 
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 8:57 am: |    |
quote:The attendance figures will continue to drop for the next four or five years. The primary reason is that the Baby Echo from the Baby Boom are now matriculating through middle and high school now. The Echo Boom is not the primary reason for student population losses in the DPS. It's probably not one of the top five reasons. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1308
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 9:05 am: | |
I_M - Yes, it might work, just as long as the Nuns are allowed to beat down anyone who challenges them. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5432
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 9:20 am: | |
Intellectual dropouts start by the third grade. That increasing percentage of kids merely attend class from time to time, do nothing when they do attend, and get suspended up to the maximum number of times annually (usually ten times) before the school districts have to decide whether to expel them for a maximum of 180 days or force their teachers to put up with them until the school districts can play their suspension games again the following years.
Granholm is primarily interested in satisfying her election-campaign donors by jacking up the numbers of "students" so that the school districts get "their" money and the teachers' unions have more "students" so that teachers don't get fired due to their student numbers alone. The number of school-age kids nationally is decreasing due to the Echo Boomers currently matriculating their way through middle and high schools. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1211
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 10:44 am: | |
Shut it down.
Write a voucher check
Sell the land so they can never make that mistake again.
Lefty, the nuns that are left should be able to take the young rascals out with a back hand. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5436
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:08 am: | |
quote:quote:The attendance figures will continue to drop for the next four or five years. The primary reason is that the Baby Echo from the Baby Boom are now matriculating through middle and high schools now.
The Echo Boom is not the primary reason for student population losses in the DPS. It's probably not one of the top five reasons.
A casual read of the first quote states why the (absolute) enrollment numbers nationwide will drop from the current numbers. The primary reasons for the continuing, obvious failures at DPS were even not addressed, but they will never change as long as both Detroit's city government and DPS continue their inept ways.
The omitted part that was not included in the first quotequote:At the same time, their dropout rates are high. mentioned that those now in middle and high schools nationwide are those with high dropout rates. Taken together, that means that both the absolute enrollment and dropout numbers nationwide will continue to fall (but the dropout rates will increase, as the dropout rate rises per year) for the next few years. Nationwide obviously includes DPS.
(Message edited by LivernoisYard on February 29, 2008) |
Gene
Member
Username: Gene
Post Number: 70
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:37 am: | |
May 22, 1964 Ann Arbor the following excerpt is from a speech by given by LBJ.
“We are going to assemble the best thought and broadest knowledge from all over the world to find these answers. I intend to establish working groups to prepare a series of conferences and meetings—on the cities, on natural beauty, on the quality of education, and on other emerging challenges. From these studies, we will begin to set our course toward the Great Society.”
The beginning of the end. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1212
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 5:09 pm: | |
twas.... a very costly game he was allowed to play |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1313
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 9:18 pm: | |
The good ol days, when teachers, not unions and parents ran the classroom. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5444
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 9:30 pm: | |
When I transferred from Marquette University HS in Milwaukee to a suburban public high school for my junior year, the public high was called Brookfield Union-free High School. A second high school opening the next year (only accepted freshman that year) forced a name change to Brookfield Central. |
Rhymeswithrawk
Member
Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 1158
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 4:11 pm: | |
I always tell people that schools, not crime, is the biggest problem in the city. Poor schools tend to lead to crime. No one wants to raise kids in a city where the schools are horrendous. High school dropouts might have been able to get jobs in auto factories, but that was then, this is now... |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 233
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 4:22 pm: | |
Rhymes, I agree with you. I'm no supporter of criminals but when I turn on the news and see some dumb ass caught for some asinine crime I get especially mad. If these fools received a quality education they'd realize it's not worth catching a first degree murder charge to get $300 out of a cash register. They could suit up for Mickey D's for one week, make that much money, then quit and not have to worry about spending the rest of their lives in prison.
*SMH* |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 262
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 3:25 pm: | |
I didn't want to create a new thread to ask this so I'll put it here.
Is there any data about the number of residences in Detroit with internet access? I know the illiteracy rate is high and the drop out rate is high, but I'm curious how many have access to current technology. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5527
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 4:51 pm: | |
If a house doesn't have Internet access, then consider that practically all libraries do...
