Discuss Detroit » Archives - January 2008 » A music amphitheater may anchor Hart Plaza « Previous Next »
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Sayitaintso
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Username: Sayitaintso

Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This would be nice. But with the current budget problems, it's probably many, many years away.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20080403/BUS INESS04/804030343/1017/BUSINES S
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Miguel
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Username: Miguel

Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 9:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is is just me or is anyone sick of hearing about these "dreams" that will never become reality in our lifetimes? In Detroit, the only time I get excited for a project is when the project is half way done. I'm sick of the words "plan" and " study".

(Message edited by miguel on April 04, 2008)
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 480
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 9:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would hope it includes a widened Riverwalk as well. Or they add a faster traffic bypass. That portion near Hart Plaza gets absolutely jammed in the summertime. And it's not right routing passing cyclists by the Underground Railroad memorial when folks are there reading the plaque or bricks.
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Dtowncitylover
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Username: Dtowncitylover

Post Number: 33
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 9:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think I'm getting a little sick of it myself, Miguel. Amphitheatre in hart plaza? meh.
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 351
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder how much of the $40-50 million is for the demolition of Ford Auditiorium/building of the amphitheatre. This is a project that could certainly be done in 2-3 stages. I'm not big on naming rights but they sure do generate a lot of easy money. Maybe they could sell the rights to just the amphitheatre for $10 million or so.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2434
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is there not already an amphitheatre in Hart Plaza? Let's just build other needed public projects before redoing what already exists in fine shape...
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 6622
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's not just about ripping down Ford Auditorium and building an amphitheatre... it also will involve the demolition of the Chene Amphitheatre. That was built during the CAY days as a 3,000 seat amphitheatre, only to be closed and expanded into a 5,000 seat amphitheatre.

Now the city wants to get rid of that and build a new amphitheatre in Hart Plaza.

Glad Detroit has so much money to keep doing it over and over again...
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 5981
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hopefully they will include a Cheesecake factory in these plans. And perhaps a Gondola to the Amusement Park on Belle Isle.
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 902
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hart Plaza is definitely underutilized. For such a large public space on the riverfront, this plan needs to be implemented. I love it. Get it done.

Hey - then kwame can build the $500 million aquarium he promised too
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 12191
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As soon as Chene Amphitheater is actually managed to capacity...this is one of the dumbest ideas EVER. They cannot even book Chene for full use by the citizenry...bad management, like nearly everything else in this nepotism-capital of the midwest.

USE the existing areas in Hart Plaza...or do they get too many complaints from soft asses on the concrete?

Start to sell or rent Detroit cushions...I got one from the SuperBowl that I'd take down there if I ever had a bad-butt day.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2440
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Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Hart Plaza is definitely underutilized. For such a large public space on the riverfront, this plan needs to be implemented. I love it. Get it done."

How would expanding Hart Plaza to include the land area of the Ford Auditorium, make the already rather large plaza any more used? Point is, to better use an underutilized space, DON'T expand it. That would do little more than create a LARGER unused space! Hart Plaza seems to already have enough features to it. It would be a better idea (economic considerations aside), if that land were sold to a developer to create an urban mixed use office, and or retail, residential high rise there. Something like that facing a plaza would create more activity--not another amphitheatre.
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Crew
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Username: Crew

Post Number: 1418
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bad-butt day?

manrooter would have had a field day with that comment :-)
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 60
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think this is a great idea for one very large reason. Hart Plaza and Chene Park are to small. I think back to past festivals and events where fights brake out because of the overcrowding. Then there is the near riot at Chene Park a couple years ago after the turnout for the Pistons Viewing Party was oversold, and intensified by walk-ups. They just decided to kick everyone out at half-time. The real question is whether this could compete with DTE (or whatever it's called now) and the Palace.

