  Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5799 Registered: 10-2004 |
Poor **babies**, Sparty. We're so sorry for them while they're spending their parents' money or living off student loans and going to class once in a while. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 2192 Registered: 01-2006 |
It is ironic, that a bunch of snot-nosed, undisciplined, barely post-pubescent jack-offs are called, and think of themselves as, "Spartans." I'm sure it was very exciting. (I was going to write, "very heady stuff," but there's a potential double-entendre, there, of which I want no part.) High-drama, revolutionary moments of history-making civil unrest are always marked by chants of "show your tits," aren't they? | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 1017 Registered: 08-2007 |
It is one of life's truisms that students think they are gifts to society. It is part of their energy, their passion and since we're talking about MSU, their vim. Vim is the perfect word because it denotes a fresh outlook, an expansive belief in the possibility of possibilities. World is your oyster, sky's the limit, full speed ahead, bust a move, vim. Vim is the energy that brought you together at Cedar Fest. That belief that getting together for a few beers was ok. That a few more than a few was even better. Vim guided you out into the street to see the police show up and it might have been what led you to think that throwing a beer can into the police line was rather funny. Cops don't like funny. They don't play that shit, fool. Cops take funny and shove it sideways up your pimply ass. You aren't a goose and what you're laying ain't golden. It is a line of crap that is trying to justify an established pattern of alcohol fueled idiocy. As a student, everything is a lesson, apparently you missed the point from the police. Don't drink to excess. Don't gather together in vim fueled packs of bottle throwers. Don't invite the police to kick your ass. That means, when the police show up in riot gear, you leave. Quietly. Being a student is all about testing limits and pushing boundaries. That is what it must be. But the real golden geese are those old people that do all that boring stuff like own businesses and homes. The taxpayers are the golden geese, not you. You are an adjunct to a footnote on a minor point in a dissertation. The world doesn't give a shit about your vim. So unless I see footage of you and your fellow vimsters on the street picking up broken glass and crushed cardboard case boxes ... STFU. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 2194 Registered: 01-2006 |
Holy SHIT, Gnome, that was an outSTANDingly well-put commentary. Bravissimo! Or, as we say: What Gnome said. | ||
Silverbeauty Member Username: Silverbeauty Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2005 |
Well said Gnome! | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 623 Registered: 12-2006 |
RJK, As a person who was at several of the previous disturbances, I can honestly say that yes, the cops are a BIG part of the problem. In 2005, the cops were already on the street in full riot gear BEFORE the basketball game. I walked by a SWAT van with police suiting up as I was walking to the Buffalo Wild Wings downtown. This was a good 4 hours before that "riot" started. What people who haven't faced down a line of riot police don't understand is that their presence alone is an instigating factor. In 2005, when I saw the police in their riot gear that far in advance, I knew right away that there was going to be problems later. When you see the riot squads on the street that early, you know the cops are looking to pick a fight...and that's exactly what they did. They hit us right as we left the bar. Hell, in some instances they didn't even let people leave the bar before they gassed them. They fired tear gas rounds INTO Rick's American Cafe, a bar in the basement of a building along Abbott Road. They also attacked bystanders who were taking pictures. I know several people who were assaulted by the police and had their digital cameras smashed on the concrete. Moral of the story is that unless you have lived up here in recent years, you won't fully understand the building animosity between the student population of East Lansing and the community in general. The students are the economic engine that drives that town yet the city treats them like redheaded step-children. Does that give the students a right to act out in violence? Absolutely not. However, when an entire portion (and a rather large group at that) of your population feels unduly persecuted, you would almost expect confrontation. Lastly, Gnome wrote a very poetic statement. However, there are some errors. The students ARE, in fact, the golden goose of East Lansing. Without them, the city would be a shell of what it is now. While MSU students are not direct taxpayers, they certainly pay taxes. Where do you think the landlords who own all the rental housing get the money to pay their property taxes? That's right, the students. Who are the most predominant customers of the businesses along Grand River? Students. This means that the business they generate keeps the stores in downtown open, which keeps them paying rent to the building owners who then get to keep paying their property taxes. Students also get involved. How much local charity work gets organized and put on by college students? Students, even with their limited income, find ways to do a lot of good work. Sometimes it is through student organizations and sometimes through local religious communities like the one I currently attend at St. John Student Parish. The benefits that students provide to East Lansing are VERY real and VERY tangible. Not only do they contribute to the culture of the city, but they also contribute to the economy. The students are the goose that lays the golden egg...and the city is killing the goose. Work needs to be done on both sides, but until the city stops treating this block of the community like 3rd class citizens, the animosity (and sadly the violence) will continue to flare up. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 2206 Registered: 09-2006 |
