  Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 58 Registered: 09-2006 |
Today, April 8, 2008, marks the 52nd anniversary of the elimination of streetcar service in the city of Detroit. In commemoration of that event, I have posted a number of photos I've collected over the years on my Detroit Transit History web-site. These photos cover the PCC era in Detroit and highlight the cars while at work along the streets of Detroit. They also offer a number of opportunities to view scenes of how the city once looked back in the day. Some here might have seen a few of these before, but a number I've just only recently obtained. I've also included captions with the photos to give a little background information. For those interested, the two pages can be viewed at: http://www.detroittransithisto ry.info/PhotoGalley/Photos1940 sC.html http://www.detroittransithisto ry.info/PhotoGalley/Photos1940 sD.html | ||
Hardhat Member Username: Hardhat Post Number: 233 Registered: 10-2003 |
Fantastic photos, and the captions really put the locations in perspective Thank you for sharing. | ||
Stinger4me Member Username: Stinger4me Post Number: 218 Registered: 08-2007 |
I looked at some of the photos and read a reference to the Log Cabin Loop where some of the Woodward route streetcars turned. Does anybody have any more details about it? | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 455 Registered: 09-2004 |
https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/6790/60222.html?11973366 49 Check out the Hall of Fame DSR streetcar thread (it links to page 3, with pages 1 and 2 also linked at the top). Lots of photos and other streetcar information here, and the answer to the Log Cabin question! | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4574 Registered: 02-2005 |
One of the great blunders in history. So sad. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 707 Registered: 11-2003 |
It's amazing to me how many people I talk to never knew we had streetcars and are amazed we took them away. It's been so long our institutional memory is almost gone. | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 44 Registered: 02-2008 |
Wow, thanks for the info! I am sadened that they took such beauty away. | ||
Living_in_the_d Member Username: Living_in_the_d Post Number: 161 Registered: 01-2008 |
Yeah, I really love seeing D.D.O.T./D.S.R. stuff, its just to cool. Thanks, Bc. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 604 Registered: 08-2006 |
Excellent series, Bc_n_dtown, very informative. Thanks for keeping us informed. Such a shame this had to happen here. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 6311 Registered: 11-2003 |
Excellent series. Thank you. Two items: We always called the Woodward Car Barns, "Manchester Yards". Were we wrong? jjaba enjoys the author's use of "Six Mile Road" even when his buses are badged, "Mc Nichols." Now that's a guy who's a Real Detroiter. jjaba, on the Dexter Line crossing Chicago blvd. | ||
Stinger4me Member Username: Stinger4me Post Number: 219 Registered: 08-2007 |
It must have been just after the name change, an uncle came to visit from Chicago. He spent some time driving around looking for 6 Mile Rd.. Someone clued him in and all was better when he learned about McNichols. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1206 Registered: 12-2006 |
When the road crews ripped up Livernois north of U of D two years ago to put in the boulevard, they found the old tracks under the pavement. The Professor had not been aware of any streetcar service on Livernois north of West McNichols (where the streetcar turned around, using what is now part of the Marathon gas station property). However, tracks don't lie... does anyone know what streetcar had used those tracks? The same boulevard project is starting up again, this time from Six Mile (for Jjaba) south to the Lodge. Methinks streetcars will return, sooner rather than later. Just methinks. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 709 Registered: 11-2003 |
I don't know if anyone has shared this yet, but I thought I would here... it's a SEMCOG survey for the public and found it in my email. Maybe it can help in bringing those streetcars back. http://www.semcogsurvey.com/ | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 6313 Registered: 11-2003 |
Good examples of new streetcars in USA are San Jose, Seattle, Portland (Ore.), New Orleans, and Salt Lake City. jjaba is sure there are others. The line in Portland operates as a free service and is very popular. The South Lake Union Trolley in Seattle has been enhanced by Paul Allen's development of many condos and commercial bldgs. along the route. The name of SLUT adds some fun to it. jjaba. | ||
Bragaboutme Member Username: Bragaboutme Post Number: 139 Registered: 02-2008 |
BC N Dtown, great photos detroit looked allot larger back then. I could get a good sense of how transit worked, especially with the captions. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1207 Registered: 12-2006 |