Even DPS has computer labs, starting at the very lowest grades--like almost all the other schools today. |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1228
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 10:21 pm: | |
The internet in the DPS computer labs rarely works and the computers are so ancient they are worthless. LY have you been in any DPS computer labs lately? I haven't because they aren't functional! |
Tigers2005
Member
Username: Tigers2005
Post Number: 194
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 10:32 pm: | |
What kind of condition are the schools in? I didn't go to school in the city, so I really don't know. In college I did some volunteer work at a middle school and it was in poor condition. I know that there are a few newer schools like CT and Renaissance, but most of the schools I've seen are old and run-down looking. It seems to me that if this is the environment that you have to look forward to going to school in, then it really doesn't make students want to be there. Some of the schools in the suburbs are like palaces. I hate the fact that only the wealthy areas get the nicest schools. I know that they pass millages for these schools, so the taxpayers are paying for them, but the inequity of funding is terrible. I would like to see the state funding distributed to the districts based more on the economics of the district. This way, districts with people who can afford to pay more taxes to fund their schools pay more out of their pocket and more of the state money gets directed to the districts with people who can't afford to pass extra tax millages. I don't know a lot of the details about how all of the funding works, but this is just my idea of one way to help. |
Detroitmaybe
Member
Username: Detroitmaybe
Post Number: 24
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 11:04 pm: | |
These statistics are very disturbing..even if inflated or inaccurate as mentioned, i'm sure that they aren't too far off.
I recently supported a friends nonprofit that required me visiting about 10-12 of the City's high schools including Northern, Pershing, Cody, Cooley, McKenzie, and Mumford, just to name a few. To say the least, in most of the high schools I attended, the conditions were deplorable, and somewhat appalling. The facilities of most schools were poorly maintained, to say the least.
In addition, I observed many unengaged and hopeless teachers, and students...well I don't know where to start! The entire experience was so disheartening.
Point is...a study was recently done by U of M that suggested that Detroit will not experience any significant growth until 2035, and that is based on the critical amount of undereducated residents, and Generation Y aging out of the workforce.
It is crucial at this time in Detroit's history that we began to focus on the education that our youth is receiving because they are the future of the City. If elementary, middle, and high school students are leaving homes that are in deplorable conditions and are living below the poverty level, walking to school in deporable neighborhoods with a significant amount of abandoned homes which have become home to some many mentally challenged that have been forced to live on the streets, and attending schools in deplorable conditions...How do we address this problem?? How do we instill pride and confidence in these youth when they have so little to be proud of??
I cannot understand how the School Board operates on a daily basis with a staff of hundreds, maybe thousands...but, have not addressed the critical quality of education issues facing Detroit students?
There is no way that we will began to attract new residents and grow our tax base if we are not addressing the issues afflicting the Detroit School Board including mismanagement and ineffective leadership (historically... don't know how the new super is doing yet)
If anyone is interested, the next School Board Meeting is March 20 @ 5pm. It will include the Committee on Finance, and after that the Committee on Audit, and the Committee on Academic Achievement, Curriculum Development, etc. I encourage everyone to attend..see first hand what's really going on!
DPS Board of Education is located at:
New Center One, Welcome Center
3031 West Grand Blvd. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5530
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 11:39 pm: | |
DTeach: With all the funding that went and still goes into that rat hole (aka DPS), why is everything there so fucked up? DPS IS DEFINITELY NOT UNDERFUNDED on a per student basis. And DPS clearly measures up very poorly on any reasonable merit or graduation basis.
Where has all that overspending over at DPS gone over the decades? Are there really THAT MANY SCREW-UPS, CROOKS, AND CRONIES AT DPS? (rhetorical question, actually) |
Detroitmaybe
Member
Username: Detroitmaybe
Post Number: 26
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:43 am: | |
Livernoisyard
Where has all that overspending over at DPS gone over the decades? Are there really THAT MANY SCREW-UPS, CROOKS, AND CRONIES AT DPS? (rhetorical question, actually)
LOL!••• already know!•• |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 3:48 pm: | |
None of the cash flow trickles down to the classrooms. I'd just like some friggin books and some more desks. I can live without internet... |
Club_boss
Member
Username: Club_boss
Post Number: 336
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 4:18 pm: | |
Detroit is Not alone.