I get tired of unrealized projects, dreams, and plans too. But at least these people are thinking. I really think that we need to really support any idea that is beneficial to our City, especially those that are presented by our leaders (the ones that aren't so corrupt). If we help support and push their ideas, then maybe we can remind them more often of all the other issues that we currently face. I know this isn't really how it's supposed to work, but it's an idea.

Post Script Edit:

Do you guys think that incorporating a portion of the Ford Auditorium (such as the stage area) would make this plan more viable/realistic? Maybe a new facade, so it could still be an icon? Maybe moving portions of Chene Park to Hart Plaza?

(Message edited by sean_of_detroit on April 04, 2008)
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 12194
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crew!

Good to hear from you again, especially with that comment. His spirit is with us still.

Cheers, sittin' fine, heh.
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Sayitaintso
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Username: Sayitaintso

Post Number: 12
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IMO expanding green space, where people from all walks of life can relax and gather, is always a good thing. The prospect of an open air venue for the Detroit Symphony to hold concerts, after work M - F or on weekends would certainly draw people, plus more economic activity. Plus downtown office workers might get some free M- F lunch time practices/concerts out of it too.
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Exmotowner
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Username: Exmotowner

Post Number: 473
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Charlottepaul. There is a amplitheater down there. Yes it is small but it is functional and serves the purpose just fine. Detroit has MANY MANY problems that they could fix with that money. To me a major investment down there would be WAY down on my list.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 61
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, but if done properly this could actually be an investment, and bring in additional revenue in the long run.
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Detsfb
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Username: Detsfb

Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It will be interesting to see what comes of this. The DSO received a $100,000 grant from the Knight Foundation for a feasibility study of a summer home on the riverfront.

Now if only we could devote less of the riverfront to parking structures.
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Dbc
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Username: Dbc

Post Number: 113
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would love to see this come to fruition, but I'm not holding my breath. I echo the sentiment that a more open green space would attract more people. Sorry to say it, but I find Hart Plaza uninviting and soulless. I think it has too much concrete and the underground area is wasted, ugly space. The proposed design is so much more appealing than the current Hart Plaza, and imagine a bigger Campus Martius right on the water! Also, Ford Auditorium is an eyesore, and I think an open-air amphitheater used by the DSO would be great. (Supposedly, the Ford's would not be happy if it's torn down, so why not call it the Ford Music Shell?)

As for Chene Park, it would be a huge waste of money to get rid of it - what else is new? - but it makes more sense to have the amphitheater centralized at Hart Plaza. On the bright side, once the housing market and economy pick up, I would imagine the city would have no problem utilizing the Chene Park space.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 64
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 3:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just out of curiosity, why on Earth are they going to waste money tearing down Chene Park? Could this be used as a picnic shelter or covered area (saving the canopy structure).

(Message edited by sean_of_detroit on April 05, 2008)
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Dbc
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Post Number: 114
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 5:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I meant that if they tear down Chene Park, the whole project, i.e., the money spent to build, expand, and maintain it, would be a waste of money.

Also, I would guess that having green space at Hart Plaza and Millennium Park would negate the need for some sort of park-like area at Chene Park. Again, it's just a guess, but I would imagine the land would be more valuable for development.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2596
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 5:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chene Park's amphitheater location interferes with the residential development plans along the river. You can not get people with money to move along the east riverfront if they have to listen to blaring music during summer evenings for four months out of the year.

If you have been to Chene Park during the concert months, you can hear the music as far away as Jefferson Avenue. Many Detroiters don't even pay to hear the concerts. They either just park a chair along Atwater and listen from there or sit along the non-paying sides of Chene Park. Also, the parking space required for concert goers takes up valuable riverfront land that could be better utilized.

Now, if Chene Park is a hinderance to east riverfront development, but the city doesn't want to lose the money that Chene Park brings in from the summer concerts, then the solution is to rebuild Chene Park somewhere else. Where is the most logic spot to do this? You guessed it, Hart Plaza.

