Discuss Detroit Archives - January 2008 Your new Woodward Rapid Bus route. Your ideas. Previous Next
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 796
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 5:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is just a very rough plan at the moment. But what do you guys think of this Woodward Ave Rapid Bus limited stop bus service.
Do the routes make sense? Do the stops(marked by those blue drops) make sense? Would you add any stops at other major trip generators I might have missed? Your ideas.
Click to see map.

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms? hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=10225 1676755671311847.00044831454f4 96be0eeb&ll=42.415346,-83.0542 37&spn=0.142194,0.374222&z=12
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 5607
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 5:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why would you have that turn off @ 6 mile?
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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 363
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 6:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is really neat!

I like the idea of the Express
Woodward could get backed up.

Why isn't it extended to like Birmingham or Bloomfield (Cranbrook) or even Pontiac.

Either way it is really cool! Thanks!
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Living_in_the_d
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Username: Living_in_the_d

Post Number: 133
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 6:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, Really cool, M.T., Long overdue.
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 797
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 6:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This would be a starter route, that is why it only goes to Royal Oak. This would be like a first phase, of a larger rapid bus route along Woodward, and also a primer to rail based rapid transit.

Do you think a starter route should go to Birmingham right away?

(Message edited by miketoronto on March 12, 2008)
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Evelyn
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Username: Evelyn

Post Number: 171
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 6:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really like this idea. I've ridden rapid ride services in other cities, and they cut down on waits for buses and on the length of the ride. Makes catching transfers easier as well.
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 798
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 7:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And they can get people use to transit before the switch to rail.

Kitchener-Waterloo a small region of half a million an hour and a half west of Toronto started a very simple rapid bus route along their main road. And so far they have divered 15% of car drivers in the corridor onto the bus with this new service. Not a huge increase I know. But it helps, and also keeps current riders users, by offering faster service. And it is being done as a primer to rail based transit. So I feel this could work well on Woodward, and would also gain trust from the public. Right now people don't know route goes where, and also the schedules, etc. But if they know a bus comes every 15min or less, and stops at these certain stops, and is fast, I am sure some will use it.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11438
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 7:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Will some people request that a 'customs' station be installed at the 8/State fair station? :-)
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1170
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 7:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The turn off at 6 mile" is because these are actually two routes: one to UD Mercy and one to Royal Oak TC. If we like, the UD Mercy run could go a bit farther, to Schaefer/Outer Drive, to hit the hospital there, using the route of the Dexter bus (so Jjaba is happy). Stop at Wyoming/Curtis and at the hospital.

Two changes Mike: One, a stop between Grand Blvd and Highland Park. Two, move the Highland Park stop from Davison to Manchester (Woodward/Manchester is a major DDOT/SMART transfer point). Other than that, fabulous.

Anybody here work for SMART? Give this to Ron Ristau. They should implement something like this pronto. I guess the all-City one would be DDOT, so probably can't happen, but is still a great idea.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1172
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 7:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me be specific about "a stop between Grand Blvd and Highland Park": Woodward/Clairmount to facilitate transfers to/from the Clairmount bus which is a big loop service from Fort/Clark on the southwest side to Jefferson and St. Jean on the east side.
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Michigansheik
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Username: Michigansheik

Post Number: 283
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 7:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great idea thanks for illustrating.
Regarding the Woodward Line:
Mack could serve the DMC, eliminating a separate stop.
Wayne State also serves the museums and CCS, a plus.
The stops downtown, RenCen/Hart Plaza/Greektown could all be served by Grand Circus and the People Mover.
I think going to UofD for this is OK for this line too.
In Royal Oak you could do just one stop, it's a pretty walkable place.
Going up to Big Beaver or to Pontiac is a real possibility.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1767
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 7:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Why isn't it extended to like Birmingham or Bloomfield (Cranbrook) or even Pontiac."

I'm not 100% sure about this, but because DDOT is the only one pulling for it.
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Living_in_the_d
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Username: Living_in_the_d

Post Number: 135
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 8:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, long Live D.D.O.T.
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 799
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 9:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am working on a whole report, that I would love to share with DDOT and SMART. But we will see. Just give me a couple more weeks. It is part of my urban planning studies.

Thanks for the ideas on other stops, etc.

(Message edited by miketoronto on March 12, 2008)
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 800
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 9:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh about Birmingham. Like I said, this is just a starter route idea. The route could go further up. If you want I can make it a longer first phase idea. but I think to Royal Oak, would be a good start. Keep the suggestions coming.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1771
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 9:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh wait, does this have anything to do with the report I saw on the news today with DDOT pulling for a light rail up Woodward?

I think it begin in front of the Fox theatre and went northward to somewhere.

(Message edited by detroitrise on March 12, 2008)
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 801
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 10:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No no. I am not a big planner yet. I am just a student :-) These are just my own ideas that I come up with. Has nothing to do with what is actually going on or being announced at the moment :-)
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1173
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 10:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The DDOT study only goes as far as Eight Mile because that is sort of the limit of DDOT's service area in that direction (although until a few years ago DDOT's Woodward bus went as far as the Royal Oak TC and they ran a Zoo shuttle).

Logistically, one line from downtown Detroit to Birmingham/Pontiac or Birmingham/Troy is hard to keep on a schedule; it's too long a line. I know SMART does it every day, but the buses get way off schedule at times. It makes sense to use Royal Oak TC as a transfer point and run buses or trains from there south to Detroit and from there north to Birmingham/Pontiac or Birmingham/Troy. Once we have commuter rail from Pontiac to Detroit, the Birmingham/Pontiac bus is less of a necessity.

