  Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2007 |
I took the train from Ann Arbor to Detroit a few days ago (I just felt like riding the train to Detroit because I've never do so before). It was a good ride and went fast for the most part from Ann Arbor to Dearborn. 9 minutes from AA to Ypsi, 13 minutes from Ypsi to Westland, 8 minutes from Westland to Dearborn... Then we started going painfully slow until a couple of miles until Detroit's Amtrak station. It took 20 minutes. Does anyone know why the train goes slow there? Is it because of track condition is bad or because there are so many tracks is that area? Just curious. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1183 Registered: 12-2006 |
Track conditions and speed limits. | ||
Flyingj Member Username: Flyingj Post Number: 113 Registered: 08-2006 |
They pad the schedule...a big complaint about Amtrak Look at the timetable, there's always a ludicrous time frame @ the start of every Amtrak trip(something like an hour & a half to go 50 miles-if they've been stuck waiting on connecting trains...) & at the end. If they've had a pretty good run-unlike most Amtrak routes-they're molasses @ the end. Another factor is most major cities regulate rail traffic @ yardspeeds, esp ones with heavy industry-because of the # of sidings, switches, frogs etc-it takes forever to get through Houston on the train for that reason | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4518 Registered: 02-2005 |
It's something I've noticed, too, Ljbad, and it's aggravating because if a consistent pace could be maintained, the train route from A2 would offer even more of a benefit over driving. PScott is correct on the reasons, I believe, and that tells you just how bad our infrastructure is. Heavy rail used for commuter purposes in other parts of the country often travels over 60 mph through urban areas. But this is Michigan, and we are behind. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2069 Registered: 07-2004 |
They don't own the track. In western MI, where they do own the track, they've upgraded signals and go faster. | ||
Hamtragedy Member Username: Hamtragedy Post Number: 126 Registered: 10-2007 |
Consider yourself fortunate to have kept moving. The tracks along John Kronk move fairly quickly. If there's track congestion in the many junctions after that, Amtrak just stops, and sits, and sits, and sits. I find the route itself to be kind of a blast from the past. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5579 Registered: 10-2004 |
There's the **V E R Y** **S L O W** **S P E E D** curve around the former Cadillac plant caused as a direct result of GM forcing the New York Central to sell them the former ROW track by the Clark Street Cadillac plant back during 1945. Because of that, the speed limit of the trains, especially the freights, has to be very slow when they switch from the Canadian National track at CP-Vinewood, a bit north of Michigan, to the Conrail and Norkfolk Southern tracks for going through West Detroit (Junction Street) towards Dearborn. It would be even slower when going through West Detroit if those ancient slip switches were not removed only a few years ago. (Message edited by livernoisyard on March 24, 2008) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1720 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sometimes they are just waiting for a signal. It can be a train that is hundreds of miles away, but it usually is a signal. I love the segment that Amtrak owns from Kalamazoo to Niles where they upgraded the signals and the trains can go 100 MPH. I have also had to sit outside of Chicago waiting for signals. If one train is late, it backs the system up (much like air traffic control). You miss a signal and you have what happened to the Amtrak Pere Marquette, it runs into another train. | ||
Transitrider Member Username: Transitrider Post Number: 52 Registered: 01-2007 |
Amtrak also cannot take the shortest route because the connection does not currently exist. (The bridge at Junction is there, but needs to be restored.) The massive S-curve forces a slowdown, but being able to take the shallow curve again would cut as much as 10 minutes off the trip: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms ?msa=0&msid=110278821576540906 383.000442d596d27d2087001&ie=U TF8&z=15 | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1186 Registered: 12-2006 |
I don't have any inside knowledge, but I would surmise that Transitrider's idea, and things of that sort, are the topics of negotiations between SEMCOG and Norfolk Southern et al. about the commuter rail service. | ||
Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2007 |
I recall that S-curve well. There was a loud screeching noise when we turned north on it. I live in Wayne three minutes away from the proposed Westland-Metro airport station and I'll hopefully be going to WSU's pharmacy school in 2009 or 2010 and I go to Detroit quite a bit anyway. I've been a major supporter of the commuter rail line to give me an alternative mode of transportation that would be cost and time similar to driving. It is time-efficient for me if I needed to go to Dearborn, Ypsi or AA. Since I live in Wayne, I have to go 10 minutes south just to reach the freeway and Michigan Avenue is slow. Speaking of commuter rail, aren't we supposed to be getting news sometime in April? Thanks for all the replies. I've been coming to the forum for about six months but this is my first post. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5581 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:The counter says it's number 2. Time for a thorough investigation of the whereabouts of the missing first post. | ||
Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2007 |
OK. Time to create a search group. Unless... Does my initial post count as post 1, my second post on the S-curve count as 2 and this post explaining my posts count as number 3? Let's see if this ups my post count. | ||
Drankin21 Member Username: Drankin21 Post Number: 209 Registered: 12-2003 |
And your response to this post will be? from a frequent reader but infrequent poster, welcome | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5582 Registered: 10-2004 |
No big deal but it should have read, "That was my first post." While not 100% certain, I thought that Amtrak owns track #1 along the Michigan Line west from CP-West Detroit to CP-Town Line (Greenfield) and that they paid for the welded-track improvements there, not Conrail. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1336 Registered: 11-2003 |
Flyingj wrote, "...most major cities regulate rail traffic @ yardspeeds." I don't think that's the case. At least in Michigan recently, cities that have tried to place speed limits on railroads usually are shot down by various federal authorities. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5583 Registered: 10-2004 |
Madison's petitions as to trains immediately coming out of its downtown there were recently denied by the FRA. Besides, there are only two grade crossings in the Conrail SAA along the Amtrak route: Central and Lonyo. The Amtraks speed through them on those welded rails. There are some grade crossings north of Detroit, though, along the Canadian National owned ROW. But not in the Conrail SAA. Yard traffic might have been a cause for concern around 1970 or earlier when the railroads were busier. But only a few shippers anymore use railroads. So, ROWs near the older yards are more likely to have non-welded rail and less likely to have any yard traffic. | ||
Rugbyman Member Username: Rugbyman Post Number: 283 Registered: 06-2005 |
I don't really know much about railroad infrastructure other than the fact that the rails owned by the private companies are largely ancient and in need of overhaul. I assume the welded rails you're talking about are the upgrade. What sort of investment do they require? What type of performance upgrade do they allow for? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5585 Registered: 10-2004 |
The Wiki makes explaining this easier... CWR isn't cheap to install because it's not just welding rail segments together, but completely replacing the former jointed-track with a new system. Meaning: It ain't cheap. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1969 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'm pretty sure that Amtrak doesn't own any real estate in that area, but they may own exclusive track rights. Between Michigan Ave and around Milwaukee Junction (East of New Center) there are two parallel but separate railroads. It is complicated because in some areas the north railroad is Canadian National (Grand Trunk Western-GTW), but in others it is Conrail. In simple terms, crossing another railroad or switching between them take a lot longer than sticking to the same one. (To use a air traffic analogy, you have two separate air traffic controllers, and the hand-offs are done carefully.) My understanding of Amtrak's operations in the area (south/west bound): -The trains coming from Oakland county cross the northern (Conrail) set of tracks (point of conflict #1) and join the southern set (This occurs just north of the Milwaukee park lofts). -The northern and southern tracks cross each other (point of conflict #2). This is between Brush and Beaubien streets. (Now the northern is GTW.) -The Amtrak platform is on the north side of the north set of tracks just west of Woodward. -Amtrak trains follow the northern set of tracks until just after I-96. -Near 25th and Selden, Amtrak switches to the southern (Conrail) set of tracks. (Point of conflict #3) -At about W. Grand Blvd, the two tracks separate, and Amtrak follows the curve to the south. -After crossing Michigan Ave, there is a sharp curve to the west. Switches around this curve are point of conflict #4. -Right next to Junction St, Amtrak must cross over the GTW tracks that it was on a few miles ago. (Point of conflict #5.) -Then the train must continue through the rail yard (Point of conflict #6) before heading out to Dearborn. Any of these six points of conflict are potentials for delays, and they generally require the train to slow down. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5586 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: I don't generally get on Bob's case, as he's usually correct in his assessments... But, he exaggerated a bit this time. I figured that Amtrak didn't use any track (U.S. track classes) legally capable of exceeding 90 MPH. So, I Googled "Amtrak-owned track" and found that to be the case. Amtrak trains pick up speed in Michigan (Message edited by livernoisyard on March 24, 2008) | ||
Downriviera Member Username: Downriviera Post Number: 160 Registered: 02-2008 |
I read that the railroads are booming with all the container freight from China, etc. They have been adding equipment, employees and double and triple tracking in some areas. Many steam train excursions have been canceled because the freight railroads are so jammed they don't have the room for them to run. This is the main reason why Amtrak is never on time, because the freight railroads hold them up. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 446 Registered: 09-2004 |