Indianapolis has a graduation rate of less than 50%, so bad the local NBC affiliate (WTHR) has coined the phrase dropout factories for certain high school.
http://cell.uindy.edu/transfor mingeducation/IPSinitiative.ph p
I wonder how Detroit compares to other major cities (Farmington is not a fair comparison)
I would dare say not so bad, which is so sad. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7185
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 6:02 pm: | |
Detroitmaybe,
There have been many SCREW-UPS, CROOKS, AND CRONIES AT DPS since 1860 from the segregated schools that involved two black lower east side kids who want to attend Duffield Elementary School in 1868 to the major shutdown of 33 more school buildings in 2007. What a terrible way to exploit kids. |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 5269
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 6:51 pm: | |
So, what's your answer to this? |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 7:23 pm: | |
Detroitteacher said: quote:None of the cash flow trickles down to the classrooms. I'd just like some friggin books and some more desks. I can live without internet Great point. Computer labs are a money pit, especially for huge schools. Start with the basics in order to deliver a basically sound education. That is, give kids their own textbooks and make sure the buildings they learn in are painted, landscaped, with roofs that don't leak and with bathrooms that are clean. Computers should be the last thing money is spent on. Well, maybe the second to last thing. The last thing should be all that lifetime free healthcare for everybody from the superintendent to the custodians. |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1230
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 4:29 am: | |
I don't get free healthcare! I want in on THAT plan. I pay a percentage of my healthcare insurance (and it isn't cheap). I do believe that all the older teachers also must pay a percentage now (although they were getting it free up until last year). |
Sumas
Member
Username: Sumas
Post Number: 77
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 8:13 am: | |
Detroitteacher, please battle for the kids. You are the frontline. I do understand that bad administrative policies and lack of schoolroom supplies hinder your ability to be effective. Add to that, the kids left in DPS are underserved by society which includes their parent/s. But one good teacher can affect at least a few good kids to acheive a better life. Try to take it one kid at a time. They all start out as kids with potential. You can't save them all in this screwy system. Don't lose faith. I have no way of knowing on this forum if you are a good or ordinary teacher. The fact that you are on this forum expressing angst shows me you care. Keep caring. |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1231
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 4:31 am: | |
I am trying to keep up a good fight but it's getting more and more difficult. I wanted to do my student teaching for Learning Disabilities or Autism (Special Ed) in my building over the summer (no pay) and my Principal said no! I am highly qualified to teach high school and just need to finish up that one part of my degrees and certification. There are not many folks who are highly qualified in special ed in DPS and even fewer in AI (according to the latest standards)and even fewer for LD and AI secondary ed. One would think that any admin would jump at the chance. He just doesn't want to be bothered with paperwork. We don't have student teachers at all, ever (at least in my building). It's pretty sad because this would benefit the kids. I do inclusion now...I'd just be that more qualified and able to serve a larger population of the kids with the added cert. DPS doesn't allow for teachers to truly better themselves and soar to their true potential...I don't even want to express what this is doing to the students.
(Sorry, just had to vent). |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7190
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 6:15 am: | |
DPS could lose that $39 Million federal grant if the school board doesn't figure out a way to spend that money on educational purposes.
This fall student enrollment will much lower than next year, about 98,000. |
Postbop
Member
Username: Postbop
Post Number: 84
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 7:10 am: | |
Detroitteacher-
You are a crusader; I know you can hang in there and really help some educationally deprived young Detroiters. Is there adequate legal protection for you in case of problems with students?
I teach in a state university, and we walk on pins and needles not to upset students too much. We get reprimanded by administration for complaints, even if they're frivolous, and we have little legal protection if a student decides to sue. We have very little power to discipline.
---
Public school vouchers are bad news.