I actually don't see people moving that close to campus and paying some $1,000 bucks a month. Who can do that? Likely the type of people who don't want to live that close to campus and its students. Though I must admit I liked the drawings of the new development but it doesn't look like something that belongs in East Lansing. And c'mon you non vimmers it was a big gathering that got out of hand when a few mostly non students started throwing shit at the cops. Thats all, the crowd did what they did and the cops did what they did and now its over except for the few dumb enough to get arrested. Not a big deal. | ||
Unclefrank Member Username: Unclefrank Post Number: 138 Registered: 03-2006 |
I know if my kids get arrested at school, it's a one way ticket to self support status. | ||
Alsodave Member Username: Alsodave Post Number: 1011 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well written, El_Jimbo, but I would argue that *parents* are the ones that are paying taxes and rent to E. Lansing. They're probably the main source of the money that is spent at local retailers. Also, if you know, in advance, that cops are going to be there in riot gear, why would you stick around? I was a bystander in Mt Pleasant during CMU's infamous "End of the World" parties back in the 80s, so I've seen the condition of those who faced down riot police lines. It might not have been your intent to write it the way I am interpreting it, but I see nothing courageous about drunken individuals "facing down" a riot squad. I would also argue that the student partiers are bringing their classmates down. Their actions can overshadow the works of the students who *are* involved with the community. I'm going to rewrite your last paragraph and say that until the *students* take responsibility for their actions, the animosity and the violence will continue. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4573 Registered: 02-2005 |
"Being a student is all about testing limits and pushing boundaries. That is what it must be. But the real golden geese are those old people that do all that boring stuff like own businesses and homes. The taxpayers are the golden geese, not you. You are an adjunct to a footnote on a minor point in a dissertation." Don't get me wrong, I think the students who stirred up trouble the other night are total f-ing idiots, but I don't like your logic here. They were not acting in their capacity as students here. The "taxpayers" aren't financing their weekends, nor financing their off-campus rents. Being a student (well, especially an undergrad) isn't a 24/7 job, just like being an accountant, salesman, or cop isn't a 24/7 job, and thus, it shouldn't define everything you do. From my understanding, the venue is not even very close to campus, it's definitely not state property, and it wasn't the university police fighting them. And if this occurred at a private school, I think we would put it on the same plane of stupidity as this incident. Furthermore, taxes are merely a subsidy for instate students, and they make up a portion of the total costs. So you can do the math and find that you're financing 75 cents of an instate MSU undergrad's education, and then yell at them for being stupid assholes on the weekend. It doesn't make much sense to me. Taxpayers would probably save more money by telling all those cops to stay home and not discharge tear gas. I wonder what the total cost of that pointless endeavor was? Perhaps they wrote enough MIPs in the first half of the night to cover the flash grenades? ...some college kids being idiots...cops [delusional ones that think they're fighting the L.A. riots or something] on power trips. That's all this is. On another note, did anyone notice on the Lansing State Journal's video how the cop on the loudspeaker kept saying "dis-speerse" instead of "disperse?" Oh east Lansing. And for once I agree with el_Jimbo. There is a much more complex (and constructively worked out) yet alarming distaste for UM students among Ann Arbor residents. In most respects, this distaste defies all logic, and should just be viewed as a generation thing, and jealousy because those 60 year olds (who are UM grads themselves often) can't go back to the South U bars and do other fun student stuff anymore...so they might as well bitch about it. Or it's people that seriously want UM to close shop and A2 to go back to being a quiet little backwater hamlet. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2178 Registered: 12-2003 |
Charge 'em all and the 28 who are students throw them out on their ass. IMO the cops and city aren't doing enough. This generation of it isn't my fault is truly sickening. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 6012 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm going to err on the side of caution here, and trust the police officers over the mob of drunk underage kids who are pissed because they're getting tickets for being drunk underage kids. Now, if it was a war protest, or a civil rights thing, maybe not, but wahhh I need to get more drunk isn't cutting it as a pressing social issue. | ||
Ohudson Member Username: Ohudson Post Number: 298 Registered: 09-2004 |
I would disagree Alsodave. With most students receiving financial aid, *parents* money isn't being used by your average college student. More like gov't money or money earned by a part time job. I was at the Final Four riots of 99(?) in Cedar Village and if this was anything like that one, I don't blame police. As the game against Duke became a blowout more and more people filled the streets. I then saw students with "MSU RIOT TEAM" t-shirts on. I saw the same students go to the freezer to grab frozen beer cans and head outside, I'm pretty sure those cops got a frozen beer can or two upside the head. | ||
