 
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5272
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 8:02 pm: |    |
Yawn! They're going to leave anyway and leave Detroit with an even bigger white elephant if Cobo is expanded needlessly.
Detroit's premier auto-show days will eventually be over, and a regional show won't cost the taxpayers. The auto show attendance did drop (a tiny bit) again last year, BTW. It had dropped over 107,000 (to 703,000) in the past four years. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1225
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 1:30 am: | |
No the union's are to blame on the hight costs.
Nobody wants to admit it though. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 779
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 6:38 am: | |
Yeti,
Have you even been an exhibitor at Cobo?
Let's say you own a company that supplies embalming fluid and instruments to funeral homes.
Let's say the Michigan Funeral Directors are going to have a convention were they get together and exchange information about industry changes, pending legislation, work shops, etc. It's a small convention, maybe 300 folks, but it does represent the single most concentrated grouping of funeral professionals. As a supplier you would like to be there just to meet a lot of customers at once.
But you need a booth on the convention floor. Anything you can't carry in one hand has to be carried by a stagehand. If you want to plug in a light or a computer, yep, a stagehand needs to plug it in for you.
Well, Yeti, maybe you are an old union guy/gal, maye you fought At The Overpass, and you understand that jobs are important and so is safety. That only union guys can plug in electricity or carry a box of brochures. Fine.
I agree in many ways, being an old union supporter myself.
But you are a small business person. You sell embalming supplies and your entire business comprises your car, an office, an intern to answer the phone, two employees and a rolodex.
At the Lansing Center, or Rock Financial or the Van Andel or even that place in Battle Creek you are not required to have the union guys at your elbow helping you set up, plug in, take down. You and your two employees can carry in your own brouchures. As a small business person, Yeti, that $200 - 300 bucks is going to put braces on your little girls teeth, or just pay for another round of scotches at the hotel bar.
Next year, when the convention is being planned, you are on the Planning Committee, and someone asks, "where should we go this year?".
Yeti, what do you tell 'em?
---
According to Fiacano we need to expand Cobo to accomomdate and modernize the loading dock, plus take care of a few differed maintenance issues. One, to serve the Auto Show and two, to attract smaller shows and conventions. The Michigan Floral Industry, those Funeral guys of yours, the International Adult Lego Fiends, Scientologists for Jesus, and of course ... the ever popular Comic Book Convention featuring Adam West, Tina Louise and June Lockhart and the Beaver.
These are organizations that are comprised of small companies like yours, Yeti, not major corporations. These are the conventions that are being lost to VanAndel or the Lansing Center. These are the groups the expansion of Cobo is suppose to help, but the problem will remain.
Maybe a year ago, the old guy who ran the loading dock passed away. He was lovingly called the Meanest Man in Detroit by those that loved him. By those who didn't love him, he was the first person, and the last person in Detroit, to scream in your ear and blow smoke in your face.
The problem attracting smaller shows to Cobo can pretty well be summed up in the words of the Meanest Man in Detroit, "Who in the fuck told you to park there you stupid cocksucker, move that sonofabitch before I move it up your ass.... oh, yeah, welcome to Detroit, have a nice show." |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 5202
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:34 am: | |
I know from experience that similar situations with set up exist at javitz. i have heard from colleagues that the same is true of chicago as well |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1227
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:12 am: | |
Alan55 - The roads are publicly run and funded from the get go, different animal.
On another thread this was hashed out also, but the cost to renovate is estimated a $600 Mill, which equates to about $650.00 per sq. ft. That is over twice what anything else costs to build. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 781
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:32 am: | |
Novine, from your attached jaunary 14th link the full quote is:
quote:Daddow said Patterson was asked in December to support legislation about Cobo, but nothing has been supplied to the executive's office in writing.
In theory, Daddow supports the tax-free zone as long as Rock Financial Showplace in Novi is included. Granholm supports the creation of tax-free zones and also supports the expansion of Cobo, said Elizabeth Boyd, the governor's press secretary.
From that quote, it is far from clear if that was Daddow's thoughts or speculation by Liz Boyd.
But even if those were Daddow's thought the key words are, "In Theory" as far as I am aware a theory is not "insisting" as you wrote in post#438.
That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5278
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:40 am: | |
quote:On another thread this was hashed out also, but the cost to renovate is estimated a $600 Mill, which equates to about $650.00 per sq. ft. That is over twice what anything else costs to build. Subtract (a) the $200 mil tossed in for paying for the deferred maintenance that only Detroit should pay (Detroit should have paid every year some of that except for the obvious fact is that Detroit is always broke without borrowing more money every year Kilpatrick was mayor) and (b) the walkway. Only then use the remainder for the square-foot basis comparison.
