  401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 319 Registered: 11-2007 |
So the 30 somethings buying all the McMansions with the SUV in exurbia are boomers in disguise? | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 320 Registered: 11-2007 |
So the 30 somethings buying all the McMansions with the SUV in exurbia are boomers in disguise? I think your problem is more with the post-boomers. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 599 Registered: 12-2006 |
John Lodge, I have read that book. It is EXCELLENT and it goes highly in depth into the factors that contributed to the flight of the white middle class and the decline of the city. I realize that what I've written here is a vast oversimplification of the reasons why people left. HOWEVER, if you boil all of it down and analyze it at its most basic form, regardless of the factors that led to their decisions, it was the conscious choice of the white middle class of the baby boomer generation to leave city that led to Detroit's decline. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 600 Registered: 12-2006 |
401don, The 30 somethings probably didn't grow up in the city. Or if they did, their boomer parents moved them out to the burbs while they were still young. I'm a 20 something and that's what happened with my family. | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 268 Registered: 09-2006 |
quote: El_jimbo, have you scolded your father (whose job didn't allow him to move out of the city until 20 years after he did) for his lack of backbone? quote: | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1679 Registered: 08-2007 |
Doesn't every generation think the preceding one was the worst ever? I know in the 60s and 70s, we railed against "the Establishment" and look what's happened, after all that. | ||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 171 Registered: 06-2005 |
I think what Ray is trying to express is a growing angst by the younger generation towards the boomers about the state of Detroit. Don't get me wrong, I understand why they left. Suburbs are cheaper, safer, greener... If I was in their situation, I may have left, too. However, there are times when I just get so angry at all the divestment from the city made during my parents generation, and I see what it's done to the city. Then when I'm downtown with my dad, I listen to him spin woeful yarns about how great Detroit used to be and how sad he is to see it in this state, and I always want to snap "then why didn't you stay and try to make it better!? If you love it so much, why did you leave it to die?" But I can't, because it's not his fault. Everybody was doing it, and it made the most sense. Short-term, anyways. Point is, the previous generations left, and whether you can fault them for it or not, it helped destroy the city. As a young man I see what I'm left with, then I think about what could've been, and there's anger. Btw, can we stop being so sensitive about generalizations if they happen to be true? There's probably 3 million white people in the burbs and 60,000 in the city. Most left. If you didn't, congratulations, you are my hero (seriously). But pointing out the individuals who did stay doesn't change what the overwhelming majority did. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6444 Registered: 08-2004 |
This has to be the most simplistic thread I've seen here in a long time.... As a baby-boomer I brought lots of folks my age back into Detroit back in the late 1980's and 1990's to visit such places as the DIA, Fox Theatre, Orchestra Hall, Belle Isle, etc. Now these same folks are bringing their kids back to Detroit to visit. It was the parents of the baby boomers that started leaving Detroit in droves since the 1950's. Coming back to live here? Again that's another issue. Fix the schools, take care of the crime, and give them 5 minute 911 response time, and you may get people of ALL age groups to move back. But until something is done about those issues, you can blame whom ever you like... the fault is not one particular age group. (Message edited by Gistok on March 11, 2008) | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 601 Registered: 12-2006 |
ffdfd, A valid question which I will answer honestly. Did I scold him for moving out of the city? No I didn't. There are multiple reasons why. 1. By 1982, the damages of white flight were already apparent and were already well along in the process. 2. The introduction of crack to urban areas in the 1980s saw a general rise in overall crime that was far less localized than the '67 riots. Crime was a problem in MANY neighborhoods back then. 3. I will never fault ANY man who has to come home one morning from a 24 hour shift only to hear that his wife scared off two potential robbers from breaking into their home by herself, with a loaded rifle in one hand and his 8 month old son in the other that night from wanting to move out of that neighborhood. ESPECIALLY considering that they had just been robbed the previous year, robbed a year before that, and had their '77 F-150 stolen and chopped the year before that. Also, from 82 to the end of residency, my dad maintained a city address at an apartment on the west side. 4. When I was speaking of the boomers, I should have been more specific. I don't blame the people