Discuss Detroit » Archives - January 2008 » Should I go to traffic court in Detroit? « Previous Next »
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Irvine_laird
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Username: Irvine_laird

Post Number: 80
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A Detroit Police officer pulled me over the other night because he claimed I ran a red light at Brush and the I-75 service drive. He claimed that light is always red, never green or yellow, but I feel certain it was yellow when I went through it. I wasn't speeding. Now, I've never had a ticket in my life and I am a cautious driver. In fact, when I perpetrated this "crime", my fiance was giving me a hard time about driving "too nice." The cop gave me a real hard time and even told me I'd been drinking (even though I hadn't had a drop). He chewed me out--got kind of rude--even though I was as respectful and soft-spoken as I could be. He wrote me a $125 ticket for "failing to yield" or something like that. Should I bother going to traffic court or should I just pay the fine? After all, it's his word against mine.
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Rel
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Username: Rel

Post Number: 150
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Go! Contest it, and point out your perfect record. He was trying to fish for an OUI.

You may not need a lawyer for this one... I would just go, be sincere, and honest about what happened. It's not that big a ticket, but it could raise your insurance rates.
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Cdwaters
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Username: Cdwaters

Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is your word against his, but because he has sworn an oath as a police officer, his word usually holds more weight. That doesn't mean he wasn't rude, or you weren't in the right, though. I just stated in a thread about 36th District Court how it paid in my case to fight a ticket (read the thread for other's input.) The worse that can happen is you waste a day downtown and still have to pay it. Just plan on making a day of it and see what happens. I wouldn't mention the cops demeanor, however. I would stress your driving history and that you strongly feel you were not guilty.
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Cdwaters
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Username: Cdwaters

Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

P.S. I would go to the scene and make sure that the light does turn yellow instead of staying red. Take a picture of it from the same time of day you were ticketed and offer it to the judge, saying he ticketed you because he believed it is never red, so he probably assumed it was and didn't bother to check before he pulled me over. Even if you go there and find out it is always red as he says, still fight it based on your record.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1922
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My advice would be: Don't contradict the cop. Go to court. It seems they often run late. When they run late, they'll let you go without points if they run late enough. That's what was happening when I went before Mag. Lockheart a few years ago. The longer they make you wait, the more likely you'll get off without points.
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Sirrealone
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Username: Sirrealone

Post Number: 90
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dumb question, but if the light is always red, how does anyone legally proceed through it?
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Cdwaters
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Username: Cdwaters

Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

blinking red
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Rel
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Username: Rel

Post Number: 151
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cdwaters- she may have to contradict the officer if that's her version. Good tip on taking the picture, btw.

I have nothing but respect for Detroit's Finest, but if her version is different from the officer's, she should still give her side, I think.

IL, you might want to check out the other current thread on 36th Dist. Good luck!
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Chuckjav
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Username: Chuckjav

Post Number: 379
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Irvine_laird....per your posting: Officer stated "light is always red" (blinking red?); you stated "I feel certain it was yellow when I went through it".

If you take the case to court, be prepared to lose.

I'm not saying you should/should not have your day in court; I'm just saying that you will most likely not prevail in this instance.
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Cdwaters
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Username: Cdwaters

Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rel, I agree, it was Detroitnerd that said not to contradict the cop, I only suggested not to bring up the rudeness issue. Unfortunately, the attitude of the cop won't have any bearing as to the finding of the judge. Best not to open that can of worms.
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Gnome
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Username: Gnome

Post Number: 757
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fight it.

The points on your license will increase your insurance rates for years to come.

Bring a copy of your driving record.

Bring photos of the intersection. Take the photos at the same time of day. Bring a large map showing your position and the position of the officer. Take pictures from the officer's point-of-view showing he had a restricted view of the intersection. If he was behind you you are at a disadvantage.

Your position should be that this is just an unfortunate misunderstanding. You respect the officer, but in this instance he is mistaken.

The whole "rude" thing isn't something you should mention as that becomes a he said/he said thing.

If the officer shows up, and testifies you can ask him about his car-side interrogation. He may mention that he suspected you of drinking. If he does bring up the alcohol ask him if he is aware that observing a crime and not reporting it is a violation of police policy. If he brings up "officer discretion" ask him how many drunk drivers he lets go every year.