Neither (a) and (b) are needed in this financial package. The (a) component belongs to Detroit alone, and (b) is totally unnecessary. |
Treelock
Member
Username: Treelock
Post Number: 281
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:45 am: | |
Hey Livernoisyard,
Brooks was traveling in India on an investment mission with the Detroit Regional Chamber when Ficano et al. made their announcement at the auto show. He wasn't on vacation.
Just sayin'. Let's be fair here. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5279
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:52 am: | |
quote:Brooks was traveling in India on an investment mission with the Detroit Regional Chamber when Ficano et al. made their announcement at the auto show. He wasn't on vacation. Patterson was interviewed on phone several times during that time. He stated his reasons why he dumped on the plan, and Ficano already knew that. Ficano was the one throwing out the vacation thing, anyways.
Nobody from Oakland County was present at the legislative blowout and photo op with the Canadian, Kilpatrick, and Ficano because OC (i.e., Patterson) was definitely not on board.
A big BTW: Patterson has a deputy for those times when he's not directly available. So, let's cut the crap about being fair... |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 451
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:59 am: | |
Look at this amazing history of Chicago's McCormick Place:
http://www.mccormickplace.com/ about_us/History.html
We need to get a large hotel built with the expansion to help pay for it and aid for future expansions. Detroit should follow the same model that Chicago followed. Each year, there are 75 shows booked at McCormick Place and there is a total economic impact of $3.4 billion. All I have to say is that we are missing out. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5280
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 12:02 pm: | |
Detroit's lousy way of treating its customers is primarily responsible for not landing conventions. Building a larger Cobo is the classic putting lipstick on a pig--Detroit (itself), many of its spokesmen, and its resulting image. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 441
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 12:12 pm: | |
"But even if those were Daddow's thought the key words are, "In Theory" as far as I am aware a theory is not "insisting" as you wrote in post#438. "
How about "must"?
"Daddow added that any sales taxfree zone must be expanded "beyond Cobo Hall to other convention centers in the state as well - and in particular the Rock Financial Showplace in Novi - in order to avoid an unfair competitive advantage in the region garnered by Cobo Hall.""
http://www.theoaklandpress.com /stories/012708/opi_2008012725 2.shtml
"Patterson's office said the language needs to be clear that Rock Financial Showplace in Novi is included in the "sales tax-free" zone concept."
http://64.233.167.104/search?q =cache:-ThiRIARPr4J:www.crains detroit.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti cle%3FAID%3D/20080128/SUB/8012 80326/1033/-/-/lansing-takes-u p-cobo-plan |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 782
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 12:36 pm: | |
quote:"They want the county to commit and then work out the details - a recipe for disaster. We won't do that," said Deputy Oakland County Executive Robert Daddow. "So at this moment we can't support something we haven't seen, and we will be telling the legislators to do likewise."
quote:"The first issue is that we haven't even seen it," he(Daddow) said.
Both quotes from your January links.
From current reports, it seems that once LBP and company actually read the proposal, they have honed their opinions.
Anything current? |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 272
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 6:27 pm: | |
"We need to get a large hotel built with the expansion to help pay for it and aid for future expansions."
On behalf of the owners of the Sheraton, Shelby, Book Caddy, Holiday Inn, Marriott & Courtyard, Casinos, Hilton Garden Inn and Atheneum - we think we have enough rooms for now. |
Yeti
Member
Username: Yeti
Post Number: 45
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 6:33 pm: | |
So why is the Union REQUIRED to provide their services at Cobo. Can Cobo go non-union, if being non-union benifits all the other convention centers? |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1657
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 6:45 pm: | |
"On behalf of the owners of the Sheraton, Shelby, Book Caddy, Holiday Inn, Marriott & Courtyard, Casinos, Hilton Garden Inn and Atheneum - we think we have enough rooms for now."
How could you forget the Motels on the outskirts of the CBD (Comfort Inn, Days Inn, etc.) |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5291
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 7:53 pm: | |
quote:Great! That way, private crooks and cronies will be making lots of money off of a taxpayer resource.
We'll just call that "The Engler Method". Oh? Not if Cobo were sold--at a fair-market price and then run as a business, instead of a public feeding trough funded by taxpayers but raided by crooks and cronies, as now. And that revenue from its sale couldmight be spent wisely by the city. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 442
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 9:58 am: | |
Daniel Howes takes a wrecking ball to the process this morning. I think he makes a good point about LBP. It's pretty clear that Patterson isn't serious about being part of a solution. So cut him out of the process. That means finding a different way to finance the project. But why continue to allow Patterson to sabotage the process when he has no interest in being part of the solution?