that left in the late 70s or early 80s. By the time they left, the writing was on the wall. I'm talking about the people that left in the 60s and early 70s when things were more easy to salvage. However, all that being said, there is something I do scold my dad about. That is his generally negative attitude towards the city. I'm not talking about his negative attitude towards city government or fire department administration. That I think he's justified in being negative about. However, he has a pretty negative attitude regarding just about anything going on in the city. Even blatantly positive things like the Riverwalk, Campus Martius or even going to CoPa for a Tiger game (although I have managed to drag him a few times). Perhaps when I called an entire generation cowards I spoke too strongly. However, I will not change my opinion that the boomer generation walked away from the last best chance to save Detroit from the decline it suffered. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4495 Registered: 02-2005 |
The generation that Brokaw declared the "greatest" was also the generation that walked out on cities, especially Detroit. The generation that immediately followed was not much better. That's all I will contribute to this interesting thread. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2008 |
El_jimbo, It wasn't to long ago that I would have agreed with you completely, but my view honestly changed after reading "Made In Detroit" by Paul Clemens (available on Amazon). The book is a memoir from someone who did stay in Detroit. He really does a great job of putting you in that time frame and place. What else can I say, your right. I sometimes wish past generations stayed and payed for their mistakes, but they didn't. It takes a strong person to stay and fight, and majority of people don't appear to be fighters. Let me also say, if you did, you were often viewed as crazy, or (eventually) "lower class or criminal". When I moved to Detroit from the suburbs I had family members and friends who actually stopped talking to me. When I did visit those who still did, I was regularly harassed. I think that "peer pressure" was a huge factor in what happened, and what still continues. That is why current generations are so important. They can be the ones that say "forget what everyone else thinks, I want to live in this city, and make it better, I want to be the solution". Just simply doing that is so important because it allows the ones who are not fighters, the ones who have always been followers, to continue to follow. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 5549 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Some people have kids. When you have kids, you're done being a "fighter" and start being a parent. Parents want good schools and low crime rates. I don't fault them one second for it, either. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 504 Registered: 09-2006 |
All said above is true,The abandonment, the collapse, even the limited revival in certain Downtown areas.. Ofcourse younger generations are angry about prior ones leaving, but they did not experience the rath of the 60s/70s and peoples behavior. Detroit , unlike Chicago (which also experienced some of this at the same time) did not stay tight with their neighborhoods as the citizenry and police did not have a good grasp on containing it. It was allowed to run crazy and subsequently destroy a good portion of the city. Many Chicago neighborhoods ( both citizenry and police) stood very tough against incoming crime and survived and this day, prospered. All we can do now is basically do what some of us are doing, either living or spending and existing in viable areas where we feel safe and more importantly contribute what we can to the city.. There is alot of people of all races doing exactly that and younger generations seem to be embracing it in a way never seen in decades. That quite frankly is our only hope. Now if we can just find responsible leadership the journey will be much easier. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4000 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Pardon me, but that's a bullshit line of reasoning. Plenty of suburbs have terrible school systems, and there are good city schools. Further some of the stupidest people I've ever met have been products of so-called "high-achieving" suburban public school districts. Urban school districts around the country only went to shit after the families who could afford to prioritize education fled for the suburbs. The people who had to worry more about eating and keeping a roof became the only ones left, and the schools went to hell shortly thereafter. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 5551 Registered: 10-2003 |
Depends when you're talking about. Sean started talking about the present, which is what I was referring to. Younger generations, those without kids yet, are the best first line in bringing back the city. They can move there without a lot of baggage. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 5552 Registered: 10-2003 |
Also, Dan, let me know when you enroll your kids in DPS. Perhaps we could ask someone with first hand experience. Meaghansdad, what he thinks. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4002 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: The status quo doesn't justify you deliberately confusing causes and effects. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5487 Registered: 10-2004 |
