Discuss Detroit Archives - January 2008 What could this mean For Metro-Airport? Previous Next
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 251
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 9:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought it was the other way around?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02 /19/business/19air.html?_r=1&e x=1361163600&en=834776e465c11e 1b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc= rss&oref=slogin
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Cdwaters
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Username: Cdwaters

Post Number: 18
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 9:25 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Delta said earlier they wouldn't consider any deal without Delta leadership staying intact. Also they have more assets than Northwest.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 1062
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 9:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't image this would hurt Metro too much: one would expect Delta/NWA to move some of Delta's Cincinnati hub operations to Metro.
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Rugbyman
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Username: Rugbyman

Post Number: 242
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 9:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, but Northwest is (marginally) more profitable. Aren't they also further along on their restructuring plan? I thought Delta was still in the midst of a self-imposed reorganization. Maybe I'm just making that up.
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Cdwaters
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Username: Cdwaters

Post Number: 19
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 9:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder if Congress would even approve the deal. One Senator brought up the fact that there was a reason the airline were deregulated, and the mergers that are in the works between several airlines fly in the face of that. Regardless, I don't see Metro being hurt as it seems to be a prize in the deal, but I bet airfares will rise flying in and out of Metro.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 584
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 9:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

cdwaters,

wouldn't more flights in and out of metro help lower the price or at least keep them stable? I always thought that was one of the supposed advantages of having a hub.
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Cdwaters
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Username: Cdwaters

Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think they will rise as there is less competition. 4 major airlines have the potential to become two very shortly.

(Message edited by cdwaters on February 19, 2008)
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 1063
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

An interesting Q and A (all speculation). Note the end of the article that states Detroit will be promised growth while Cincinnati will be vulnerable.

http://www.twincities.com/busi ness/ci_8298767
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Spartacus
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Username: Spartacus

Post Number: 288
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There have been numerous articles about this in the Freep and News. The consensus seems to be that Metro would get more flights. It is likely that some flights that currently go through Memphis and/or Cincy would be moved to Detroit.

Detroit is poised for growth because it is a world class airport with a lot of excess capacity. Atlanta, on the other hand, does not have much, if any, excess capacity.

BTW, the advantage of having a hub is not generally lower fares, rather it is the ability to fly a large number of places non-stop.
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Cdwaters
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Username: Cdwaters

Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spartacus, this is unrelated except to show your point. I saw an advertised special to fly from Philadelphia to London for $600 flying Northwest. There was a layover in Detroit. I looked up flights from Detroit to London expecting a cheaper fare but found the cheapest flight was $300 more.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 1064
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Longer haul direct flights tend to be more expensive than itineraries involving layovers (or multiple layovers). This is not always the case with short haul flights. Essentially you pay for the convenience of flying direct (which saves time, etc.).
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2707
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^From a strategic position, it seems like a no-brainer that Detroit and Atlanta would benefit the most from the merger. Detroit and Atlanta would by far service the largest metropolitan regions. Behind Atlanta, DTW would be the largest airport hub involved in the deal.

Detroit has a strategic location, being within 1.5 hours traveling time for 5 of the top 11 metro areas in the country (plus Toronto). It is probably this reason that DTW became Northwest's primary hub in the first place.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 1065
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:47 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Two examples of the above:

Recently, I flew from Ottawa to Seoul. I flew United which involved flying from Ottawa to Chicago, Chicago to Tokyo, and Tokyo to Seoul. It was about 33% cheaper to take that option than to fly Korean Air from Ottawa to Chicago and then Chicago to Seoul (Ottawa is a bad example due to its lack of direct flights to major destinations).

A few years ago I flew from Toronto to Mexico City thru Detroit on NWA (I was living in London, ON at the time but my family is from Windsor). When I realized that I would be connecting in Detroit I asked if I could fly direct from Detroit to Mexico City. NWA told me that it would cost an extra $200 USD. I then inquired why they wanted to charge me more for flying less (never got a straight answer on that one).
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 6559
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 11:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I recently flew Air Canada from Detroit to London Heathrow via Toronto. It was $500 r/t while to drive to Toronto and fly direct it was about $750.

However the extra was probably worth it, on the way back they cancelled the Toronto-Detroit flight and we went Heathrow-Toronto-Chicago O'Hare-Detroit.

Everything was awesome until we got to ORD and our codeshare flight on United. Needless to say we got home about 6 hours later than the original itinerary that was LHR-YYZ-DTW. Not to mention the hassle of dealing with US Customs...
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 1066
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 11:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aiw, Air Canada could not squeeze you on a Toronto-Windsor flight on the way back?