Alsodave Member Username: Alsodave Post Number: 1012 Registered: 10-2003 |
Good point about financial aid, Ohudson. Slightly off-topic, too many students mess up their financial aid when they go to a "big" school (the distractions are too great), and end up at a community college trying to catch up on their academics, while working less than ideal jobs (and hours) to pay for their classes (and living expenses). Nothing wrong with a community college--many students benefit from the smaller setting before they move on to a four-year institution. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 6013 Registered: 10-2003 |
^ Not to mention the money you can save on classes, while still ending up with the same exact degree that others who went to the big college all 4 years get. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 1020 Registered: 08-2007 |
Make sure you post that video of all the Golden Eggs sweeping up the broken beer bottles. Once you do that, I'm sure the general voting and taxpaying audience will be more willing to seriously entertain your position. If you want to be treated as an adult, act like one. If you want to be trusted, be trustworthy. If you want respect, be respectful. Until that happens, your whining sounds like whining. It is the common misconception of young folks to think that old cats don't understand what is going on. We do. Been to the party, got the t-shirt. The problem is that the students at MSU have a lack of credibility, but even with that stain, most people understand that a minority of rabble rousers were to blame. However even the blameless are to blame. In a mob, 90% are just there to see what is going on. Bystanders. Lurkers. Innocents that wouldn't hurt a fly. But to the police, a mob is a mob. The job of the police is to establish order. That means arresting people who put life and property in jepordy. If an Innocent is swept up in the dragnet, if some poor bystander gets a snootful of teargas or gets pushed around, oh well. Next time don't hang around a riot and take pictures. El_jimbo, I know you are sincere in your outrage against the heavy hand of the police. No doubt the police treated everyone as a criminal. But you need to understand their point of view. They are just a bunch of guys that want to go home and kiss their children. They're not out to make your life shitty. They're just to fill in their time-cards, they aren't out to hurt anyone. It isn't in their DNA. You can't expect the police to wade into a bottle throwing mob and politely ask who has done good works at St. Johns. Life doesn't work that way. Everyone understands most students are nice people who only want to learn and have a little fun along the way. However, the bad apple adage applies because of the long and troubled history at MSU. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2181 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: I would agree and disagree. All undergrad degrees are basically the same. However a name school does carry more weight than a community college. A community college is viewed as an extension of High School not a true advance of higher learning. IMO, all kids should start at small schools for undergrad work. Allows for more hand holding and better college experience in my mind. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 6015 Registered: 10-2003 |
_sj_, what I mean was if you take some academics at community college that transfer to somewhere like State, then graduate from State, you get an MSU degree. There is no asterix on it that says "Took 32 credits at LCC". | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 335 Registered: 02-2006 |
El_jimbo - Your experience very closely matches mine. I graduated in '04, but was visiting friends living in Cedar Village to watch the game the night of the 2005 "riots". After the game, we noticed the crowds assembling outside, and naturally had to witness it first-hand. In retrospect, this probably wasn't a great idea, but I grabbed my camera and headed out. I should mention that we were all sober. Like El_jimbo, I witnessed officers gearing up for an ass-whoopin' earlier in the afternoon. Specifically, I overheard two of them in the 7-11 just off of Grand River (near Cedar Village) giddy over the prospects of getting to play riot cop. When you consider the attitude of the police officers, you can't solely place blame on the students. We couldn't even escape Cedar Village. By the time the "riots" were underway, all my friend and I wanted to do was get to my car in the Shaw parking ramp and get the hell out of Dodge. Riot police in full gas masks prevented our exit. I specifically recall one girl, in tears, pleading with an officer to let her leave Cedar Village, being told to "BACK THE F*** OFF OR I WILL HIT YOU WITH PEPPER SPRAY". Real nice, tough guy. We were all forced to retreat back towards the apartments. It was a damned war scene - clouds of tear gas, people crouched over, coughing, unable to see, yelling to find their friends. My friend and I made it back into my friends apartment, laying low until they finally let us go home around 2:00am. I tend to believe the riots would just go away all together if the police took a passive role. Rather than bringing in the helicopters, mounted officers and lines of riot police, suppose they took a "wait and see" attitude. I honestly believe it wouldn't amount to more than a few drunk people fighting in a crowd that would disperse in short order. Instead, it's a tense stand-off, and all it takes it one itchy trigger finger on the tear gas gun to spark the flame. If you want to call the students "punks", let's also call the aggressive officers "punks" for escalating the situation. | ||
Gene Member Username: Gene Post Number: 100 Registered: 10-2006 |
quote: "I tend to believe the riots would just go away all together if the police took a passive role." Then we would have, I think the word is anarchy. The most insane statement I have heard in many years. Heaven help us. You graduated? | ||