This thread is loaded with blow-hard nonsense by those who themselves will be packing after they realize that there will be even fewer jobs--good, bad, or ugly--when it's time for them to first enter the job market for a real job. And they won't be able to live in most of the burbs without any money, either. (Message edited by Livernoisyard on March 11, 2008) | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 5553 Registered: 10-2003 |
I said several times one can't oversimplify the causes for this. My post to Sean was not me giving THE reason. Just saying that people like Sean are the ones who are able to move back and revitilize the city. They don't have a wife and kids to consider, no schools to consider, and disposable income to spend around town. Plus younger people tend to be afraid of less, be it justified or just foolishness. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1681 Registered: 08-2007 |
Best of my recollection, through the 70s, the city administration did not favor neighborhoods. There was a continual devolution of the neighborhoods as many houses were abandoned. People who wanted to move couldn't sell them, as property values plummeted, so they just turned the key and left them. HUD took over many many houses, and DSS worked out a plan to promote ownership for ADC moms. Many houses needed work and were never brought up to speed causing further deterioration of housing and devaluing of neighborhoods. ADC moms had no way to maintain their houses, either, as the emergency allowance of $500 was quickly eaten up by any one repair. Anyone who complained or pointed out problems was invited by the Mayor to "Hit Eight Mile." Does any of this sound familiar? We could not deal with the situation any more, abandoned houses, one or two families with sullen combative teens on the block, vandalism, stolen cars being stripped in the alleys, no solutions being offered, and no end in sight. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 7845 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not trying to derail your rant about us evil boomers, but have you considered at all where the jobs were being created in the 50s, 60s, and 70s? I'm not seeing much vitriol about the GM Tech Center or the Tank Plant built in Warren, or the plants in Livonia, Wixom or Wayne etc. Have you considered people left the City for economic reasons as well as fear? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4004 Registered: 10-2003 |
I tend to agree with your last post, Johnlodge. It seems to me that a lot of people like to cite schools as their reason for "moving outward", which isn't necessarily true. I think there are opportunities to turn public schools around, but first, it's going to require establishment of some sort of cohesive community (neighborhood-scale, if that) that can put a priority on education. | ||
Bragaboutme Member Username: Bragaboutme Post Number: 45 Registered: 02-2008 |
well put detroit bill, I also forgot about the crazy idea of (devils night) that accelerated the negative perception of detroit to the suburbs, as well as the nation, and the world for that matter. That is one of the many great things I remember about the Archer Administration (angels night) that has changed many of peoples perception about the city | ||
Flanders_field Member Username: Flanders_field Post Number: 171 Registered: 01-2008 |
Devil's Night began in Detroit loooong before most of the nation found out about it. When I first became aware of it, at age 8, it was 10/30/65. Baby Boomers were not responsible for the outward flight to the suburbs,as the oldest were all of 21 years of age in 1967, and few if any were homeowners. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 614 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think it's almost all economic, Jams - people go where the money is. Whether it's property value or jobs, it all comes down to money. If there had not been the suburbanization of the auto industry, Detroit would not have declined to the degree that it did. I think race played into the economic, though; to this day, it's "common wisdom" (albeit flawed) that if your neighborhood gets minorities, the property value is going to go down. If your house - as some of my family's houses did - loses 10-20% of it's value a year, you're watching your savings evaporate and you have to do something quickly. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 5555 Registered: 10-2003 |
