 
Realitycheck
Member
Username: Realitycheck
Post Number: 568
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:41 pm: |    |
quote:. . . removed a floor diaphragm that braced the wall
-- DanInDC, before seeing pix Ah, the diverse and obscure tidbits we pick up from DY forumers whose knowledge is as vast as our leisure time. And I thought learning about steam-powered Tyfon horns on the lovely Edward L. Ryerson was enough to carry me through the week.
A person could study for Jeopardy here. Almost. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 862
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:43 pm: | |
Realitycheck, in DaninDC's defense, there was a pic with the WDIV story. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 4114
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:43 pm: | |
Built in 1874, top floor added/modified in 1898. One of the oldest buildings downtown. |
Jfk
Member
Username: Jfk
Post Number: 3
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:44 pm: | |
The name of the bar is "The Well" |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 677
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:46 pm: | |
I'm going out to lunch soon, will go somewhere in that 'hood and see how she's doing and if there is sag. |
Ray1936
Member
Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 2942
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:48 pm: | |
Looking at the front view a second time, yes, Fury, I can see how that top floor was added on after the fact. Interesting.
Great photos, Digitalvision. Thanks. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4095
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:48 pm: | |
It's a bit difficult to tell exactly what happened from the photos posted above. It looks, however, like there was a shear failure in the facade above the second story windows. Once that failed, the rest of the load bearing exterior wall came down with it. The cause of the failure is not readily apparent from the photos, although I suspect it would be related to a temporary construction condition.
Since the floor diaphragms span to this particular wall, I'd get some shores under those floor joists with a quickness! |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4018
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:49 pm: | |
such a nice facade  |
Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 1352
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:50 pm: | |
Great. Now vandals/scrappers can get in there and further wreck the place, after going through whatever half-assed fence or barricade will be put up. |
Downtownguy
Member
Username: Downtownguy
Post Number: 125
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 1:06 pm: | |
Google street view from the back before the collapse. That's the Old Shillelagh on the left.
0%2C-3.0270853506922695&ll=42. 335424%2C-83.043836&spn=0.0008 68%2C0.002511&z=19,http://maps .google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&layer =c&cbll=42.334941,-83.044024&c bp=1,213.6589242327193,,0,-3.0 270853506922695&ll=42.335424,- 83.043836&spn=0.000868,0.00251 1&z=19 |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 318
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 1:08 pm: | |
What a shame. That is a sweet looking building. Great neighborhood. Had lotsa potential. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 678
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 1:39 pm: | |
Am posting from scene with gadfly about town Gannon. Front is slightly bowed and there are cracks on the top of the facade; side has cracks at the bottom and top of where the second floor is on the exterior of the Monroe side. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2099
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 1:50 pm: | |
Next time somebody wants to rehab a building, please hire an engineer first. :P |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 323
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 2:07 pm: | |
Demolition By Neglect |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4099
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 2:28 pm: | |
^^^Not necessarily.
This particular building has been standing for well over 100 years. The winds were nowhere current design wind loads (about 50% of current design wind speed), and masonry walls of these older structures tend to be fairly robust, as they were often overdesigned since they didn't have modern analytical techniques and empirical data like we have now. You'd also have to consider that the shear walls (in this case, the two walls perpendicular to the wall that collapsed) were able to resist the lateral loads.
In cases like this, there is often a temporary condition inadvertently created by an unwitting demolition contractor. The temporary condition can create an instability or remove a degree of redundancy, and as soon as a good gust of wind comes along, the weakness that was created leads to structural damage.