That being said, the greatest disadvantage to flying indirect is the potential delays at each airport (weather, cancelled flights, lack of flight crew). Of course, every plane change also increases the chances that your luggage will be lost!
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Cdwaters
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Username: Cdwaters

Post Number: 22
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 1:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/1 9/news/companies/northwest_del ta_merger/index.htm?postversio n=2008021909

Regarding how the deal is likely to cause ticket prices to rise.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 10111
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 2:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UiO, no because Air Canada blows. As far as flyingis concerned in this day and age it is still archaic with all of the nonesense costs and BS.
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 1067
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 4:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But, Goat those Aeroplan miles are so addictive!

If Delta and NWA do merge, it should produce a stronger airline. It should also produce cheaper Detroit-Atlanta flights (to help fuel the exodus of Michiganders...).

The real competition will continue to be from the discount airline sector, i.e. the Jet Blues and the Southwests. The days of multiple "flag" carriers are over in almost ever country but the United States.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 1077
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 1:58 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You pay more for a direct flight, obviously.

The rebuilt DTW is a Godsend. Possibly the single greatest (or at least smartest) public work devised by our local government in the history of the city.

I think we will clean up and here's why: NWA has Asia, Delta has South America and we are smack dab on the route between South America and Asia. If Wayne County can avoid screwing this up, I think DTW could emerge has a major international gateway, which would be FABULOUS for our city.

Who cares about our airfares for our pleasure travel. Much more important matters are at stake. The hub means we have a shitload of connecting flights and this provides an industry to employ tens of thousands of our people. Plus, we have a shitload of direct flights for the business traveller, and this makes the region a logistically attractive hub for corporations, employing more tens of thousands of people.

Don't look at it like a consumer, look at it from an economic development perspective. If want to go see your mom in Florida, take the Greyhound bus and don't worry about airline market concentration. Or take Southwest and make a connection in Chicago.

This merger is good, good, good for creating jobs in our region.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 586
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 8:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not to mention that making it a major international hub with LOTS of direct flights from all over the world could help the convention business.
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Malcovemagnesia
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Username: Malcovemagnesia

Post Number: 63
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 10:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do a lot of flying for my work and, as an ex-Detroiter who flies through DTW often, hold one of Northwest's super duper frequent flyer cards (Platinuminuminum). Over on another bulletin board I frequent, FlyerTalk.com, most frequent flyers seem very dubious / skeptical about the benefits of any merger (and also mostly resigned to the fact it's very likely TO happen).

Thanks to the nicely laid out new terminal and additional space to grow, if needed, DTW should always be a hub airport that people will be flying through and cargo will be ferried through.

What you guys should be worried about is how it's going to impact your wallets. I don't understand how anyone could believe fares are going to go down. That's just not going to happen. Less competition mean consistently higher prices.

Not that I'm against some higher prices... Northwest and Delta should stay separate and if fares need to go up (because of higher fuel costs and their negligence against "hedging" their fuel needs buy purchasing fuel contracts at lower prices), then they should adjust the ticket prices up without playing the surcharge and fee game that they have been flirting with (and airlines over in Europe now regularly whack their customers with).

Bottom line: don't worry about Detroit airport. Detroit will always do okay in this regard. But any merger will harm cities (e.g. Cincinatti's airport), employees (more layoffs), frequent flyers (less benefits) and especially customers (you).
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 5196
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 11:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

" It should also produce cheaper Detroit-Atlanta flights (to help fuel the exodus of Michiganders...)"

at least until they want a glass of water
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 1080
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 1:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Again, I would say rather than piss and moan about paying a few hundred extra dollars on a trip, think of the strategic significance of the airport to the region. This is the priority not our personal finances.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 257
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 10:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agree with the above posters--generally speaking if this is pulled off--it will be a huge boost for the DTW hub--I think the consensus is correct--growth at ATL and DTW, status-quo at MSP and SLC--and the hatchet comes out for CVG and MEM. CVG is a high-cost operation for Delta, and MEM has always suffered from miserable O&D numbers.

I chuckled at the notion of AC bumping some of it's DTW traffic onto a Windsor flight--AC is very adept at "right-sizing" and it's Toronto-Windsor flights of late have been at, near or beyond capacity fairly regularly. Nonetheless I've shared rows on Windsor flights before with disgruntled DTW passengers before who have been squeezed in on stand-by.

