  Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5957 Registered: 10-2004 |
Just replacing some buses with LRT or streetcars will not increase any appreciable number of jobs not directly related to the enterprise. I too could throw out some BS about job creation (or lack of same) that the city and its DY sycophants are doing here and elsewhere. But really, do you think that rebuilding some transit will enable Detroit to rebound? Twelve thousand net jobs are significant and surely would be noticed. But, simply throwing stuff against the wall in the hope that something will stick is running pretty thin, considering that most Detroiters with even lousy memories have all heard that nonsense time and time again over the past four decades. It's about time that you--the RT supporters baptize new converts instead of reconfirming the already confirmed... | ||
Jonnyfive Member Username: Jonnyfive Post Number: 125 Registered: 03-2007 |
"Just replacing some buses with LRT or streetcars will not increase any appreciable number of jobs not directly related to the enterprise." If new development results in more jobs (i'm not sure how it wouldn't...) then evidence to the contrary has been cited clearly and reliably here 100 times. "simply throwing stuff against the wall in the hope that something will stick is running pretty thin" Developing long-term infrastructure that has been demonstrated in dozens of other cities is throwing something against the wall and hoping it sticks? "It's about time that you--the RT supporters baptize new converts instead of reconfirming the already confirmed..." They will find the money to fund the the other 40% and the converts will come when the line is built. This is why they gave up on developing an entire regional network at once to instead focus on getting a single line down. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 453 Registered: 01-2004 |
Like many people on the board, I am cautiously excited. However, I have a few questions about this project. There seem to be a lot of stops for a rapid transit system. I guess I am envisioning something like the El in Chicago, but at street level or more appropriately, something like the T in Boston. That said, would it not make more sense to have something like 10? Also, 20 mph seems slow, but of course for safety reasons this may be the fastest they could go. Could it not go 40 mph? What are the reasons for this seemingly slow speed? | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1997 Registered: 12-2003 |
I don't know where you are getting the number from, but 20 mph is an average speed, including stops. Most LRT systems top out between 40 and 60 mph. I would imagine that in sections of Woodward south of McNichols, top speed would be 35 mph or so, north of there, it might be more like 40 of 50 mph. But this is really little more than a guess. As for the number of stops, there is certainly a trade off between access and speed. But to give you a Chicago example, on the Red Line between Wrigley Field and the loop, there are 9 stops, this is a distance less than 5 miles. But there are significant differences between what Detroit is proposing and what the El is. The El is a high capacity rapid transit system (heavy rail). Detroit wants to build a light rail system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L ight_rail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R apid_transit A good examples of similar system is Portland, OR's MAX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M AX_Light_Rail | ||
Flyingj Member Username: Flyingj Post Number: 165 Registered: 08-2006 |
Jsmyers, yeah what we have set up here in L.A. is pretty good & it's about to get better(they'll soon end up with the light rail commuting with the commuter rail, fine by me they've jacked up the commuter rail to an ungodly rate) I've ridden Tri-MAX in P-town, Sactown, Dallas system-heard mixed reviews about St. Louis-even Tucson has a mediocre trolley that goes a mile...the one that set off the light rail boom is the San Diego Trolley since it works but mostly because they did it for so cheap...they even took it thru one of their most prominent cemeteries(dunno how many bodies were relocated) | ||
Chris_rohn Member Username: Chris_rohn Post Number: 421 Registered: 04-2005 |
To respond to the 465 one way question earlier, the Woodward Limited service offered by SMART in the opposite direction is the 445/475 routes. They all have different end points in the suburbs, but most of the ridership comes from along Woodward between Birmingham and downtown anyway. | ||
Dbetts Member Username: Dbetts Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2008 |
Hello all, first ever post. To bring back an old issue raised by Gistock (I believe) and not really answered, does anyone know if the parade has been factored into this equation at all? For the record I COMPLETELY support light rail down Woodward, with the hope of adding more spokes of the wheel in addition to Woodward, rail into Oakland county, and an Ann Arbor to Detroit rail joining in and spawning a real reliable regional rail transit system. The whole concept makes too much sense. I'm a recent U of M grad and my buddies are the ones exiting all the time partially because we don't have this a transport system like this yet. I'm just curious if anyone has considered parade issues with any seriousness. | ||
Buzzman0077 Member Username: Buzzman0077 Post Number: 166 Registered: 11-2006 |
Welcome to the forum Dbetts. I do not have any idea on the parade. I am excited to hear about this, but I won't get my hopes up until it gets past the planning stages. | ||
Jonnyfive Member Username: Jonnyfive Post Number: 126 Registered: 03-2007 |
If they succeed in constructing light rail on woodward, I will not cry if the parade has to reroute. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1998 Registered: 12-2003 |
