
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 228
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just post 'em...I didn't post any editorial comment on my thoughts on the article...just the article itself.
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Detroitpetanque
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Username: Detroitpetanque

Post Number: 50
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:53 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's gotta work! There's a 6 minute ANIMATION on the 2 year old website to prove it!

Of course, there's also animations of Harry Potter flying on a broomstick too. Maybe Michigan can build those too!
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 5117
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 11:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's all your fault, D_mcc. Everything.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1101
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The flying broomsticks reminded me of something. In the early days of the internet, when people were trying to decide how to move data, the system for communicating was a document called an RFC (request for comments). Most of them were serious, very technical and very dense.

Every April 1, somebody would put up a fake RFC, which was assigned a real number and tracked like the others, and my favorite was when someone proposed a data transport method called CPP which stood for "Carrier Pigeon Protocol", which was assigned the tracking number RFC 1149.

The first few paragraphs give the tone:

"Network Working Group D. Waitzman
Request for Comments: 1149 BBN STC
1 April 1990

A Standard for the Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers

Status of this Memo

This memo describes an experimental method for the encapsulation of IP datagrams in avian carriers. This specification is primarily useful in Metropolitan Area Networks. This is an experimental, not recommended standard. Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

Overview and Rational[sic]

Avian carriers can provide high delay, low throughput, and low altitude service. The connection topology is limited to a single point-to-point path for each carrier, used with standard carriers, but many carriers can be used without significant interference with each other, outside of early spring. This is because of the 3D ether space available to the carriers, in contrast to the 1D ether used by IEEE802.3. The carriers have an intrinsic collision avoidance system, which increases availability. Unlike some network technologies, such as packet radio, communication is not limited to line-of-sight distance. Connection oriented service is available in some cities, usually based upon a central hub topology."

If that works, then this might work too :-)
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 230
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^Damn...Looks like its time to bust out my 'ole hangin' rope...
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1893
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Detroit attracts these sorts of unrealistic projects because our car-oriented developers get to snicker and laugh as well-meaning transit advocates get suckered into supporting these things. How many proposed transit plans for metro Detroit involve extremely rare experimental magnetic levitation trains, unworkable PRT systems, bizarre BRT plans, and theme-park-style monorails?
Now, there is one mode of transit that is successfully driving investment in urban areas and reducing pollution and traffic congestion. It's being implemented in cities across the United States with great success. It was a very successful mode of transportation in Detroit for a half-century. It's called LIGHT RAIL, or streetcars.
Jesus, with more light rail being laid down every year, the technology is better tested, the know-how is better transferable, the rolling stock and systems are better standardized, and the economies of scale should reduce the overall cost. Governments are more likely to trust light rail projects enough to subsidize them. The city was set up to accommodate them. Many older people even remember when they were on all major thoroughfares.
So, what better to do than to sidestep practical, efficient, standardized light rail, instead shooting for pie-in-the-sky, untested systems that will be expensive to maintain and impractical to implement. This will start transit advocates arguing with each other, and we'll therefore be able to postpone taking any action for another decade!
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1102
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nobody's shooting for this, 'nerd. Somebody is just pointing out a recent repost of a 13 year old web page, and it is nothing more than a web page. I doubt the poster knew it was something old being reposted.
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Detroitpetanque
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Username: Detroitpetanque

Post Number: 51
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The entire concept is ridiculous and the folks who drew up those pictures should be flogged!

Wouldn't it be more efficient to build the system for passengers and some freight only, and not also for each of the passenger's automobiles as well?

Just think of the space/weight/time delay for passengers loading their cars into the "capsules"

If people want to travel/commute from 1 city to another they don't need a car - that's the whole purpose of a commuter train.

OH, and while we're talking about virtual businesses, I also heard that Michigan is also in charge of building "Star Trek"-style teleporters too... with teleportation pads large enough for a Hummer to drive atop and be teleported.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1895
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zat so, prof? Fair enough. Anyway, I stand by my suspicious, cynical remarks. :-)
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Mbr
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Username: Mbr

Post Number: 306
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/128354.html?1203013878
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1676
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is this kinda like the cable cars going over the Detroit River? Never going to happen.
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 232
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nerd...to Say Maglevs are rare is an uneducated statement. Granted they aren't common, but they are far from experimental these days.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1898
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 12:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point, D_mcc. But I still think of them as experiments. Like the British one. That one, technically, wasn't experimental. It ran for 11 years and then it was discontinued. Doesn't that imply that it was a sort of learning process? They are running one in China. But that one has even been called a "demonstration line" -- plus it goes to the airport, which sorta implies "experimental" to me, since airports are fertile grounds for emerging transit systems.
It was a poor word choice, but my point isn't too far off, I think. From early feasibility studies through to working out kinks in the system, these ambitious projects maybe are being implemented, but are still largely learning as they go, aren't they?
Besides, the fastest maglev train in the world is pretty fast, but only a little bit faster than a TGV. If that's so, just how mature is this technology anyway?
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1104
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 1:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maglev is a proven technology and is used in some mass transit systems. But the article refers to a variety of something called PRT, which does not exist anywhere and probably never will. Just IMVHO as usual.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1902
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 1:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, yeah. PRT is a whole nother thing. I know. :-)
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 239
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nerd, Speed should not be the benchmark for maturity. After all, I would consider a 747 to be more efficient than the Concord SST, but the Concord was 3 times a fast.