Sparty06 Member Username: Sparty06 Post Number: 77 Registered: 03-2007 |
Gnome, Sorry, the golden geese are the students. Guess what, the people who own businesses wouldn't have jobs if not for student patronage. The people who own rental homes would watch them sit empty if not for students. I'm an MSU alum so I have no vested interested in defending a bunch of idiot students in Cedar Village. However, that doesn't mean the ELPD and East Lansing city council are doing the right things or actually improving the city... because they are not. The students literally support that city, both culturally and economically... this is a fact. Furthermore, many of the students arrested were not MSU students (possibly a majority). To those on this board who haven't seen the ELPD in action trust those of us who have... they have absolutely no respect for the students and the results of this lack of respect are demonstrated by their actions. While I don't know exactly what happened during this particular instance I think these situations are created by the atmosphere of distrust that permeates East Lansing. Students are justly angry about their lack of voice and power in East Lansing decision making and there are systematic and institutional factors that prevent them from having more of a voice (transient population and lack of property ownership among others) and their frustrations with the police conduct boils over in unproductive incidents like this Cedar Fest thing. They feel powerless and like they have no voice so they vent their anger and frustration in unproductive ways. If the EL city council would sit down and actually listen to and implement student ideas I think much of this tension would dissolve. edit: One of the most telling aspects of this post should be all the people who are no longer MSU students who still feel strongly about the ELPD and East Lansing City Council. This should clue everyone else in to the fact that it's not just students being students and pushing boundaries.... something is really wrong with the way things are run in that city. (Message edited by sparty06 on April 07, 2008) | ||
Melody Member Username: Melody Post Number: 182 Registered: 11-2007 |
"This generation of it isn't my fault is truly sickening." Bingo. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2182 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: My Bad. | ||
Sparty06 Member Username: Sparty06 Post Number: 78 Registered: 03-2007 |
Melody, The generation of it isn't my fault truly is sickening isn't it? I see a generation of people, city council members, police officers, etc. who all refuse to acknowledge that they fuel behavior like this. I have never once excused the student behavior, in fact I've specifically mentioned that I feel the students who engaged in this were idiots... but this doesn't take away from why situations like this are created in the first place. It's not just all the students fault... or all the police's fault.. There are systematic factors that contribute to incidents like this and we have to systematically address these problems. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 1021 Registered: 08-2007 |
What is your great cause? Darfur? Iraq? Free Tibet? Oh, no, it's not "Free Tibet", it's "Free your Tits" and it's "Beer Bongs for Bozo". You want to be taken seriously, be serious. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 6020 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Large numbers of intoxicated people who have yet to reach a level of maturity to handle themselves in such a situation? | ||
Rushbuzz1013 Member Username: Rushbuzz1013 Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2008 |
Sad. I watched a tv interview of two MSU students on a brink of giggling. I think they thought it was fun. At one time, I would have sided with the students. Now, I'd like to boot a few out myself. | ||
Sparty06 Member Username: Sparty06 Post Number: 79 Registered: 03-2007 |
Gnome, I totally agree. If you want to be taken seriously, be serious. The problem is that when students are serious no one in East Lansing will take them seriously... this leads to unproductive displays like CedarFest. | ||
Club_boss Member Username: Club_boss Post Number: 374 Registered: 12-2006 |
“Between 3,000 and 4,000 revelers attended the event, according to police estimates.” Way to many people, the local government should have declared the gathering illegal and ordered them to disperse at 1500 people: 1. The crowd was highly intoxicated 2. As usual there were a high percentage of minors that are intoxicated. 3. The crowd has grown beyond the control and size of the local authorities. There were 52 arrests made/ 28 were MSU students, I think that’s over 50%. There were also 48 tickets issued/ about half the tickets went to students. “A total of 80 officers responded to the scene:” Nowhere near enough help, they needed a minimum of 250 officers. Try deputizing a few dozen local heavyweights. "'We want tear gas! 'We want tear gas'" Ashley Pixley, 21,recalled people chanting. Pixley, a Lansing Community College student, lives on campus with her fiance. "People were more excited about being a part of something," said her fiance, Kraig Foreman, 21, an MSU student. “the officers who entered the mob found themselves dodging an increasingly more frequent barrage of glass, cans and beer.” First beer can or bottle that gets lobbed at the police, the response should be tear gas, they want gas give them their wish. The local government is too reactive try proactive tactics. And since this is a po-dunk town, where Andy and Barney are the only two officers working the night shift, perhaps the local town government (Mayberry) should think about limiting the size of public events that have not obtained a permit. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 1023 Registered: 08-2007 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =xBEgjqylroE |