People will go where they believe is best for them. Government coercing of people to do this or do that doesn't seem to accomplish much. Blaming people for doing it does nothing. Complaining about sprawl, which I do all the time, doesn't accomplish anything. The key is to make the location desirable to the people, and make sprawling undesirable. That's the only thing that will change the behavior. That's why we enjoy discussing all the amazing locales in Detroit, all our favorite bars or restaurants or buildings or stores or entertainment venues. Because that is what the suburbs do not have. It didn't take too many generations of suburban living for the latest generation of young people to realize they're bored. Hence the revitilization of Ferndale and Royal Oak and Downtown Detroit, as well as many other cities throughout the nation. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 7846 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thinking a bit about these charges. The growth of this City in the 20th Century was fueled by those that left homes elsewhere to come to Detroit, I could not even begin to count the number of times, I've heard long time residents of the area refer to where they came from as "Back Home". The mobility of the population is ingrained in the history of this Nation, not just this region. Hell, two days after I found out that I was to be the manager of the new branch studio in Northville, I signed the lease for the apartment above the studio to avoid a 30-45 minute drive each day. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 6 Registered: 03-2008 |
I agree with Dan on this one. It would seem like kids should give you an even greater reason to fight, so they don't have to deal with all this. My thinking on raising kids is kind of backward I guess. In my opinion sheltering kids in the suburbs to me, is one of the worst things you can do. Your supposed to be teaching and guiding your kids, I can't imagine a better place to do this than Detroit. A good example is the oil countries of the middle east. The ones that are most advanced, innovative, and free are the ones that were the worst off, they had almost no natural resources (or were the first to run out). On the other hand, the ones that always felt secure by means of oil, are the exact opposite. They didn't learn creativity or change their views because they didn't have to. If you can successfully raise your children in Detroit you could very well end up with kids who can truly feel like they can do anything. Will I feel the same when I'm raising my family in Detroit and someone breaks into my house, or when I have trouble finding a better paying job, or god forbid one of them gets killed? Well those are the true tests and lessons aren't they? That is why how I act will be so important. So many of those suburban kids will continue to run for the border just like there parents. Like I said, I might be backwards with all this. I know kids raised in the city leave too, but maybe their parents were stuck there, and didn't teach them to have pride in their neighborhood and city. Who really knows? I do know that their seems to be a high level of creativity and talent coming out of Detroit, an area that has hardship and few resources. If survival of the fittest is true, and in the real world only the strong survive (or live well at least), then again, can you imagine a better place than this city? Can you imagine a place worse than the sheltered suburbs? A place where cause and effect, and life lessons are constantly hidden? I mean, even those who were given money and new cars seem to eventually lose them. PS: Johnlodge hit the nail on the head with his last post. (Message edited by Sean_Of_Detroit on March 11, 2008) Edited for grammer. (Message edited by Sean_Of_Detroit on March 11, 2008) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6446 Registered: 08-2004 |
Sean, it doesn't sound like you have children of your own... You make raising children sound like Darwin's survival of the fittest. This isn't natural selection here! This is about doing what is best for your family. And if you think that living in the relative safety of a suburb somehow is a disadvantage for kids growing up... then what can I say... If sending your children to a Detroit Public School, where only about 1/2 of the kids graduate from High School will make them better adults... if you don't mind them walking passed empty or crack houses on their way home from school, if you don't mind sending the kids to the neighborhood store to buy items from behind plexiglass... if you don't mind having your children go out to play even though you thought you just heard a few gunshots... ...well then I guess P.T. Barnum was right... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4005 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, Gistok, how do you propose to break the cycle? Do we just encourage the remaining Detroiters with kids to move to the burbs (perhaps using economic incentives that caused people to move to the burbs in the first place)? Do we leave the City of Detroit behind as an empty, hollow, non-functioning shell as a party zone for the empty-nesters and young-folk? All signs in the current political and economic climate point to a need to reestablish functioning cities. You're proposing Escape from Detroit. Sean and Johnlodge, I couldn't agree more with your last posts. I think people of my age are more apt to stay in an urban environment to raise kids. There are quite a few Gen Xers who shun the material excess their parents loved so much during the 80s, and focus more on community and interpersonal relationships. I think it's these people who are the best hope for restoring a bit of order (for lack of a better word) and normalcy to urban environments. We'll see.... On a related note: Vatican Lists New Sinful Behaviors http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING /wayoflife/03/10/vatican.updat es.sins.ap/index.html |