Boom. If he says "none", you have him for letting you go; if he says a number, you have him for violating policy. lose, lose = you win.

You can get a copy of his record. A lawyer can get this for you, you can do it yourself, but it's a pain. An officer with a dodgy record could influence the judge.

If you are found guilty, request that the ticket is taken "under advisement". That means that if you don't get a ticket for a 6 months or a year, all record of this ticket will be expunged from your record. You will still have to pay the fine, and that money is lost, but it is the points you need to worry about.
---
EDIT:
GOOGLE MAPS VIEW SHOWS INTERSECTION WITH GREEN LIGHT
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&q=brush,&near=Detroit,+MI&fb=1&ll=42.345763,-83.048851&spn=0.007073,0.020063&z=16&layer=c&cbll=42.34221,-83.04892&cbp=1,165.7319935691315,,0,4.855305466237936

(Message edited by gnome on February 18, 2008)
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 687
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, you should go to traffic court to defend yourself, whether it is in Detroit or any other cities for that matter.

The good cops are being outnumbered by the bad cops. I have spoken to a few good officers, some retired, there are police officers right here on this forum ..... and the majority agreed that stupid revenue-generating traffic violations are no way to serve or to protect the community.

It is no longer whether you drive cautiously and be responsible on the road - it is now whether you are unlucky to be near a bad cop who needed to satisfy a quota. Just remember that your tax dollars pay their salaries, so in essence, you're paying them to sit there and screw you and others over. The next time there is a call for more money for the police in your town - Just Vote No! Let them do some downsizing and put traffic cops to work on more pressing crimes.
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Jh0
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Username: Jh0

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You won this case Irvine, Gnome pointed out a picture (google knows all) that proves your case, but find out if the light changes to blinking red after a certain hour between 10pm and 2am. What time did you get pulled over at?
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Rsa
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Username: Rsa

Post Number: 1409
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you should go. i wouldn't recommend arguing against the cop's position (it'll just lead to the battle of who's word is true, as mentioned above). but there are other outcomes. there's a possibility that the cop won't show and your case will get thrown out. or, if you have had a clean driving record for at least 5 years, they can put you on probation. you may still have to pay the fine, but it'll at least get you away from the points and clean up your record.
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Neilr
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Username: Neilr

Post Number: 656
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By all means go to court. If I may offer a suggestion: when you go, park in a lot. Don't park at a meter. It'll run out long before you're finished and you'll only have another ticket to deal with. :-)
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Htpscott82
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Username: Htpscott82

Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't seen that light blinking red in a long time. It used to when they first made Brush a two-way street north of 75, but now it is working normal. I'm quite sure I saw it normal about a week or two ago at about 1am.
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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 128
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Combat the ticket, there is little chance the officer will even show up to court.
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Downriviera
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Username: Downriviera

Post Number: 16
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They can no longer offer the "under advisement" option. i found this out when I fought a speeding ticket last fall. The judge said he was disappointed that he could no longer take cases under advisement because he thought it was a good way to assure that he could make you drive safer for at least 6 months. In my case they wanted me for DUI, I blew clean so they gave me a bogus speeding ticket, judge let me go. But for sure fight it, like others have stated, real good chance officer won't show.
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Terryh
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Username: Terryh

Post Number: 688
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In my case the cop showed up for the first hearing, I paid the fine, but when the cop didnt show for the second hearing to keep the points off the case was dismissed and I recieved a refund! Go to court, but be prepared to wait a long time and be careful where and how you park. You dont want to get ticketed and or towed.
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Norwalk
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Username: Norwalk

Post Number: 212
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's been a while since I got a ticket. At one time you could write a letter stating your innocence. I know because I received a ticket at 7 mile and Gratiot I noticed this option on the back of the ticket and thought what have i got to lose. It worked. I received a letter stating the ticket was waived.
Does anyone know if this is still an option??
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Ron
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Username: Ron

Post Number: 360
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Per instruction from the MI Supreme Court, district court judges can no longer eliminate points. They can only reduce the charge to lesser-included, non-point offenses, such as "impeding traffic." That is what I would ask for if the officer shows.

