Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986
Post Number: 450 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 11:56 am: | |
I spent the last few weeks in Cleveland as part of my cross country trek working on the Obama campaign and have to say that there is much to be impressed by. Firstly, the rapid transit line seems adequate, while a similar model would be a great start for Detroit and secondly, there is good density in many of the neighborhoods. However, the one thing I was most impressed by was the presence of Key Tower. Though many may write this off as petty, the height and stature of this building really set the tone for the skyline and suggested this was a major city. That leads into the purpose of this post. If Dan Gilbert is serious about making a major splash, why not consider a tower on par with Key, which I found out was 57 stories at a height of 947 feet. How feasible is it that Gilbert would consider this, considering the Key Tower has 1.5 Million square feet of office space. How much office space would he need for all his business ventures? |
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1727 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 12:29 pm: | |
Oh boy... |
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1725 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 12:30 pm: | |
Here we go again... (Message edited by detroitrise on March 08, 2008) |
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu
Post Number: 435 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 1:08 pm: | |
I also agree that Key Tower in Cleveland is a major downtown skyline piece and is very aesthetically pleasing. I'll actually be down there next weekend so I can get a better look. As to whether Quicken would build a structure like that, I couldn't say. When was Key Tower built, anyways? |
Wschnitt Member Username: Wschnitt
Post Number: 68 Registered: 07-2007
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 1:21 pm: | |
Key Tower was completed in 1991. I think that better than a large tower would be the development of the Statler Block, the Hudson's Block and the Broadway Z and the last building, perhaps the Whitney Building. This would have much more impact. |
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field
Post Number: 872 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 1:57 pm: | |
yeah, let's focus on street level activity, density, occupying vacant structures, etc. That will make a stronger statement by itself than a trophy tower. Although i love the impact of the Key Tower on Cleveland's skyline, it definitely says: "you've arrived" |
Gistok Member Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6435 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 2:06 pm: | |
Quinn's Photoshop "Quiggen Tower" on the Statler block comes in at 60 stories...
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Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1726 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 2:07 pm: | |
Someone forgot to mention this, Key Tower built such a huge tower because it's a bigger company with nearly 20,000 employees in 13 states. Quicken is nowhere near that size. The demand for such a huge tower just isn't there. What they could do is make another One Detroit Tower. Then they could lease out the excess space (if there's any) to law firms or smaller businesses. (Message edited by detroitrise on March 08, 2008) |
Danindc Member Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3986 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 2:26 pm: | |
One would really have to consider Detroit's current office market. Bear in mind the effects that the Renaissance Center had on the local market when it opened in the late 1970s. Cleveland's office space has been fairly depressed in recent years, even with 140,000 employees in the CBD. As we've seen in Detroit, low lease rates can really inhibit development elsewhere, because projects are simply not financially feasible. The "postcard shot" should be the last goal of a new building. One can look at cities with impressive skyscrapers like Houston, Charlotte and Atlanta, and compare to the level of activity at the street level. On the other hand, you could consider places like Paris or DC (or even Boston) that remain low-rise, yet have higher densities than any of the above, and the levels of activity that result from it. And of course, since we're talking about Detroit, let's not neglect considerations for automobile storage. |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2815 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 2:46 pm: | |
Well, the Renaissance Center isn't a fair comparison because it's so large. The World Trade Center in New York had a similar impact on lower Manhattan's office market, as the Ren Cen on downtown Detroit's. WTC: 8.6 million sq ft Ren Cen: 5.5 million sq ft (3.8 million sq ft outside of the hotel) Detroit already has a good "postcard" skyline and doesn't need a super tower. Something along the lines of Comerica Tower would be enough. |
Whittier70 Member Username: Whittier70
Post Number: 60 Registered: 02-2008
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 2:49 pm: | |
they could even put an atm at the front door. |
The_nerd Member Username: The_nerd
Post Number: 451 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 3:45 pm: | |
Key Tower is simply Cleveland's version of Comerica Tower and vice versa. I'm not talking about design (postmoden), but function. Both Comerica and Key are bank towers, but both serve as the highest class A office space for professional firms looking to impress. Key has presence at Key Tower, but its the base many of Cleveland's most elite law firms (Squire, Sanders, & Dempsey; Thompson Hine; Frantz Ward), likewise Comerica Tower houses Dickenson Wright; Foley; and a few other major professional firms. I would think that a building that would be too large for Quicken's use would cause many of those "elite" firms to seek the newest and best; thus depressing lease rates for Comerica and the rest of the CBD. |
L_b_patterson Member Username: L_b_patterson
Post Number: 339 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 4:10 pm: | |
Detroitrise, false logic. Key Bank barely takes up more than 25% of the building. |
Fastcarsfreedom Member Username: Fastcarsfreedom
Post Number: 271 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 4:42 pm: | |
Well--Key Tower was the work of Pleli--the king of post-moderism in the 80s and 90s. It actually began life as Society Center--HQ for Society Bank--a smaller bank which Key acquired 1994 electing to keep Society's headquarters. According to Wikipedia, at the time Society Center was being planned, an even taller skyscraper was proposed as the headquarters for another bank, Ameritrust--it was to be built on Public Square also. Nonetheless, Society acquired Ameritrust and scuttled the plans. |
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313
Post Number: 618 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 6:06 pm: | |
I'm not impressed with a supertall office building. I would love to see Detroit build a 100 story apartment tower along the river....or in midtown. imagine the views <313> |
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1728 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 6:13 pm: | |