Jjaba, The Portland Streetcar is only supposed to be free in a certain neighborhood (granted, that neighborhood is about 2/3 of the whole line). When the Professor rode it, gate to gate, he never saw anyone make an attempt to pay for the ride. Very interesting. Made him wonder how the operations are paid for (although 88% of DDOT service comes from sources other than the fare-box). I have not yet ridden the SLUT for a buck seventy-five but I'd like to. I will be paying $3,998.25 less than the former Governor of New York would pay for the same trip  Sacramento is the oldest new streetcar in the US but there is one older in western Canada (Edmonton, I am thinking). Prof. Scott | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 6315 Registered: 11-2003 |
Oh yes, the Canadians have streetcars almost everywhere, and they are very successful. The Portland Streetcar is funded by payroll taxes on employers in the Tri-Met service area. (3 counties) About 80% of operations of the Tri-Met system is pre-funded. 20% comes from fares. Thus, only the buses have drivers who watch the fares. Transfers are free on the system. The street car's charm in Portland is the absence of fare inspectors in the small end zones which they say requre a fare. Downtown Portland is a FARELESS ZONE for light rail, buses, and streetcars. If Professorscott wants to control the whores, put a Governor on 'er. (Using the old RR term.) jjaba. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 2007 Registered: 04-2005 |
Professorscott, the DSR line that ran up to UofD was the 14th streetcar line, it switched to coaches in 1948. There's a photo of a small Spanish style waiting room at the end of the line on the campus, in vol 2 of Detroit's Street Railways. Capitol Park: Griswold to Clifford, to Cass, to Temple, to 14th, to Ferry Park, to Linwood, to Davison, then Livernois and McNichols. Southbound took Henry instead of Temple. (Message edited by Hornwrecker on April 08, 2008) | ||
Detroitnative Member Username: Detroitnative Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2008 |
Here in the Norfolk area there is talk of developing a mass transit system of some sort. I think that streetcars are on the list. This has me wondering how much effort from the city of Detroit it would take, to revive the streetcars. It seems with all this talk of "going green", streetcars should top the list. The idea shouldn't sound too ridiculous to anyone, considering the people mover still operates. | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 59 Registered: 09-2006 |
quote: Stinger4me, I wish I had a decent photo of the Log Cabin loop to put on my web-site, but unfortunately, all I've currently got is on videotape. FYI—The former Log Cabin Loop was located on the southern end of Palmer Park. I don't know how familiar you are with the Palmer Park area, but there's a Detroit Public Lighting sub-station located on Woodward just north of Merrill Plaisance Street, at the south-east corner of the park. The Log Cabin loop was located in that open lot between the sub-station and Merrill Plaisance. Actually, the loop obtained that name because at one time there was an actual log cabin waiting station located at that turn-around. Back during the Detroit United Railway (DUR) years, all Woodward streetcars turned at Palmer Park. Evidently, large number of Detroiters caught the streetcar to Palmer Park to visit a large log cabin-style summer home build there by U.S. Senator Thomas W. Palmer. From what I understand, it was a major local tourist attraction back then. As a matter of fact, the Palmer family cabin is still there today, although now closed to the public. To compliment the original Palmer log cabin, the DUR built a smaller log cabin at the end of the Woodward line to serve as a streetcar waiting station. Hence the name, "Log Cabin" Loop. Although the cabin was demolished when that portion of Woodward was widened during the mid-1920's, the loop area retained the name throughout the remaining streetcar years. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11468 Registered: 10-2003 |
One of the nails in the coffin that has been built over the last 50+ years contrary to the claims by so many that 'they' reuined the city when 'they' took over. | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 60 Registered: 09-2006 |
I'm glad to read that many of you enjoyed the photos. I felt that many here might appreciate seeing the cars in their actual setting along the streets of a Detroit that once was. jjaba, Referring to the DSR's Highland Park property as the "Manchester Yards" probably served to help identify the location of the yard for many, since Manchester Street led right into a private right-of-way that bordered the south end of the property. However, the streetcar area of the complex was 'officially' known as the "Woodward Carhouse." During the last years of the streetcars it became known as the Woodward Terminal, as bus runs were assigned to that area of the complex as well. Eventually, the location was known as the Highland Park Terminal. But I'm sure jjaba can get away with calling it the Manchester Yards. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 2008 Registered: 04-2005 |
 LOC/DPC More photos of the log cabin and Palmer Park at the Library of Congress: http://rs6.loc.gov/detroit/dethome.html | ||
Stinger4me Member Username: Stinger4me Post Number: 220 Registered: 08-2007 |