But go anyways, as noted, there is a good chance the officer won't show.
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Troy
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Username: Troy

Post Number: 214
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Contest it. The majority of the time the officer in Detroit will not show and you will have wasted 4 hours but walked away without points.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 4582
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

if the light is always red, how does anyone legally proceed through it?

I was picturing a bunch of cars backed up there with cobwebbed skeletons behind the wheel. lol
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Russell
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Username: Russell

Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Go to court if you can afford the time off. I got a ticket making a left turn off of rivard onto jefferson. A female detroit cop who looked like she was not yet 21 stopped me for going through a red light. She asked me where I was going and I told her I was going to pick up my sick child from school (which was the truth). She gave me a ticket anyway. I went to court thinking she might not show up, well at the last minute she did. When the Judge asked her what happened, she fumbled around with some paper and said she forgot her notes. The judge promptly dismissed the ticket. When I got on the elevator to leave, another lady in the elevator told me her ticket was dismissed too! Also, even if they do fine you, ask the judge if she/he will take the ticket under advisement and even though you have to pay the fine, you won't get the points. Good Luck.
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Crystal
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Username: Crystal

Post Number: 106
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, definitely go to court. You have nothing to lose by appealing to a magistrate, and everything to gain. Admit responsibility or admit responsibility with explanation, and be courteous and respectful.

See if the ticket can be reduced to a zero point offense, and even better if it can be reduced to a non-moving violation.

Insurance companies do not look at the number of points on your driving record. They look at the violations. Zero driving record points does NOT mean zero insurance points.

How do I know all this, you may ask? Our auto insurance was cancelled last week because one of our boys got a speeding ticket he did not mention, and now has nine insurance points, one over the limit for our insurer.
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 425
Registered: 04-2004
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Definitely fight it. BTW, Does Detroit allow you to schedule a desired time to appear in court?

Here Ann Arbor, I scheduled a time that I knew would be really inconvenient for the cop who probably patrolled late at night, and would be off during the day. It worked. He never appeared.

(Message edited by wolverine on February 18, 2008)
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 1031
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the officer shows up, try to speak with him before your case is called. Point out that you have a clean record and you honestly disagree with him that the light is"always red." Especially if you have evidence to the contrary. Chances are he'll at least agree to reduce the violation to something innocuous. Happens all the time, especially if one goes in with a lawyer who practices in that court most of the the time. The cops generally reduce the charge in those circumstances.

Another thing. The courts want to avoid trials. Demand one. Demand a jury trial; I believe they're still permitted in traffic cases. Most District Courts will schedule you for a "hearing" at which only a prosecutor will be present. The offer is almost always "pay the fine and we'll drop the ticket." It never makes it to the Sec of State's office or your insurance company.

Good luck.
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Otter
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Username: Otter

Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 3:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is my experience with the 36th district court:

About two years ago I got pulled over for running a red light at one of the intersections on Woodward between the Fox and I-75 on a Saturday night. The ticket was deserved - I had just turned right onto Woodward and was looking 2 lights ahead without really realizing it, since those intersections are very closely spaced, so I cruised right through the intervening red light. I realized this about halfway through the intersection. I thought "oh shit', looked around, no crossing traffic (phew) but whaddaya know, there was a cop watching me cruise through.

When he gave me the ticket, he showed me the info on the back about what to do if I wanted to contest it, or plead guilty-with-explanation or pay it.

The ticket was deserved, but I wanted to plead guilty-with-explanation and ask for leniency (I wasn't paying enough attention), so I called the number for the court within the required time frame and asked for a date. The woman on the phone told me I would receive a date in the mail.

That was the last I ever heard of it.

Many months - maybe a year or so - later, I wondered about it. I spent lots of time driving company-owned cars as part of my job and the last thing I wanted to happen was to get pulled over for some minor infraction and discover that my license had been suspended because of this and I never had a clue.

So I called the 36th Dist. court to ask them about the ticket. She asked me for the ticket number, which I did not have with me, so I gave her my name. She told me.....there was nothing with my name in the system. No ticket. Schwah? As far as the court knew at that time, it never existed. I then called SoS to see if there was anything on my record for it....nope, nothing at all on my record (I haven't had a ticket in 7-8 years.)

So, through sheer luck, my ticket disappeared into a black hole. All I did was ask for a date.

You never know what will happen, but it won't hurt to contest it.

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