Again, I'm not sure exactly what happened here, but what I've described above is usually the case in these types of failures. |
Udmphikapbob
Member
Username: Udmphikapbob
Post Number: 543
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 2:53 pm: | |
wait, aren't these two different buildings that have been posted here? is it in greektown on monroe, or next to the well on randolph? |
Udmphikapbob
Member
Username: Udmphikapbob
Post Number: 544
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 2:57 pm: | |
never mind - just two different directions, right? |
Spiritofdetroit
Member
Username: Spiritofdetroit
Post Number: 895
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 2:58 pm: | |
Correct. Corner of Randolph and Monroe. Front faces Randolph |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12113
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:07 pm: | |
Udm,
It is always about perspective, isn't it?! |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 679
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:13 pm: | |
New front facade pic - cracks highlighted. Sorry about low res... had to compress to make it work on the forum and I don't have all afternoon to play with it :-)
|
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 198
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:17 pm: | |
Hopefully the entire building collapses and takes The Well with it. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12116
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:24 pm: | |
That would be SOME kinda wind... |
Realitycheck
Member
Username: Realitycheck
Post Number: 571
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:30 pm: | |
So here's your bonus for attending today's DY structural design principles symposium:If you've paid attention and taken notes, you've got a jump on the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam
|
Rhymeswithrawk
Member
Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 1181
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:32 pm: | |
This is horrible news. Not only is that one of Detroit's oldest buildings (built in 1874, two years after the Sailors and Soldiers Monument was erected), but it will no doubt lead to a call for more abandoned buildings to be torn down instead of saved for possible renovation. I can almost hear the wrecking ball tearing into what's left of the 134-year-old brick. Sigh. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5689
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:44 pm: | |
quote:If you've paid attention and taken notes, you've got a jump on the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam That's but a wee part of the EIT--the educated ditchdigger's (aka CE) part... |
Detroitstar
Member
Username: Detroitstar
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:45 pm: | |
I am standing here looking at the building from about 200 feet away, and I worried for the whole structure. I dont see anyone spending the money it would require to save this place.
Does anyone remember if there was a fire escape on this building? I agree with the person above who questioned if this could be part of the reason for the collapse. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2100
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:48 pm: | |
Fire escape seemed to be on the rear. Now it's on the ground, I think. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4100
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:52 pm: | |
Um, how would the fire escape bring the facade down?
If this is, in fact, the fault of the Contractor, then the Owner will likely seek compensation from the Contractor's insurer. But that takes time in court, so don't expect much movement (aside from some possible shoring) anytime soon. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 680
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:55 pm: | |
Fire escape was on the rear.
This building is good as gone, IMHO, probably by the end of the week. It looks like a lot of work and it might be easier at this point to have insurance pay for the demo and start over... unfortunately, it will probably become more surface lot.
However, you could put that parcel together with the corner parcel and the one next to it that's vacant and maybe do something maybe. |
Viziondetroit
Member
Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 3:57 pm: | |
"Police are still looking into the cause."
^^ I don't think Sherlock Holmes needs to be on the case for this one. |
Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 4963
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 4:08 pm: | |
Slumpy II -- The Sequel. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 681
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 4:28 pm: | |
Although it's not in the article, the front door of the Freep says that building inspectors cite water damage and time for the reason of the collapse.
I'm no architect... there are plenty in here who can say what that means as far as integrity. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 4116
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 4:28 pm: | |
I don't know why the walls just can't be stabilized as a prelude to a total interior gut/rehab. Isn't that what they did with the old Monroe Bakery building in Greektown? |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12120
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 4:36 pm: | |
Gravity will be found to be the greatest cause.
Since only the portion that had the fire escape on it went down, and there IS that odd bowing of the floors where this 'piece' spalled out...I'm wondering if the brickwork was weakened with the introduction of the metal.
Danindc, can brick really be strong enough to self-support? (with this metal stairing cantilevered off it with NO additional ground underpinnings) I'd think if it were left to erode, sans years of tuckpointing maintenance and such, this would be inevitable. Basically a brickwork Jenga game...
Especially if they were using these stairs to run equipment and bodies up and down for the construction work...it DOES look like they were white boxing it for future use. Nothing like a couple of bouncing portable beer bellies flexing a fifty-year old staircase screwed into the spaced between hundred-year-old bricks!
Joked with one of Detroit's Finest when we overheard them discussing demolition and potential costs...I quipped, 'depends on who bids the contract'...that got a knowing smile and nod. We postulated that Bobby Ferguson caught a woody just thinking about the potential quickie business...already ordering another set of wheels for his ride.
Noticed they called Boulevard/Trumbull to tow the cars...they've got an exclusive police contract, far as I know...another potential donor to the Mayor's INjustice Fund, I'm sure!
Cheers |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6607
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 4:54 pm: | |
If it was an 1874 building, it was likely wood frame. So what's happened here is likely the same as what is happening with the Fine Arts Building on GCP. Water rotting the wood beam supports.
Too bad that they can't save the facade of the building (like they're planning on doing with the Fine Arts) and just build anew behind it. |
Rjlj
Member
Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 490
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 5:16 pm: | |
Why does everyone hate The Well? Would you rather it be nothing?