They rob the public school of funds, increase taxes, and blur the lines of separation of church and state. Many people see it as subsidizing religion. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5548
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 9:33 am: | |
I'm sitting on pins and noodles here trying to decipher the body of the last text message. [I do understand the motivation behind the BS in its signature, though.]quote:I teach in a state university, and we walk on pins and needles not to upset students too much. Just what is it, pray tell, that you're trying to teach at some state university to young adults in a college, academic setting? I get the impression that some state university somewhere is just another extension of a day-care center. Why are those college students so fragile that you choose not to upset them too much? It seems that particular university is some half-way house for emotionally disturbed folk.
But again, because that post was so light on any details, I probably misunderstood it. I thought that college was an institution of higher education. It seems that they're not any longer. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7191
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 10:04 am: | |
Two of my cousins are Special Ed teachers for DPS and they are also crusaders for the learning impaired. They have no plans of leaving DPS or facing its payroll, medical or dental plans and getting educational supplies. They use what they have and teach the AI students some REAL education. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7192
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 10:07 am: | |
The Marching Band of Martin Luther King High School in Detroit's lower east side. are going to Beijing for the 2008 Summer Olympic Games and they need your help of raising $250,000 dollars to get them there and make themselves known for our city to the world. |
Detroitmaybe
Member
Username: Detroitmaybe
Post Number: 31
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 12:46 pm: | |
Danny
$250,000??? Are they performing or something? |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1233
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 7:17 pm: | |
I have no idea about legal representation. I don't worry about being careful around my students. I am respected by them and give them respect. They know who is there for them and who isn't...our principal, on the other hand, hit a kid in the face with a bamboo pole and is being sued. He was in the wrong (he got hit with a snowball and hit the first kid that came running his way). Parents like me, kids like me and other staff like me (at least the staff who are doing what they are supposed to be doing...the others I could care less about). It's all about giving respect to the kids.
I don't understand why a college prof would have to be careful about what they say to students. If a student doesn't like what you have to say, then they don't have to listen. I provide for my kids what they need...do my job, go the extra mile and it pays off (a little too well, I have kids trying to transfer to my classes all the time and then I am overcrowded).
I guess it boils down to...I don't do anything that anyone can sue me for, so I just don't worry about it. |
Postbop
Member
Username: Postbop
Post Number: 88
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 7:23 pm: | |
Livernois- the post was light on details of MYSELF because it wasn't the point of it. My point was to congratulate Detroitteacher and ask a question about legality of being able to discipline students in a rough environment; not grandstand about myself.
Since you seem to have a bone to pick with me, I do consider a great deal of the gen-ed students that I teach on the intellectual and emotional level of special-ed; no offense to special-ed students. The University that I teach at, does not require a minimum SAT or ACT to enroll (which is becoming more common, for $ sake) and this gen-ed class that I teach is notorious for students needing a Fine Arts credit without taking an instrument, choir, or acting class.
I've noticed a trend that students now feel that we OWE them an education instead of them earning it. If we do not cowtie and accommodate them on every level, than they can use teacher evaluations, or contacting administration to punish a teacher for embarrassing them by disciplining them.
For example: I kicked a student out of class for repeated disruptive behavior. He went to the administration and I had to provide a signed and verbal apology.
Universities are deathly afraid of lawsuits and will do whatever it takes to avoid them. In this, students are not stupid; they smell blood.
I am not bitter; most of my students are good, but it only takes a couple to take the wind out of your sails during a lecture class and distract you from teaching the other 158 that you have in class. It's a daunting task.
Liv, you did misunderstand my post; I hope this clears it up for you.
Here are a couple quotes from extra-credit essays given at the end of last semester, when asked what they learned over the semester. I hope you find these as funny as I do.
"This class took my ignorance to a new level of knowledge."
"My sister took this class last semester because she said it was easy. She's pretty stupid so I figured I'd take it too."
"We've had our share of good times and bad times over the semester. By bad times, I mean my tests."
"This class has been great in allowing me to be eduacted."
"You and I both know that I'm going to be jerkin' off here."
"This class really helped me get a grasp on what I have no idea about."
"This brief essay will focus on the last 1/3 of class. The first 2/3 was kind of a blur."
"This class was almost better than I expected."
"Even though I wasn't able to attend class as much as I liked due to illnesses and pretend illnesses..."
"So what did I learn from this class. Not much enough."