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20080222/OPINI ON03/802220345 |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5295
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 10:22 am: | |
Howes also suggested that Kresge and the Detroit Three fill the void left by OC and Macomb--something that could have happened at any time if they so chose, but never did.
Another of Howes suggestions was moving the NAIAS to Chicago and being done with expanding Cobo. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 332
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 10:51 am: | |
quote:We need to get a large hotel built with the expansion to help pay for it and aid for future expansions. Detroit should follow the same model that Chicago followed. Each year, there are 75 shows booked at McCormick Place and there is a total economic impact of $3.4 billion. All I have to say is that we are missing out.
If Cobo hall in it's current size and condition were in Chicago...it would be as fully booked as possible for the venue. The differential is that it's Chicago... not the facility. Build identical facilities with identical cost for participants and the shows will still choose Chicago over Detroit every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
This yearly hand wringing over Cobo needs to stop already. It's pointless. It requires regional cooperation, which will NEVER happen. Detroit won't let a regional authority take over and run the show, and the suburbs won't kick in cash unless they get some say how the place is run. Second verse, same as the first when it comes to infrastructure and systemic problems around here.
Dropping billions into a event center that holds one major event and a couple of minor ones is a waste of money that could be spent on developing mass transit or the countless other problems facing the region. How about trying to make a region that can actually compete with Chicago then worry about attracting more conventions?
Convention centers don't draw the crowds, the crowds come based on what the location has to offer. If that wasn't so, the UAW would have their conventions here instead of Vegas as "COBO Center also boasts one of the largest contiguous exhibit floor space in North America and two adjacent arenas (COBO Arena and Joe Louis Arena)" Why would the UA-fricken-W need to go to Vegas when they have Cobo right down the street? |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 443
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 10:52 am: | |
"Howes also suggested that Kresge and the Detroit Three fill the void left by OC and Macomb--something that could have happened at any time if they so chose, but never did."
I'm sure that Kresge figured that the communities that benefited from the expansion would step up. They were wrong. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 579
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:22 am: | |
For one thing, in Detroit, you're not getting rid of the union at Cobo. It will not happen, so erase that thought from your mind. The politics prevent it.
So, with that off the table, a lot of the reality is that it's not the fact there is a union there, it's the management and/or staff that is inept and the agreement may be poorly written to not allow for the flexibility necessary. We also don't attract the best talent in Detroit because we don't have the steady, challenging work that NY, CHI and SF do.
Mascone center in San Francisco is union - so are most of the major halls - yet it attracts a lot of the big tech conferences. I'd like to see a cost comparison... methinks the combination of poor service and frankly, Detroit's image, is what hurts conventions down here.
I am more inclined now than ever to have a plan that does not have any other players - the governor, the city, and the county - and set aside some money for marketing. I wonder how he'd actually react to that if he's cut out.
The DMCVB is already working hard on the topic as well, and more collaboration with them might be in order (they have a great piece they've done promoting the fact that MENSA chose to have their convention here). There is progress being made, but this issue needs to be resolved to keep that ball rolling.
And yes, I think Kresge, et all may have made the mistake on counting on some sort of regional cooperation before stepping in. Obviously, that is not going to happen. |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 5233
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:43 am: | |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20080222/OPI NION04/802220330
a dem and a rep making sense together. frankly, it shows just how obscenely obstructionist Brooks is |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5297
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:57 am: | |
A MENSA gathering, eh? I missed that item, but I don't read its monthly magazines that thoroughly.
A Web search says that'll be held in 2010, and only some 1800 to 2000 are expected. That's not many people, and obviously there's absolutely no reason to expand Cobo for that small crowd, assuming that Cobo is indeed the venue. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 785
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:57 am: | |
On WDET's Detroit Today, someone proposed turning the Silverdome into the perminate home of the North American International Show.
One of the problems with Cobo is that it will never be big enough to truly compete with the McCormick Center in Chicago. Not unless we expand Cobo over the top of Hart Plaza.
The Silverdome certainly has space. Rehabbing that place would improve Pontiac. Cobo could concentrate on smaller and mid size conventions.
If we are within a nano-second of losing the NAIS due to lack of space, and if Cobo can never be big enough, should we just change the game totally and develop a location dedicated to the NAIS?