Mike, Royal Oak is the first really logical place to have a line end, coming from downtown. Eight Mile (the DTOGS terminus) is not in any way logical, it's just politically expedient.
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Figebornu
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Username: Figebornu

Post Number: 92
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 12:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Too little too late. When will SE Michigan wake up? In Southern California they are planning to spend over 1.5 billion on transit expansion and here in SE Michigan we are excited about an express bus.

Give me a break.
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Hudkina
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Username: Hudkina

Post Number: 137
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 12:55 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If this is BRT, you should really add more stops. In reality they should be about 1/3 to 1/2 mile apart. In some cases you have a stretch of more than 1 mile without a stop.

Also, I think you could extend the McNichols spur to at least Greenfield so you can include Marygrove College, Sinai Grace Hospital, and Renaissance High School. Hell, you could go as far as Lahser and include Wayne County Community College, Redford High School, and Old Redford.

I would have it so that the route follows McNichols from Woodward to the Lodge, travels along the Lodge until it reaches Outer Dr, turns onto Outer Dr and continues until it returns to McNichols, and then takes McNichols all the way to Grand River (Old Redford). The entire stretch is about 8 miles from Woodward to Grand River along that route, and I would have about 16 stops.

There is a population of 70,000 living within 1/2 mile of McNichols between Woodward and Grand River, with about 140,000 living within 1 mile.

(Message edited by hudkina on March 13, 2008)
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Hudkina
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Username: Hudkina

Post Number: 138
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 2:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A possible configuration of stops between Woodward and Grand River:

1. Woodward Ave between Florence St/Geneva St (Palmer Park Apartments)
2. McNichols Rd between Hamilton Ave/Hill St (Golf Club)
3. McNichols Rd between LaSalle Ave/Normandy St (Martin Park?)
4. McNichols Rd between Birchcrest Dr/Oak Dr (University District/UD-Mercy)
5. McNichols Rd between San Juan Dr/Lilac St (Bagley)
6. McNichols Rd between Cherrylawn St/Ohio St (Marygrove)
7. McNichols Rd between Birwood St/Mendota St (???)
8. M-10 Service Dr between Santa Maria St/Sorrento St (???)
9. Outer Dr between Lesure St/Stansbury St (Sinai Grace Hospital)
10. Outer Dr between Hubbell St/Clyde St (Renaissance High School)
11. Outer Dr between Prevost St/Rutherford St (???)
12. Outer Dr between Lindsay St/Oakfield St (Fellowship Chapel/Shopping Center)
13. Outer Dr between M-39/Faust Ave (WCCC Northwestern Campus)
14. Outer Dr between Santa Maria St/McNichols Rd (North Rosedale)
15. McNichols Rd between Kentfield St/Stout St (???)
16. McNichols Rd between Westbrook St/Bentler St (Redford High School)
17. Grand River Ave between Lahser Rd/Redford St (Old Redford)

(Message edited by hudkina on March 13, 2008)
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 12
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 3:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A stop near Chicago, in the Boston Edison Area?
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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 368
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 7:05 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mike, Are you in Urban Planning?

That is what area I am interested in going into at WSU.
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 803
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 10:34 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am an urban planning student yes. First year.

I am trying to educate my professors a little on Detroit, while I am at it. I showed my professor a photo of the Michigan Central Station, and she could not believe it was empty.

Anyway back to WOODWARD RAPID BUS :-)

French, if you want to chat or have any questions, feel free to email me.
michaelb_@hotmail.com
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4019
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 10:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miketoronto, does your proposal include construction of lateral separation (curbs, fences, etc)? If so, this would likely cost just as much as light rail to implement.

When planning the Dulles Corridor Extension in Northern Virginia, local authorities considered BRT as a prelude to rail service, but found ridership would be far lower, and that capital costs would be far greater (since you would have to re-route or eliminate the bus service while converting).

Just want to make sure I understand what you're proposing here.
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 804
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 3:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There would be no special lanes or anything like that. You could paint an HOV lane if you wanted. But other than that, nothing big.

This is really just about starting quality transit in the corridor. Its not meant to be the only improvment, but rather just a start.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 1100
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 8:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It would be great but should go all the way to Birmingham and Somerset.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 1783
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 9:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe SMART could work with DDOT on this...
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Frankg
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Username: Frankg

Post Number: 221
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 9:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why not have it go all the way to Pontiac?
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 813
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 10:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think a starter line just to Royal Oak would be a better test, then going all teh way out to Pontiac at once.
In addition, SMART buses operate frequent service south of Big Beaver. So along with DDOT, it would be easier to try this out on the busier section south of Royal Oak, where both transit systems could work together on this service.
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Hudkina
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Username: Hudkina

Post Number: 139
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 1:57 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think we need light rail (or BRT) all the way to Pontiac. Birmingham is as far north as a line should go. Downtown to 8 Mile along Woodward is about 9 miles. 8 Mile to Birmingham is about 9 miles. Birmingham to Pontiac is about 8 miles.

The Downtown/8 Mile stretch and the 8 Mile/Birmingham stretch have large populations within walking distance, lots of retail and employment, and major institutions along the way. The Birmingham/Pontiac stretch is mostly non-walkable, low-density neighborhoods, there is very little employment, and the number of major institutions can be counted on one finger... In other words, it would be silly to build a line where nearly 1/3 is basically useless. The only walkable area between Birmingham and Pontiac is downtown Pontiac. And that could easily be served by a single commuter rail station with stops in Bloomfield Hills, Birmingham/Troy, Royal Oak, 8 Mile and New Center. It would actually have a direct connection to the light rail (or BRT) in downtown Royal Oak as well as New Center.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1963
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 1:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miketoronto,

I'm sending you an email about your map and this thread. I think it could be cool if somebody where to make a similar one for the DTOGS study proposals. I also have a slightly off-topic question.

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