"In the begging, it was hard to keep up..." |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5550
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 11:17 pm: | |
Today's kids in Michigan (and to a much lesser extent elsewhere) are such intellectual losers. Yet, it's humorous to listen to local politicians boast about their "abilities" from time to time--like a stuck LP record. Look out when it's "their time" to work or whatever it will be that they will fail at...
The few teachers I know who still teach just hate going to work. But, they're not that far from retiring. A couple I knew in their young to mid 30s quit teaching because both their husbands said that they would divorce them if they had to listen to them bitching all the time about how bad their days were every day.
Both went for Masters in college in addition to their worthless teacher's Masters, which aren't much transferable to the real working world. And they were happy about quitting when I ran into them a few years later.
I don't really care to get on teacher's cases, but face it, Michigan's schools collectively is a big scam and financial drain for the state's taxpayers, and we get precious little in return. Especially in the Tri Counties. Not many school districts turn out educated young adults anymore as they did in the past. Some of the trades cannot even find apprentices any longer because the kids don't care to work or study those trades.
I suppose that you both know how poorly DPS is doing in Michigan's new 11th grade testing program. So many DPS schools have average composite ACT scores in the 13s and 14s and low 15s. That's brain-dead low.
Their averages for almost all of DPS high schools scored far lower than the other public or private schools nearby, so it's not due to the newness of the program. It's just that DPS kids are downright stupid and ignorant, regardless of their motivation. That's got to be really depressing having to "teach" them in the high schools or colleges. |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1234
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 6:06 am: | |
What the hell did I go into teaching for other than to TEACH? My bad, I thought that was what schools are for.
As for your friends, they just didn't pick the right choice for a career. I don't hate my job (I hate parts of it that negatively impact the kids). I enjoy going to work, look forward to the discussions I have with my students about the readings, lessons, etc. Your blanket statement that DPS kids are stupid and ignorant make you sound like a racist jackass. I have some extremely bright kids who have some crappy teachers and a pitiful home life. That doesn't make them stupid or ignorant, it makes them a victim of circumstance. They can't do much about it, they are kids. They can't get much homework done when they have no lights on at the house or they have to work to contribute to the family.
LY, at times your posts sound ignorant and stupid...should we all assume that you are? Just because a kid doesn't score a 30 on the ACT doesn't make them any less capable, it just means that they didn't score a 30 on the ACT.
I'll stand up for my students at any point that someone says that they are stupid and ignorant. Isn't that what was said about slaves? Get a real life.... |
Yelloweyes
Member
Username: Yelloweyes
Post Number: 210
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 3:56 pm: | |
"The internet in the DPS computer labs rarely works and the computers are so ancient they are worthless. LY have you been in any DPS computer labs lately? I haven't because they aren't functional!"
The computer lab at my DPS school is fantastic, probably better then most suburbs. |
Yelloweyes
Member
Username: Yelloweyes
Post Number: 211
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 4:04 pm: | |
About teachers moving to another career...
When they were 20 they chose a career that they thought they would enjoy, and by 30 they were "burned out". This happens in every profession. This just proves that teaching is not an easy profession, and those who say it is easy are crazy.
DT: don't get in argument with LY, he/she just likes the attention...you know like the kid in your classroom who is always acting out. |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1235
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 4:24 pm: | |
Yellow...are you at a high school? If so, enjoy your labs. I hear that most HS labs in DPS are non functional. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 1061
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 5:44 pm: | |
LY said: quote:Some of the trades cannot even find apprentices any longer because the kids don't care to work or study those trades. This is urban (construction trade) legend. There are no skilled trades shortages because kids today are lazy and don't want to work as hard as LY did when he could still claim to have a semblance of youth. The shortages, at least in Michigan and other stagnant economy states, exist because the construction work is not steady enough for those with little or no seniority. It's hard to convince people to commit to four year apprentice programs that don't pay very well (or not at all when you keep getting laid off). The only people who can afford to enter apprentice programs these days are older thirtysomethings who may have saved some money from another job and can handle the (temporarily) low apprentice wages and the inevitable layoffs. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5553
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 6:21 pm: | |
DT: If you are trying to justify a pitiful 14 or 15 ACT Composite score from DPS high schools, then you go right ahead...