I'm sure there a lot of reasons not to do this, ... |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 5283
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:00 pm: | |
Isn't the Silverdome too far away from the airport to be a viable convention center? |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 446
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:04 pm: | |
Some of the commissioners are realizing that more likely than not, in 2008 the balance of power on the OC commission is going to shift to the Democrats. LBP won't have a board full of sycophants willing to do his bidding. He can still be an obstructionist but the rest of the Republicans on the board are going to have to find a way to work with the Democrats if they don't want to be marginalized, as they have done to the Democrats. |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 455
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:04 pm: | |
You all don't understand. There is lots of room to expand Cobo in its current place. Tear down the Joe and the arena and expand there. Then Phase two would be to organize that mumble-jumble of roads and build over more of Jefferson and the Lodge. Phase three would be a new hall surrounding the Joe Louis Arena Parking garage. The garage would be connected to the new exhibit hall. This would bring total sq.footage to at least 2,000,000 sq.ft. After the initial expansion including matienence, the final two phases really would not cost as much. |
Yeti
Member
Username: Yeti
Post Number: 46
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:11 pm: | |
Isn't the Silverdome too far away from the airport to be a viable convention center?
Its only 45 min from Bishop
:-) |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 786
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:15 pm: | |
I hear all the time that our riverfront is occupied by windowless buildings, Cobo being one of those. Does it make sense to continue to commit the sins of the past and build more windowless bunkers that shield the waterfront from the city?
We are just now making progress with the riverwalk, the Dequinder Cut, Tricentenial Park, the new RenCen, etc.
To continue adding on Cobo seems like earrings on a pig.
Flint airport is about 30 minutes from the Silverdome. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5299
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:26 pm: | |
Now the posts are indeed approaching absurdity when one of them suggests tripling the size of Cobo! The current plan to increase its size by some 15% is already running into obstacles. But, to one misguided soul, an increase just under 200%?!
Outside of the NAIAS, there are only a very few middle-sized conventions presently now at Cobo. Somebody's urine needs to be checked and rechecked for hallucinogens if he thinks a 2e6 sq. ft. Cobo is needed or affordable. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1686
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 1:43 pm: | |
There are many more convention being hosted at the Ren Cen Marriott where the costs are much lower. Add in the new hotels with ballrooms being added to downtown and I see many more conventions coming to this than Cobo.
(Message edited by bob on February 22, 2008) |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 275
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 2:28 pm: | |
It would take 3 yrs to build a new arena if announced today, then you could start tearing down the Joe. You could not have an expanded conv ctr for 5-6 yrs. So forget that idea. Cobo Arena, on the other hand, isn't necessary. Adding large windows to the river side of Cobo is a decent, if not ideal, use of riverfront space. This is after all a facility the general public and visitors use.
I think people are forgetting that renovating Cobo is just as important as the added space. We have all these new hotels downtown, along with casinos, and can finally try to attract medium to large conventions but we need a modern facility as well. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 580
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 3:20 pm: | |
I never said they should expand for MENSA - it's just a piece of good news.
To be clear, as of right now, the only reason to expand is NAIAS. There is still plenty of capacity to sell the rest of the year, and I wouldn't mind seeing a few 2000 person conventions a year - well within our hotel capacity and better than the current state of things.
Now, this Silverdome thing is intriguing. Explains a lot if LBP has a competing plan in his back pocket... probably privately funded, too.
We need a link between downtown and the airport - heck, if we don't do anything else we need that to happen - and it will be a competitive advantage for us businesses downtown that we could have people in from out of town and have it be like every other major city.
That would be completely within Wayne County and very doable and a boon to GM, Ford (which would be on the way) and help attract more international companies (which we can do with the right tools). |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6339
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 3:40 pm: | |
OK McCormick Place isn't all in one building... so their space is NOT contiguous. What if Cobo doubled its' space by building the expansion on TOP of the existing hall (if the structure can support the weight)?
What difference would there be if you've got 2 giant halls on top of each other (Cobo), as opposed to separate buildings (McCormick). The difference I could see is "escalators vs. skywalks".
It may (and it may not) be cheaper than ripping out JLA and Cobo Arena and the riverfront ballrooms, and building anew there. They could even cantelever part of the new upper hall over the Riverwalk, for even more space. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5309
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 3:44 pm: | |
So, was there any special reason that American Mensa chose Detroit for its 2010 annual gathering? It'll be in Denver this year. Might that have been a result of identity fraud? Somebody hacked into their IT? Honest mistake?
In any event, its participants are probably marginally smart enough to hop on a SMART 125 to get to Cobo Hall for only $1.50. |
Hamtramike
Member
Username: Hamtramike
Post Number: 484
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 4:31 pm: | |
"So, was there any special reason that American Mensa chose Detroit for its 2010 annual gathering?"