Building a new amphitheater on Hart Plaza saves the city from having to make space available for concert parking. People can use the underground parking at Ford Auditorium if the construction of this new amphitheater doesn't interfere with it. Even if it does, there are hundreds of parking locations in Downtown Detroit that people can use.

Also, putting a new amphitheater in Hart Plaza supports the argument for demolishing Ford Auditorium, an eyesore along Jefferson and for those using the Riverwalk. It serves no useful purpose and must eventually come down. Using the auditorium site to expand Hart Plaza makes sense. Putting a new amphitheater in Ford Auditorium's space makes sense.

My only concern with putting an amphitheater on the Ford Auditorium site is how is it going to affect Atwater Street. Currently Atwater runs underneath Hart Plaza and is a very important access route for getting to and from the RenCen area to the Cobo/Joe Louis Arena area. It would be a bad idea to cut the street off just to align the amphitheater along the river. The drawing seems to suggest that Atwater would run underneath the seating of the new amphitheater, but that would make the actual seating for the amphitheater very limiting.

Oh, and one other thing regarding the "greening" of Hart Plaza, I think it would be a bad idea. The concrete areas are needed for the large crowds that are there for the fireworks, jazz festival, and riverfront festivals. I could see some grassy areas immediately around the fountain, but that's about the only place I could see new grass.

During the African World Festival for example, vendors line the walkways. Having that additional "concrete" surface comes in handy when the large crowds show up for such events. I can't see how the African World Festival organizers could continue the vendor set up if Hart Plaza's walkways turned into grass. I can't see how you could successfully use Hart Plaza for the annual fireworks if the concrete walkways were converted to grass.

So in conclusion, the idea of building an amphitheater where the Ford auditorium now stands is a good idea. The idea of replacing the concrete walkways in Hart Plaza with grass is a bad idea.

(Message edited by royce on April 05, 2008)
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401don
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Post Number: 353
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 8:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have to agree with Royce about the grass. CMart appears greener but there's little grass you actually walk on. On the Windsor side every blade of grass was gone when the carnival rides and concerts used to be at the foot of Ouelette. They have since moved them further east onto pavement. You can have green areas but not where the festival traffic is walking.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 4559
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am in full support of replacing the Ford Auditorium with anything.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 12201
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, fine.

Tear down Ford Auditorium.


MOVE Chene Amphitheater there.

Done deal. Everyone happy.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 6625
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 1:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would be curious to hear from someone living in one of the townhouses on top of the River Place parking deck, and ask them about the nearby music from Chene Park. I wonder if it is an issue for them.

Plus, I would think that having the Symphony playing their summer performances there would be a plus for folks with nearby residential. Ditto for jazz performances.

Anybody who were to buy a residence in the area would already know what they were getting into. It wouldn't be a surprise! Plus, if I were living nearby, I'd be inviting friends over for an evening soiree on the balcony listening to concerts.

I tend to think that folks moving down to the riverfront for a hip urban experience would welcome such a scenario.

If you want peace and quiet, then riverfront/downtown living is not the place to be moving to anyway.
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Neilr
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lafayette Park is some distance away from Chene Park. I often hear the announcer and music from the concerts (and also from Hart Plaza to a lesser extent); but because of the distance the sound is muffled and blends into the background. It's really rather pleasant.

Up close, I would think that in addition to the (very loud) music, the traffic would be a major concern.
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Mackinaw
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Post Number: 4560
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 1:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, but, it is our downtown, and traffic means that people are there to do stuff. Obviously it would be a better sign to have heavy weekday traffic because of more people working there, but events have an important place in the downtown economy. We have plenty of parking across downtown, and below downtown, to absorb all of these people. What's the worst that could happen, some more surface lots turn into garages?

Right now I don't think we should be in any hurry to move Chene Park, because it's not like those riverfront parcels have much movement on them and we need to get it into a developer's hands. But perhaps if we start thinking about this now, that spot can be ready to develop by the time the housing market gets hot again, and demand for new Detroit housing materializes some more.