The DPS high schools typically have their individual averages in the 14s or so. And those extremely lousy DPS scores are from schools where about the worst seventy percent have already dropped out. So, those poor DPS scores are from the cream of DPS's crop.
A listing of last year's MME/ACTs follows. The top block are those schools in DPS and the bottom block of schools are for the private schools in or near Detroit. Even the highest schools in DPS are typically pedestrian elsewhere. Nothing really praiseworthy--even for those few...
This presents about the best reason I can put forth for allowing school-choice vouchers. But just about anything else is better than submitting a kid to the child abuse involved in compelling attendance at DPS schools.
Average 2007 11th grade ACTs (by individual high schools)
14.2—Detroit Academy of Arts and Science
19.8—Cass Technical
14.3—Central
15.1—Chadsey
14.4—Cody
17.4—Communication and Media Arts
13.9—Cooley
15.1—Crockett
13.1—Crossman Alternative
16.8—Davis Aerospace
14.0—Denby
14.1—Detroit City
16.3—Detroit School of Arts
13.6—Douglass Academy
15.3—Ferguson Academy for Young Women
14.2—Finney
14.5—Ford
13.6—Kettering
14.1—Mackenzie
15.4—Millennium
14.8—Mumford
14.5—Murray-Wright
14.5—Northern
14.3—Northwestern
14.4—Osborn
14.1—Pershing
14.6—Redford
21.7—Renaissance
14.9—Southeastern
14.8—Southwestern
13.6—Trombley Alternative
13.2—West side Academy Alternative Ed
15.4—Western International
14.6—Loyola
24.6—University of Detroit Jesuit
23.2—Mercy
23.2—Divine Child
22.2—Regina
27.9—Cranbrook
20.2—Beth Jacob
25.0—Brother Rice
27.1—Detroit Country Day
16.6—Eton Academy
24.2—Marian
25.4—Roeper City and Country
25.9—University-Liggett
22.8—Ladywood
21.5—Inner City Baptist
24.6—Detroit Catholic Central
23.0—Plymouth Christian Academy
17.7—Auburn Hills Christian
24.1—Oakland Christian
22.7—Gabriel Richard Catholic
21.4—Washtenaw Christian academy
22.8—Shrine
20.7—Calvary Christian Academy
24.1—Southfield Christian
20.5—Baptist Park
17.0—Peterson-Warren
23.9—Bethany Christian
22.5—Lutheran High-North
19.3—Parkway Christian
24.9—Frankel Jewish Academy
20.7—Immaculate Conception-Ukrainian
22.5—Macomb Christian
21.7—Agape Christian Academy
19.3—Huron Valley Lutheran
22.4—Lutheran-Westland
22.3—Saint Mary's Preparatory |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 7937
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 9:00 pm: | |
Thank god for LY, otherwise we might have thought there were intelligent people still being produced after 1962.
Amazing, how all those "stupid" people continue to make new discoveries about our world despite the "dumbing down" of our society. |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1236
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 5:56 am: | |
I'd like to know what a test score has to do with anything. I work with these kids everyday and their test scores are not a reflection on them, as people. Some are hard working, some aren't. Some test well, most don't. When was the last time anyone stopped someone on the street and asked them to solve a complex equation? I have some of the most creative kids who, when given an opportunity to show their understanding of something, will design and create the most wonderful projects. In our project based society, this is an important skill to have. In my many years of college classes, most of them are project based. Many jobs are now project based.
If you need proof, come look at our showcases near the office. We have student work on display...and it impresses nearly everyone who walks through our school. Test scores mean nothing other than whether the kid knows how to take a test. |
Gene
Member
Username: Gene
Post Number: 90
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 8:47 am: | |
quote:
Test scores mean nothing other than whether the kid knows how to take a test.
How many tests did you take and were required to pass; ie, demonstrate your knowledge of a subject in your journey from grade school to middle school to high school to college and back to the classroom?
Tests do mean something in the real world,the above statement is a demonstration of why our young people cannot compete in todays global economy. It certainly reinforces the cause for a failed educational system in this country.