One might hypothesize that after the careful perusal of this forum, a large untapped contingent was identified……but probably not. |
Bits
Member
Username: Bits
Post Number: 19
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 4:37 pm: | |
I'm tired of hearing L Brooks Patterson shoot down all things new. I think he'd be better off running a retirement community in Florida at this point. He's a relic.
Its time for the region to actually start to function as one. An expanded, renovated Cobo, or a new convention center downtown would be a great thing for Detroit's future.
Conventions bring visitors from out of town who now have three casinos, new hotels and a revitalized downtown that they could spend their downtime exploring and spending money.
The AIA has a convention every year with 20,000 architects attending. It would be great to have them here and show off the new stadiums, housing casino's, riverfront, Cranbrook, GM tech center, Lafayette Park, Birmingham, Royal Oak, etc.
If Cobo wasn't such a s___ hole and was more like the newer convention centers in Philly, Chicago, San Diego, Denver, Charlotte, LA, Boston, etc, Detroit would attract conventions. These visitors would go a long way in getting the word out that Detroit is an interesting place. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5313
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 4:52 pm: | |
At $85 (for a dues-paying Mensa member), a 4-day (plus Sunday) annual gathering isn't too bad of a deal, I reckon. But the Denver event includes the Fourth of July holiday period (this year, anyway).
There's no way to attend all their events, though. Some chess master will play 40 games simultaneously (for a minimum of $5 per player). Out of the 1248 signed up so far, nobody from North Dakota or Arkansas has signed yet. |
Hamtramike
Member
Username: Hamtramike
Post Number: 485
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 5:44 pm: | |
I am curious to know how much research has been done to determine what makes a successful convention center. For the most part, it seems like it will be built for one show, or the "build it and they will come" mentality. Maybe consulting with St Louis, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis or some of the other cities trying to fill their convention centers might help.
(Message edited by hamtramike on February 22, 2008) |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 1269
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 6:54 pm: | |
"Oh? Not if Cobo were sold--at a fair-market price and then run as a business, instead of a public feeding trough funded by taxpayers but raided by crooks and cronies,"
Don't delude yourself - let's just look at those "fair" privatizations currently used by the federal government - Haliburton and Blackwater - plenty of crooks and cronies gorging at the public trough there. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5317
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 7:03 pm: | |
Halliburton often gets no-bid contracts because often there were NO other firms to bidon them, period. Clinton also freely contracted during his eight years with Halliburton, too, BTW. That's no secret.
However, there are known crooks and cronies with the city concerning Coho--the unions, the Kilpatricks, etc.--with the taxpayers paying for all the shortages.
Only socialist types like you don't want any private-sector involvement, it seems. Must be against your religion. |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 277
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 8:39 pm: | |
L. Brooks showed for the meeting today. I knew he wasn't such a bad guy after all. |
Titancub
Member
Username: Titancub
Post Number: 108
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 11:13 am: | |
Brooks is trying to protect his tax payers money. If expanding Cobo made sense then it would happen, and the city or Wayne wouldn't need the deep pockets of Oakland. Reality is it clearly does NOT make financial sense and as such Brooks is making sure there isn't a giant sucking sound of money from Oakland to Cobo.
That doens't make him a relic, or old, or obstructionist. It makes him trying to make the best decisions with our money rather then just pour it all away. But then again, smart financial decisions and government rarely go hand in hand. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 450
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 1:08 pm: | |
"Brooks is trying to protect his tax payers money"
That's what he and you say but it doesn't make it true. What taxpayer dollars from OC are on the line here? The only contribution that the Ficano plan asks for is an extension of the hotel and liquor taxes for 7 more years. Neither of those are an obligation of the taxpayers at large in OC. Nor is it an increase over what's already being collected.
You could argue that the businesses that collect those taxes are unduly burdened by that extension. But that only flies if LBP has pledged to stop collecting those taxes once the current authorization expires. Funny but I've never heard LBP make that pledge at all. So this rhetoric is a lot of hot air that's entirely devoid on any basis in reality. |
Detroitstar
Member
Username: Detroitstar
Post Number: 972
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 1:20 pm: | |
Why do I get a more and more unassuring feeling that we are going to lose the NAIAS very soon? All this in-fighting is making congress look like a well oiled machine. |
Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 2984
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 2:16 pm: | |
Although I never liked the man, I actually like Patterson's idea to make the three casinos contribute some of the costs to the Cobo expansion. We all know that money is a major issue here, and they will benefit more from having additional conventions in the area. |
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