The upside of keeping Chene Park where it is is that an entertainment venue is a nice cog to have in a mixed-use neighborhood such as the one we want to have in the E. Riverfront district. But, Hart Plaza is a mile from CP, and having HP and a new venue there is still close to the E. Riverfront district-- and accessible by the riverwalk, or what we hope will be nice, walkable streetscapes. Thus there will still be plenty of benefits to go around.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Post Number: 279
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Firstly, Ford Auditorium is an eyesore due to it's vacancy and years of non-use. It's actually a beautiful piece of architecture and the Ford family would be well within their right to "not appreciate" it's demolition. Nonetheless, I think it's a fait accompli that the place doesn't have a future as a theater of any kind--so if it must go in the name of an expanded and improved Hart Plaza--so be it. Hart definitely needs a makeover--perhaps not completely greened--but definitely some significant expanses of grass and trees--demolition of the bi-level "homeless shelter" and improved tie-ins to surrounding streets. The amphitheater idea has merit as a venue for the DSO, for jazz concerts, as a site for some of Hart's current events such as the Hoedown and the Electronic Music Festival--jazz, etc--so long as it is not intended to be a 'competing' venue for Meadowbrook, DTE, Freedom Hill, etc--that makes as much sense as reopening the Ford to compete with the Fox, Music Hall, The MAX, Opera House and Fillmore.
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Royce
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Post Number: 2598
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Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fastcarsfreedom, if Chene Park competes with DTE, Freedom Hill, and Meadow Brook, and the amphitheater at Hart Plaza would replace Chene Park, then the amphitheater at Hart Plaza will compete with those venues.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Post Number: 282
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Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 12:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My point Royce, is that although Chene has found a niche for itself, it has never been competitive with the suburban venues.
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Gannon
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Post Number: 12208
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Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 6:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But it SHOULD be...with proper management.


I'm not going to drive over an hour each way for entertainment...not ever again in my life.
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Michigansheik
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Post Number: 297
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Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it is a lot of money but this makes sense, at the right time. There are going to be people buying those new riverfront condo's (hopefully) that will not want to hear the going on's of their adjacent theater. Also parking for chene theater will get scarce as buildings fill-in the east riverfront district. So moving the theater to the space of a closed up Ford auditorium seems logical. That location also does not have direct neighbors that would/should object to noise until 10pm or 11pm. This plan also puts our outdoor theater in people mover range and if sized right could attract some shows set for Freedom Hill/DTE too.
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Fastcarsfreedom
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Post Number: 284
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Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

True enough, it could be and should be a stronger competitor to the other venues--and I can appreciate not wanting to drive an hour each way for entertainment. Nonetheless, this also ignores the fact that the bulk of shows at the aforementioned suburban venues rely primarily on a suburban audience base.
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Eric
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Post Number: 1123
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Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the greening of Hart Plaza not the amphitheater is the most important thing. It'll be years before Chene Park's parking and noise conflicts with residential development. There's no reason the city couldn't move forward with demolition Ford Auditorium, the greening and new features leaving the auditorium site as green space until it's necessary to build the amphitheater.
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Lifeinmontage
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Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like the new plan drawn up in the Free Press article. The park-like area leading up to the proposed shell has an almost Bryant Park feel and look to it, which I think would be great downtown. Hart Plaza's concrete covered maze of sidewalks, however uncomfortable for shows, it necessary for booths at events. I think the park in front of the shell would be a nice compromise.
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Gistok
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Post Number: 6629
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Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Two things need to happen before Ford Auditorium can be torn down... 1) the Aeolian-Skinner theatre type organ needs to be removed from the auditorium and perhaps used elsewhere in Detroit, and 2) the Marshall Fredericks metalwork artwork needs to be removed as well.

(Message edited by Gistok on April 07, 2008)
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2600
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Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 2:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The location of the amphitheater in the artist rendering appears to make it very close to the new Port Authority area. I wonder if he or she took that into consideration when the rendering was drawn.

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