"I'm not impressed with a supertall office building. I would love to see Detroit build a 100 story apartment tower along the river....or in midtown. imagine the views" No, it would be completely out of place. You need to start small and build up so everything is balanced. Unfortunately, Detroit would have to start at 50 stories (10-25 stories in Midtown). |
Apbest Member Username: Apbest
Post Number: 671 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 9:04 pm: | |
One thing we're forgetting, in terms of a large towers effect on the overall downtown office market, is comparative square footage. The Key tower is 1.5million sq feet. Compuware, by comparison, is about 1 million I believe. Granted, that's a relatively large difference, but Compuware didn't have a large affect on the office market. That's just an example of how far 1 million square feet will get you. Height is all a matter of design and parcel size. If you design the building right, it can make a substantial impact on the skyline vertically and on the street level without taking up a vacuum-like amount of square footage. With the market downtown growing I don't see as bad of an effect as the Ren-Cen. Granted, that's not very economical, which is a separate issue. (Message edited by Apbest on March 08, 2008) (Message edited by Apbest on March 08, 2008) |
Detx Member Username: Detx
Post Number: 110 Registered: 07-2007
| Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 11:35 pm: | |
I think Danindc has a great point. I hope Mr. Gilbert realizes what an incredible chance he has to change the culture of downtown Detroit and goes low rise, high density. Go low rise, high density! We should print up some t-shirts, lolz... |
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw
Post Number: 493 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 12:13 am: | |
Fastcarsfreedom, and Comerica Tower was designed by Philip Johnson (and John Burgee). |
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1730 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 10:10 am: | |
Why can't we have high rise, high density? |
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1731 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 10:11 am: | |
Why can't we have high rise, high density? I'm sure Quicken wants their name and tower to be known in the skyline (like Comerica and DTE). |
Chow Member Username: Chow
Post Number: 454 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 11:26 am: | |
Gunnar Birkerts once said that if the Rencen had been built horizontally it would have saved Detroit. I think he's right. Think about if the collective office space was spread out between twenty 15 story buildings or ten twenty story buildings throughout downtown, rather than contained in a self sufficient city within the city. The ego of tall buildings is alluring, but tall towers do little at street level. We need to focus on filling out our downtown and achieving a critical mass of pedestrian and retail activity at street level. |
Detx Member Username: Detx
Post Number: 112 Registered: 07-2007
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 12:24 pm: | |
A city has to have a lot of special factors for high rise, high density. Look at the cities that have that now-- mainly I'm thinking of NYC and Chicago. Detroit isn't even on the same level as these cities. Sure, we could have a new high rise, or several, but in the long run it would add very little density, esp. when compared to low rise development. Detroit needs to start small, rehab it's old building and create on vacant parcels. Get some pedestrians, street level retail and activity, then we can build to the heavens once again! |
Danindc Member Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3988 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 12:39 pm: | |
quote:A city has to have a lot of special factors for high rise, high density. Look at the cities that have that now-- mainly I'm thinking of NYC and Chicago Namely, super-high-density. Manhattan has 1.5 million residents (and many more workers) contained in 24 square miles. Conversely, Paris remains a city of mostly 8-story buildings, and has a population density of 60,000 persons per square mile - roughly the same as Manhattan. Detroit needs to embrace development that contributes to its health. The Renaissance Center type developments that hope to "inspire" are tried-and-failed. Inspiration will never trump economics when creating a vibrant urban environment. Keep it simple. REAL simple. |
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1733 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 12:57 pm: | |
"A city has to have a lot of special factors for high rise, high density. Look at the cities that have that now-- mainly I'm thinking of NYC and Chicago. Detroit isn't even on the same level as these cities. Sure, we could have a new high rise, or several, but in the long run it would add very little density, esp. when compared to low rise development. Detroit needs to start small, rehab it's old building and create on vacant parcels. Get some pedestrians, street level retail and activity, then we can build to the heavens once again!" I tend to disagree somewhat. Detroit has the high rise-high density factor around Capitol/Grand Circus Park back into the Financial District (some think ours is comparble to a 1960s downtown Manhattan). It just needs to be expanded is all and Quicken could certainly get the ball rolling on that. However, I do agree we must crawl before we can walk. (Message edited by detroitrise on March 09, 2008) |
Kslice Member Username: Kslice
Post Number: 278 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 1:30 pm: | |
I would love the new quicken structure to add to the skyline. But, the 2 places they're considering aren't really in a position to make a big skyline impact. The Broderick is barely visible or not seen in most skyline shots. I would love to see something in the scale of the old Statler built though. A good 20 floors or so. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4486 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 6:55 pm: | |
If it's tall enough, it would rise above the skyline and add depth (at least in terms of the appearance from the river). I would love something tall, but it must be mixed use-- only enough office space to take care of Quicken (we don't need any more surplus), and apartments/condos for the rest of the building. |
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 477 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 7:01 pm: | |
Well how about this- 50 Story Quicken Tower- Statler Site, Mixed Use 20 Story Tech Center- Hudson Block, Mixed Use Renovated Lafayette Building- Condos, Retail 24 Story Condos/Parking- Broadway/Library Lots *10 Stories Parking *14 Stories Rentals Those are my dreams of what Dan Gilbert can do. |
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4487 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 7:15 pm: | |
I would take that package, even with the Statler HQ dialed down to 25 stories. My patience with the gaping hole on Woodward/Gratiot is wearing thin. At least the Monroe Block has a plan and a timetable. |
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1737 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 7:21 pm: | |
Rbdetsport, yes I love those plans. To top it off, 2 grand plans for *I-375/Gratiot *Cass/Montcalm |