What is the present state of the Palmer Park Log Cabin? Still standing? It was boarded up in the late 70's. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 5686 Registered: 10-2003 |
It is still there...bell and all... | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1564 Registered: 12-2005 |
Automobile traffic on Woodward Avenue was light on the sunny Saturday morning of April 26, 1952. Fairgrounds Loop:  This aerial photo captures a streetcar in the center median, just as it is about to enter the Fairgrounds Loop. The white circular object at the northeast corner of Woodward and State Fair Avenues that looks like a watch face reading 10:55 is the Michigan War Veterans Memorial, which was erected in 1939. Log Cabin Loop:  A streetcar has just left the Log Cabin Loop and is in the middle of the southbound lanes of Woodward, while another makes its way in the center median towards the Fairgrounds Loop. Source: DTE Aerial Photo Collection, WSU | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 4955 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Good examples of new streetcars in USA are San Jose, Seattle, Portland (Ore.), New Orleans, and Salt Lake City. jjaba is sure there are others" yes, Los Angeles, CA, although some would call them trains... | ||
Erikto Member Username: Erikto Post Number: 681 Registered: 11-2003 |
We got more street cars than you can shake a stick at here in Toronto. For die hard transit heads, one could pick a route that would take you across the GTA from busses to street cars to the subway to the Scarberia elevated LRT system. ...And we're only a 4 hour drive from Detroit. Longer than Buffalo's mini-street car route, active unlike Rochester's abandoned subway line, visit and check it out. Or see some of the old Toronto street cars- in Cairo, Egypt. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 6317 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ofcourse Erikto is correct about old timey streetcar systems still running. jjaba was mentioning relatively new lines. No need to tout Toronto who never removed the lines. Philadelphia is a USA example of using old systems. In their case, the lines run surface, then disappear into subways in the heart of the city center. The same can said for the old timey Boston "T", and some still wonder, "Will they ever return..." It runs surface and then subway downtown in the Hub. Cleveland has its rail "Rapid" system which runs on surface and becomes subway in the city center. LA has a nice new light rail system running subway and surface in its long routes to Long Beach for example. And then there's Detroit. jjaba, on the Cairo line. | ||
Redwingz Member Username: Redwingz Post Number: 9 Registered: 09-2007 |
Fantastic photo's. I clearly remember our family returning from long trip to grandma's house and driving down Gratiot towards 7 Mile after leaving the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel. It was past midnight, but crews were working on Gratiot paving over the streetcar tracks. I was only 9 at the time, but I remember seeing the disappointment in my dad's face. He drove a truck for a local delivery firm. Year later he said he dreaded the thought of dealing with the arrogant drivers of the streetcars replacement, the BUS! Some bus driver would pull out from a bus stop into traffic just because they were bigger. Dealing with streetcars was easier because at least you kew where they were headed. A conspiracy conceived by GM to promote the products made by their motor coach division. Since Detroit was owned by the auto companies, I assume it easily worked its way through local city government. I forgot about the fairgrounds loop. What memories the picture bring back. I didn't ride a lot of streetcars unless mom was taking me from 7 and Gratiot shopping downtown at Hudsons or Crowleys. I remember my dad dropping us off in the AM and returning to the outskirts on the Gratiot line carrying bags of items. By that time we were lucky enough to have my dad's work truck and a black '58 Chevy Biscayne. Wish I had the Chevy now. Great looking streetcars, that's for sure. | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 64 Registered: 09-2006 |
thanks Redwingz, i'm glad the photos were able to bring back a few memories for you. | ||
Mama_jackson Member Username: Mama_jackson Post Number: 329 Registered: 06-2006 |
Recently I have been doing research looking through old newspapers on microfilm for my husband in Flint. We here in Flint had street cars. Seems like every week people were killed by the cars. Don't know if it was because of the rural types that would visit the city or what. Perhaps liability is some of the reason the City of Detroit removed the street cars? | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 65 Registered: 09-2006 |
quote: I can't speak regarding the current condition of the Palmer Family Cabin, but as of yesterday morning the log cabin was still standing when I drove past. Folks can easily miss it if they're not looking for it. When traveling along either Covington street or Merrill Plaisance, it's located behind trees to the north—just to the north-east across from the entrance to Third Street. Just be careful not to let the male prostitutes in that area think you're trying to make that hook-up. (LOL) | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 66 Registered: 09-2006 |