Livernois, I think you're right. I've also heard that Amtrak owns the #1 Main from CP-Townline just east of the Dearborn Amtrak station to CP-West Detroit. They speed along Southern Ave and John Kronk at a good pace! A double track bridge DOES remain in place at CP-West Detroit to route an eastbound train on the MC northbound on the CN Shoreline, but is devoid of rails. The truck trailer storage company appears to have laid some asphalt just to the northeast of the bridge, but a little eminent domain action could restore a direct connection between these two lines, and yes, thus shaving off several minutes used to putz around CP-Scotten and CP-Vinewood, nevermind any other traffic going through West Detroit. That routing would avoid the Conrail SAA Detroit Line from Toledo and Delray entirely. The CN expands to doubletrack just north of CP-West Detroit. From West Detroit north to the Detroit Amtrak station, the trains do seem to run particularly slow, even though there are no rail junctions or road crossings. Slow orders on some of the 75 year old bridges, perhaps? I think the CN is welded rail until the train switches onto the Holly Subdivision north of Milwaukee Jct, where I know it's jointed, but in good shape. Dearborn to Pontiac and back is a run I need to take again sometime, just for fun. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1970 Registered: 12-2003 |
LY, That information is out of date. They are somewhere above 90 mph and below 110 mph right now for a segment of Amtrak-owned track between Kalamazoo and Niles. The track is class 6, but they are still validating (and tweaking?) the new ITC signalling system. quote: (http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/ am2Copy/Title_Image_Copy_Page& c=am2Copy&cid=1081442674300&ss id=542) also: http://mwhsr.blogspot.com/2005 _12_25_archive.html | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5587 Registered: 10-2004 |
There isn't that much freight traffic once away from Chicago on the Wolverine Line. Why might one think that Norfolk Southern wants to sell its assets in that stretch from Detroit to Chicago? (Message edited by livernoisyard on March 24, 2008) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1724 Registered: 11-2003 |
Whatever the actual speed is, you do notice when the speed goes up when you are riding the train. (Message edited by bob on March 24, 2008) | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1971 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: LY is right...and this is exactly why there is a great opportunity to add sidings, upgrade track, and install train control to get speeds up to 110 mph from Detroit to Chicago. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 447 Registered: 09-2004 |
As for the Amtrak owned trackage from Kalamazoo to Porter, here is how it works. The Amtrak owned portion begins just west of the BO Tower interlocker in Downtown Kalamazoo and continues until the junction with the NS Chicago mainline at Porter, IN. Amtrak's high speed portion, where they currently run at 95mph, extends from just west of the Kalamazoo station to Niles. West of Niles, the trains still run at 79mph (standard Amtrak speed limit), although an upgrade to 90 or 95 is planned soon. Overall, the next major increase should be to 105mph, then the ultimate goal of 110 for this portion. The timetables currently reflect the times as if all trains only traveled at 79mph, thus, trains gain some time. If they are running late, they can make up time west of Kalamazoo, if they are early, they sit in Kalamazoo and get their station work done (Kzoo is the second busiest station in Michigan after Ann Arbor), and can depart on time. This is especially helpful to eastbound trains, as delays around Chicago are prevalent. The "padding" is equal to roughly 15 minutes if the train is on time entering the territory at Niles and is not delayed between there and Kalamazoo. As for other areas where Amtrak trains can exceed 79mph, the NEC and line to Harrisburg are all good for over 79. Also, a segment of the route of the Southwest Chief in either Colorado or New Mexico is also good for 90mph. Hope this helps. | ||
Jrvass Member Username: Jrvass Post Number: 560 Registered: 01-2007 |
Hmmm. My brother came in from CHI to PNT on the Amtrak and he was going to use his portable GPS to check the speed. Forgot it. He had also heard 100mph but a conductor said they were going 90mph. Maybe it depends on the weather for cross-traffic with roads? Anyway, they were 20 min. ahead arriving in Jackson and had to wait. By the time they got to Detroit they were 20 min. behind, and 10 minutes late arriving in Pontiac. My only Amtrak ride was going to Chicago from Pontiac to buy a truck 10 years ago. At one stop, the doors on one car froze open (somewhere in mid-MI). We couldn't proceed until a mechanic was able to use a torch to thaw the ice and snow. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5588 Registered: 10-2004 |
The impending passage of the Amtrak often requires freight along track #1 on the Michigan Line to cease its operations until the Amtrak clears. A frequent casualty of this might be the relatively small salvage consist using track #1 between Livernois Yard and the switch at Ferrous on Southern in east Dearborn just west of Lonyo. The other salvage yard uses the track that crosses track #1 immediately east of Central and Kronk. That train literally would have to sit by the siding or spur heading into Ferrorus for the entire time that the Amtrak leaves Pontiac (or just enters Milwaukee Junction, if the dispatcher goes easy on them). Obviously, that's a long wait for that freight, considering that there are still three other stops for passengers after Pontiac. |