Many jobs are now project based. Projects are graded. Code word for test. |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1238
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 9:13 am: | |
Other than for entry into a job, when was the last time you actually had to take a "test" (paper and pen/bubble sheet, whatever) at your place of employment? |
Gene
Member
Username: Gene
Post Number: 91
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 9:54 am: | |
Two weeks ago. State mandated storm water and soil erosion class and test. 70% or better to pass.
Many engineering, construction and technical careers require ongoing certifications that require the demonstration of knowledge via a test.
The state even requires residential builders, plumbers, mechanics, real estate sales people, and so on to demonstrate the knowledge of a subject by taking and passing a test.
I would not want to get on an airplane with a pilot and crew that did not take and pass a test to fly the plane.
Just got my motorcycle license, guess what another test.
I could go on, point is that in the real world tests are a part of life. |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1239
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 10:02 am: | |
I'm asking when the last time, after you secured employment, did you have to take a test? A pen and paper test...you motorcycle license, DL, mechanics, builders, etc are on topics that interest the person taking the test. Therefore, they would do better because the subject area interests them.
I am horrible in science. It doesn't interest me, and if I were asked to take a test on science, I probably wouldn't do as well as I could if the subject interested me. I did pass the science portion of my teacher cert test, and aced it on the ACT but I have no idea how I managed it.
You really didn't answer the question as to when, after securing employment, you had to take a test. Many of us have to complete project based work, but I don't know of a job where the outcome (product) is to sore well on a test. |
Gene
Member
Username: Gene
Post Number: 92
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 10:06 am: | |
First sentence of my post. I will repost it below for you.
quote:
Two weeks ago. State mandated storm water and soil erosion class and test. 70% or better to pass.
On going certification test. Need this to remain employed.
Perhaps an annual certification test for teachers could solve some of the problems our educational system is facing.
(Message edited by gene on March 21, 2008) |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1240
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 10:30 am: | |
Teachers must keep their certification and take classes on a regular basis (not CEUs, we have to take actual classes). The way your first sentence sounded, as it related to the rest of your post, it made it seem as if that test was to GET certification, not continue it. Again, the topic probably interested you, based on your chosen field.
How well would you do on the MME? My guess is not all that great since many adult, professionals(not teachers) who took the test, as part of some initiative, didn't score much higher than the average high schooler. |
Gene
Member
Username: Gene
Post Number: 93
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 10:44 am: | |
Tests like the MME (former MEAP) are a large part of the problem, teachers like yourself have become proctors for these tests that waste a great deal of classroom time prepping for a good score so the school can hang a banner or boast about test scores on the sign in front of the school.
You are correct in that ones interest in a subject relates to a test score, however in the real world I encounter assignments that do not interest me but am still required to complete, so buck up.
Teaching, is a noble profession and I admire folks like yourself, testing for real life situations and basic knowledge is still necessary. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 1063
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 12:38 pm: | |
Certainly tests like the MME are not a complete measure of how well students in a particular district or school are learning. But it can't be denied that they should be given some kind of substantial weight. Yes, cultural factors, socio-economic factors and test-taking skills unfairly skew achievement results. But at a certain point those factors cannot be relied on to justify the level at which DPS is scoring.
A DYes thread several months ago pointed out last year's MME results on the internet. If you exclude scores from Cass, Renaissance and King, you can count on two hands the number of DPS juniors out of over 3500 in the entire district that "exceeded Michigan standards" in the math, science and reading categories. A district of the same size performing only at the state average level would have produced about 175 students that "exeeded Michigan standards." Even the three elite schools only add in about 70 additional students. Achievement at this level is just not right. The DPS bears some, but nowhere close to all of the responsibility for these results. |
Detroitteacher
Member
Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 1241
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 2:36 pm: | |
I can ony do so much with what parents send me. They are sending their best and I am giving it my best...but teachers can not be blamed for dismal scores. The district can, however, bear some of the responsibility. With 50+ kids in classes and virtually no textbooks, no supplemental reading material, and crappy facilities who can expect a kid to do well on a test? This year, during the test, the heat was on full blast in some rooms and not on in others. Everyone was miserable. This does not make for a wonderful testing situation. Kids come in while they are sick, just to test. My point is that testing is not and should not be the end all for evaluating kids. |
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