Thanks Mikeg for posting the aerial photo of the former Log Cabin Loop area. For years I had often wondered when driving past there whether there was enough room in the area adjacent to the DPL substation to accommodate more that one streetcar at a time. However, after comparing older aerial photos with more recent ones, I can now see that the current circular entrance lane from southbound Woodward to westbound Merrill Plaisance had been moved north, much closer to the substation, after the streetcars were removed. The former roadway configuration, which was then much closer to the eastbound lanes, would have allowed for a number of cars at a time to be able to layover in the loop. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 889 Registered: 05-2004 |
Didn't they also go down Grand River too? I seem to remember riding on one as a kid and the rail came off the line. | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 68 Registered: 09-2006 |
Well, Paulmcall, it all depends on what years you're referring to. Streetcars ran along Grand River prior to May 1947, before the motor buses replaced the streetcars. However, from July 1951 thru November 1962, electric "trackless" trolley-buses operated along Grand River. These were basically rubber tire electric buses without the rails. They received their power by connecting a trolley pole to the overhead electric lines above. If you're younger than say 55 to 60 years old, you probably rode on the electric trolley-buses. If you check out the link to this and the next page following you'll see what I'm referring to... http://www.detroittransithisto ry.info/PhotoGalley/Photos1950 sA.html | ||
Bc_n_dtown Member Username: Bc_n_dtown Post Number: 69 Registered: 09-2006 |
Well , Mama_jackson, the safety issue was one of the reasons here as well, but there were a number of others. DSR officials often cited four primary reasons for eliminating the city's streetcars. 1. Costs. It was claimed that the roadbed on many lines was badly deteriorating and the cost to repair the roadbed and overhead were more expensive than replacing the streetcars with buses. 2. Traffic flow. The elimination of streetcars would help the flow of vehicular traffic by opening up the center lanes that were occupied by the streetcars to ease auto traffic congestion. (Again, that Detroit mindset which still exists today of moving cars, not necessarily moving people) 3. Flexibility was another. "Free wheeling" buses could be rerouted in the event of a major accident, fire, street flooding, or any emergency situation that would block the rails. It was also brought out that in the event of a civil defense emergency (a major concern back during the 1950's) more buses would be available to evacuate the city, whereas the streetcars would offer little or no benefit. 4. Then there was the safety issue. Since buses offered curb-side loading and unloading, while streetcars had to be boarded and alighted from the center lanes, passenger wouldn't have to be overly concerned about collisions with autos when waiting for a bus. Although many waiting stations along major lines were within barricaded safety islands, a number were just painted off zones in the middle of the roadway. Interestingly, in spite of the reasons cited by city officials to the public, in the press and during public hearings, public opinion remained strongly in favor of keeping the cars. However, city officials decided to sell them anyway. It definitely adds support to the theory held by many that there were alternative reasons for getting rid of the city's streetcars. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 742 Registered: 11-2003 |
It was fifty years ago - I wonder if there is someone around who worked in the city government who might be able to shine a light on it. There might be someone who is 75-90 years old who knows something... but where to find them? There are probably minutes somewhere in a dusty bin somewhere of council meetings, etc. Now talk about an interesting project for a paper or book, depending on what you find. Too bad I don't have the time for it. (Message edited by digitalvision on April 12, 2008) | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 896 Registered: 05-2004 |
Come to think of it, it was a trackless car on Grand River in the late 50's. | ||
Jgavrile Member Username: Jgavrile Post Number: 68 Registered: 09-2005 |
I had read that GM concocted the whole safety thing in order to sell the city ,Diesel busses, which they did. They pulled this stunt in other towns too. Chicago, I think , brought a law suite against GM for lying and for trumping up the whole scheme of getting rid of the streetcars. Read about it in the following websites.; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G eneral_Motors_streetcar_conspi racy http://saveourwetlands.org/str eetcar.htm http://www.baycrossings.com/Ar chives/2003/03_April/paving_th e_way_for_buses_the_great_gm_s treetcar_conspiracy.htm http://www.culturechange.org/i ssue10/taken-for-a-ride.htm The big 3 corporations in this town are always doing something evil. Whether its is getting rid of streetcars or getting rid of Union people and jobs. Never feel sorry for the car companies. Its all about greed and money. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1573 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: Don't believe everything you read, especially on Wikipedia or sites that have an ax to grind wrt GM. Bc_n_dtown's post number 69 is about the best and most succinct set of reasons for the demise of Detroit's streetcar fleet that I have ever read. quote: That evil GM sure made a mess of the Ren Cen and riverfront. (sarcasm off) | ||