It boils down to energy efficiency, environmental impact, and reliability.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1907
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

D_mcc: True, but speed is one of the mode's notable strong points, no? That's why I was surprised to see that the fastest maglev goes only 2 or 3 mph faster than TGV.
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 240
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps, but if they are more energy efficient and the impact on the environment is significantly less, perhaps comparable speed is to be considered a success against a TGV???
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1908
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe. I just have a hard time seeing maglev as a mature technology.

Must have spent too much time playing Railroad Tycoon. :-)
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 241
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why can't it be considered a future tech? We have been using the internal combustion engine for over 100 years, and the MagLev for maybe 20??? It is very efficient, reliable, and safe...and by the way the speed of the Maglev depends on the strength of the superconductor. just because production speeds compare to the TGV, does not mean that that top speed is the ceiling for the technology.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 5130
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I <3 Railroad Tycoon.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1910
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anyway, they are rare, aren't they?

(Except in Railroad Tycoon! haha. I'm with you, Johnlodge!)
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 243
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not really. Compared to other trains they are. High-speed maglevs are expensive to build, but they less expensive to operate and maintain than traditional trains, planes or buses
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 244
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not really. Compared to other trains they are. High-speed maglevs are expensive to build, but they less expensive to operate and maintain than traditional trains, planes or buses
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1911
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 2:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How many maglev systems are there?
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 245
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 3:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dunno, I'll make some phone calls...?

6 running, 2 under construction, 20 in some form of planning or preconstruction, not including the transoceanic proposals.
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Ednaturnblad
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Username: Ednaturnblad

Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 3:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wasn't there a Simpsons episode about some kind of light-rail fix-all-ills system? As I recall, the results were disastrous! I'm voting against this!
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1912
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 3:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Six systems in a world of billions, with countless transit systems, seems rare to me. But for the sake of argument, can we agree they are uncommon? :-)
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 247
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 3:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, they are uncommon...but I am sure the steam locomotive was rare when it was first developed as well...and lets not forget about those new-fangled horseless carriages.

Edna...that would be Monorail episode with Leonard Nemoy
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1913
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 3:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

D_mcc: You must think I'm just bustin' on maglev, but I'm not. :-)

Oh, and I believe that monorail episode was written by Conan O'Brien.

WIGGUM: The cap fell off my pudding can.
LANLEY: Use my penknife, my good man!
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 248
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 3:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mono-d'oh!
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Gsgeorge
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Username: Gsgeorge

Post Number: 578
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 3:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

There is no PRT system in operation anywhere on Earth, by the way, and transportation experts do not even agree it is physically possible.




Professorscott, I gotta call you out on this one.

PRT system in operation in Morgantown, West Virginia since 1975
PRT coming to Heathrow Airport
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1914
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 3:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, man. The old PRT debate. I am soooo outta here.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3893
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 4:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

D_mcc knows a lot about a decades-old technology that exists virtually nowhere.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1105
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 4:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The system operating in Morgantown is not PRT, it is just about precisely what the Detroit People Mover is. Calling it PRT doesn't make it so. The Heathrow system is "coming", so it doesn't yet exist.

The basic concept of PRT is that it is point to point and the cars are small, and the system contains lots of branches and loops so you can get anywhere you want to go. This does not exist, and the Heathrow "PRT" is not going to be anything like what I just described either, assuming it actually gets built.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 5557
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 6:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So we should build a mag-lev?
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Hans57
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Username: Hans57

Post Number: 287
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 6:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yup.
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L_b_patterson
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Username: L_b_patterson

Post Number: 340
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 7:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like how we are so car dependent, that we have to come up with a new way to move them quicker. (the car in a car image)
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 465
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 10:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If this was going to a proposed casino or racetrack to be located in Romulus, we would have hit the trifecta on pie-in-the-sky Detroit-area\ development proposals.
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Detroit313
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Username: Detroit313

Post Number: 622
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 11:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Never gonna happen!

I'm willing to bet my car on it!<313>
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 5560
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 8:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, my post 5557 was in response to a post that was subsequently deleted by the poster. I swear I didn't bump this nonsense. :-)

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