Also, great analysis Digitalvision!••• I think I also spotted a crack in the sidewalk. |
Ray1936
Member
Username: Ray1936
Post Number: 2945
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 5:40 pm: | |
Boulevard-Trumbull Towing had a contract with the DPD when I was still there in '84. They always did good work. Dunno about any ownership change, though. |
Shark
Member
Username: Shark
Post Number: 349
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 6:15 pm: | |
Too bad this building couldn't be saved like the other Odd Fellows Building. I always thought that would be an excellent target for rehab.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20080401/M ETRO/804010406
Looks like we won't be getting that new restaurant... |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 4023
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 7:38 pm: | |
Gannon, a year or two ago I heard tales about Boulevard & Trumbull & the DPD. Supposedly a few cops were quietly arrested but then nothing came out about it. Allegedly some cops and B&T were messing with the impound auctions and some nice property that should have gone to public auction didn't.
BTW Boulevard & Trumbull operates under a few different names in the city. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5694
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 7:51 pm: | |
Somebody's asking to be fitted with concrete booties and then go swimming... |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4700
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 9:33 pm: | |
I took this picture seven days ago. I absolutely love that old block and it would be disappointing to lose the Oddfellows. The Well and Baltimore Lunch can also be seen.
|
Shark
Member
Username: Shark
Post Number: 350
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 10:21 pm: | |
What, if anything, goes on above The Well? |
Amgasper01
Member
Username: Amgasper01
Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 10:48 pm: | |
"Hopefully the entire building collapses and takes The Well with it."
Pretty respectful, Rax. Thanks for wishing that some of the nicest entrepeneurs in town lose their livelyhood. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4102
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 11:16 pm: | |
quote:Danindc, can brick really be strong enough to self-support? (with this metal stairing cantilevered off it with NO additional ground underpinnings) I'd think if it were left to erode, sans years of tuckpointing maintenance and such, this would be inevitable. Basically a brickwork Jenga game...
Yup, brick masonry is *definitely* strong enough to support itself. Most small buildings of this vintage used solid load-bearing masonry walls, with wood floor framing. Because of the inherent redundancy of a load-bearing masonry wall (there are infinite load paths), there would have to be a LOT of mortar missing for the wall to suddenly fail. You would be more likely to see individual bricks dislodge before you'd see a catastrophic collapse due to mortar loss.
Based on the definitive (note sarcasm) conclusion of "water damage", this is what seems to have happened: massive water infiltration, for an extended period of time, deteriorated the bearing ends of the wood floor joists. Typically, these joists would pocket into the wall. A big problem with this, of course, is that if water gets trapped in the pocket, there's no place for it to go except into the hydrophilic wood members. Over a long period of time, this leads to rot. The pockets would need to have a drain--a recurring problem with this typical-of-the-period detail (We see it a lot on historic structures.)
Modern masonry wall construction uses cavities between wythes of masonry to give moisture an outlet. Interior wall flashing and weep holes help guide the moisture to the exterior, keeping the interior framing nice and dry.
So, the joists deteriorated (I presume) and fell out of the wall pockets. When this occurs, the floor diaphragm no longer braces the wall. When left unbraced for an excessive length, the wall has a greater tendency to buckle, even under its own self-weight. Think of a column getting more slender, under the same loading. Current masonry codes (ACI-530) have provisions for empirical design that are rule-of-thumb, and tend to be conservative; these walls were likely "designed" this way (again, typical of the period). The big empirical rule is that wall height cannot exceed 30 times the masonry thicknes. In other words, if you have an 8" masonry wall unbraced for more than 20 feet, don't expect it to stand up.
Again, I'm not familiar with all the details of this particular building, other than what's in the photos. This is typically what would happen, though, in a building constructed typical to the period.
The self-weight of the fire escape is miniscule when compared to the loads of self-weight and dead & live loads of the floors that the wall was already supporting.
Hope this helps. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6609
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 11:51 pm: | |
Thanks for the info Dan!
Based on the streetscape, it would be a great loss to that block to lose this building. Maybe the interior can be gutted and rebuilt... (I know, fat chance!). |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 12126
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 11:51 pm: | |
Loads! |
Macphoto
Member
Username: Macphoto
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 7:21 am: | |
I shot this on the day the wall collapsed. A small pile of bricks were on the ground, but since I only had a telephoto lens, I focused on where the bricks came from. The brick structure was obviously weakened prior to the larger failure.
|
New threads cannot be started on this page. The threads above are previous posts made to this thread.