Jgavrile Member Username: Jgavrile Post Number: 69 Registered: 09-2005 |
Well ,evil GM and Ford have sure made a mess of a lot of people's lives in this area sending most of their manufacturing and jobs to China. That Re- Center don't mean squat to no one if you haven't got any money or job | ||
Swede1934 Member Username: Swede1934 Post Number: 43 Registered: 04-2007 |
bc_n_dtown,I have to answer your post. Three of the four reasons for replacing the PCC street cars are pure GM Truck & Coach advertising hogwash. Costs - Much of the Woodward track was rebuilt right after the end of WWII. The overhead wires showed little sign of wear and rarely failed. Traffic Flow - Left turns were prohibited,but this actually improved flow. Buses, in having to move into and out of curb side stops were then, and are now, much slower than the street cars ever were. Safety - The wider streets, Woodward for example, all used barricaded stops to protect the waiting passengers. The narrower streets, Third for example, did used stops which were painted on the pavement. In most of these cases, the passengers would wait on the sidewalk, and only move out to the stop as the street car approached. I do not believe this resulted in any increase in auto-pedestrian accidents. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1582 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: The elimination of streetcars helped the flow of vehicular traffic on the major radial arteries because the center lane became a reversible traffic lane used for inbound traffic in the morning and outbound traffic in the afternoon. The reversible center lane increased peak traffic flow along Grand River by +30%, even with the curb side bus stops. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5912 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: It's too bad that common sense cannot be taught... Perhaps, listing some sources a bit critical of the bias of the Wikipedia is in order: Wikipedia Statistics Suggest Strong Liberal Bias Wikipedia Bias Examples of Bias in Wikipedia | ||
Transitrider Member Username: Transitrider Post Number: 54 Registered: 01-2007 |
Automobile traffic flow may have "improved" for a while, but once Grand River was functionally replaced for commuting by I-96, traffic flow on GR was so "improved" as to be nonexistent, which benefitted no one. The silver lining of the freeways is that there is plenty of room once again on the spokes for light rail. We don't need 9 lanes of cars on Woodward all the way to Birmingham and beyond, just take 75. But if you actually have business, friends, dining, entertainment or shopping to do on M-1, take the bus for now and eventually, take the train. Another tragic aspect of the loss of streetcars is the complicity of the DSR and city planners, some of whom genuinely thought the "flexibility" of a buses-only system was going to be such a great thing. These are the same geniuses who pictured play grounds and parks next to the freeways (see pictures in the Hall of Fame freeways thread.) They were wrong. https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/6790/43221.html?11608452 87 | ||
Hybridy Member Username: Hybridy Post Number: 241 Registered: 08-2006 |
haha its funny the boulevard project should be mentioned in front of u of d some of the more nostalgic pro-transit students have been able to salvage some of the rail portions from the median i'm sure they'll making nice art exhibitions in the near future | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 604 Registered: 03-2005 |
The last Detroit Street Cars were the 1936 PCC streamlined design(the street car company's association President's Conference Committee orangized this design committee). They were a vast improvement and quieter than their predecessors. While Detroit was late in adopting the PCC cars - not until the late the 1940's, there is a earlier Detroit connection. Detroit Edison Vice President and Director of Research Claude Hirshfeld was the chairman of the PCC Committee. detroityes.com carried a series titled "Streetcar Memories" that began on December 12, 2005 with many photos - I haven't checked the detroityes.com archives, but you should be able to find it using your browser and searching for Detroit Streetcar Memories. I found it by searching for Claude Hirshfeld. The Detroit Historic Museum has models of Detroit Street Railways (DSR) street cars from the 1860's horse cars through the "modern" PCC cars on exhibit in the Glancy Trains exhibit. These were built c.1951 by the late Robert E. Lee, who later was the curator of The Dossin Great Lakes Museum. Wikipedia has a lot on the PCC Car and those still in service. While like many things in wikipedia, it's hard to know how accurate it all is, since it's generated by its users. Bob Cosgrove |