As for the line between "legacy" and "low-cost" carriers--it is becoming increasingly blurry. Southwest is a fully unionized airline with a cost structure near or beyond some of the legacy carriers. With the exception of it's waning fuel headging policies it is basically a legacy carrier that only has 737s, doesn't have a premium cabin, doesn't fly internationally and has an outdated steerage boarding/seating system. JetBlue has tied itself to JFK, splurged on Embraer jets that have skewered it's cost structure, fired it's founding CEO and cancelled deliveries of aircraft. Delta/NWA would have impressive clout in terms of it's ability to connect/transport passengers internationally.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5337
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 1:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The travel-expert show on CKLW tonight had a guest who said that MSP would lose big-time. The airline industry expert said that there was only a 5% overlap of flights of both airlines. Therefore, there wouldn't be much savings possible in personnel. But a merged airline only requires one headquarters and only one large maintenance facility. MSP is the ugly sister there.

The bright spot for MSP was that it was spared after all the mergers and acquisitions that came about during the formation of Northwest. This time, however, its luck will probably finally run out.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 258
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 3:09 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernoisyard you are correct in one respect--that is MSP is going to lose the HQ and the associated staff and prestige. I was thinking more in terms of MSP as a hub--I would expect at least the status quo there--for a city of it's size, MSP has always been ridiculously profitable for Northwest--one of the reasons it's made it through the transitions from North Central to Republic to Northwest. It is also far enough away to spare it--it will not suffer the redundancy that STL did when TWA was eaten by American. Physical proximity hurts CVG and MEM--too close to Detroit and Atlanta.

I've only done some surface reading on this possible merger--sure raises some interesting questions with Delta being primarily non-union, though I hear the AFA is fighting to organize there. Also raises some issues with regional affiliations--Delta's--Comair in particular--are a mess.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5339
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 4:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Being an FAA-rated A&P mechanic (although I don't do that sort of thing), I had the fortune to spend an entire night at O'Hare during 1987 at a couple of Delta's facilities. During that time, a few of us mechanics had the free run of the only two planes Delta had parked there overnight after its final international flights for the night came and gone.

We spent a few hours literally crawling into just about every nook and cranny of a Lockheed L-1011 Tristar jumbojet and a much smaller older DC-9 (pre MD-80 version). The cockpit of that DC-9 felt a lot like my C-150F, in that it was very low to the ground, and that plane was very easy to pilot, I'm told. The L-1011, OTOH, was so high off the ground, we entered its underbelly using an elevator device from the ground.

Anyway, what I was getting to is that the Delta line crew seemed quite content for being non-union. They appeared almost as being company men, much unlike the UAW-like Northwest crowd. Northwest personnel had better adapt and can their anti-management attitudes because working for Delta would be like some former UAW workers going into Honda or Toyota territory and trying to push their weight around. Delta has the upper hand...
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2989
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 11:17 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm so used to seeing Northwest airplanes coming into Detroit Metro. Seeing the nameplate change to Delta will take some time getting used to. I have rarely flown Delta (I'm more an American-US Airways-Northwest chick.)I will miss the red and white.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5341
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 11:25 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Delta will save money by not wasting heavy paint for those tail sections. American Airlines knew about those weight and cost penalties decades ago.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom

Post Number: 260
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 11:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernoisyard--Delta paints their fins...they just switched back to their "widget" logo after a brief few years with what looked like a tri-color scraf painted back there. Alas, not seeing the classic red tails proliferate will be strange--remember right after the Republic merger much of the Republic fleet got a tempo paint job--the regular Republic body with a red tail.

I'm surprised you ever came out of that L-1011 alive--or at least didn't spend a couple of days lost in there--those things were over-engineered beasts--fantastic cabin though. I remember the Delta DC-9 fleet from when I was a kid--orange seats and fake wood-panelling on the bulkheads--years later they went to ValuJet still wearing the same interiors.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 5343
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 11:55 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's enough room in the recess under the cockpit floor to live in. That's where much of its wiring is located. It probably even has a pull string for an overhead light bulb.
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Harsensis
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Username: Harsensis

Post Number: 330
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 9:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the merger does go thru I will miss the red tail. It is so easy to spot from the ground and know that you are looking at a Northwest plane. Delta does paint their tails. I'm not big on the red and blue swatch that they have on some of their planes, but their triangle tails look much better. Most of Northwest Asia flights leave from Detroit currently.

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