I know that the parade and LRT has been discussed here a long time ago. I don't know what URS or the city have thought. I would guess that the parade will get moved to an all-downtown routing, Last year the parade went from Mack to Larned: http://www.theparade.org/dbdoc .aspx?id=58 Maybe in the future it will go from GCP down to Congress or Jefferson, then take one of those streets for a few blocks in either direction. There are many possibilities: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms ?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=1107 83396714351599619.00044b7a54e9 b7ababbc3&ll=42.331821,-83.045 847&spn=0.011072,0.020084&t=k& z=16 | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 498 Registered: 06-2005 |
More good news from yesterday's announcement: the proposed light rail trains would allow bike roll-ons. This should provide more incentive for DDOT to get bike racks on their buses, especially those that would feed this line. This also would make it easier for folks who don't live Downtown to enjoy the Riverwalk. I have some additional information on the LRT plans and biking on my blog. http://www.m-bike.org/blog/200 8/04/22/detroits-light-rail-pl ans-accomodates-biking | ||
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit Post Number: 143 Registered: 12-2005 |
Back in 1926 the city did another transit study report. This one called for a subway system, elevated system and street system. It was pretty impressive. What's really funny is one of the proposals is the exact proposal being proposed now. Just 80 years later. http://www.gotdetroit.com/img/ transit/transit_study.pdf It's 11MB so it's pretty chucky. (Message edited by gotdetroit on April 23, 2008) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4168 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I believe that construction had actually started on some of the subway stations, before the entire project was squashed by the Great Depression. Immediately after that, you have WWII, and then the rise of suburbia. It seems by then, the extensive transit system had been lost in the collective memory. | ||
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit Post Number: 144 Registered: 12-2005 |
Interesting. Any idea how far along they got with the construction of those stations. It would be interesting if remnants of them were still under the ground somewheres. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4774 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have to be convinced where half that money applied to the Woodward bus line wouldn't produce better results. This means 24 hour 10 minute minimum waits, clean new battery-powered electric buses with shelters at every stop, posted and enforced times, a transportation security force big enough to make even the most timid feel comfortable, a fleet of express buses, free coffee and beverages, and minimum fee parking lots at express stops. Couldn't that be done for under $185 million, no wires and no tearing up Woodward for tracks? Make the buses work first. They will always be with us no matter what. For meaningful light rail, let's work on the getting the Ann Arbor, DTW, downtown line [new center at least] working. Unfortunately this sounds too much like the MCS as police station idea; more for consumption than reality. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4169 Registered: 10-2003 |
Gotdetroit, check out this thread: http://www.urbanplanet.org/for ums/Detroit-Subway-t18781.html Lowell, I understand your skepticism. But there is no way on earth a bus line can perform on par with rail, no matter how much money you dump into it. In the long-term, the operational costs of the bus would far exceed the rail, and the ride quality characteristics are severely limited. I say this as one who regularly rides both rail and bus, and it's no contest which mode I prefer. Light rail is going to be faster, for one, and since it's on a fixed guideway, is going to address your reliability issue. Less moving parts means less maintenance, and less friction means less wear and tear; we all know how pleasant it is to ride on a bus that's on the verge of a breakdown. Let's not forget that rail spurs investment, as other cities (most recently Charlotte, of all places) are seeing before their lines even open. When was the last time a business opened up because there was a sign on a metal pole in front of the building? What you seem to propose, however, is akin to bus "rapid" transit. Such a system is being implemented on Euclid Avenue in Cleveland as we speak. After 25 years of planning, what was originally a subway line will be 6 miles of "rapid" bus service--at a cost of $250 million, or about the same cost as a light rail system. | ||
Folk313 Member Username: Folk313 Post Number: 6 Registered: 01-2008 |
Lowell, Ann Arbor and DTW are of a scope beyond light rail, at least of this sort. As for your suggestion for meaningful light rail for a "downtown line [new center at least] working" first, isn't that exactly what this proposal is all about? I can understand the skepticism about the woodward rail, but can't see how it should linger beyond a few moments of doubt. streetcars will, i believe, be the saving grace of many cities' transport systems. if they worked sixty years ago, and continue to work today, even in the quotidian neighborhoods of cities proper, they can work today and they absolutely must work in the future. I have no doubts that sustainable, meaningful development will follow the construction of this very important asset. As for buses, they have a significant role to play also. however, it's time that Detroit make the capital investment to diversify its infrastructure. Woodward avenue is the right place to take the first step. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 648 Registered: 12-2006 |
Folk, I agree 100%. I also hope that one day, the light rail service can be expanded. With lines running down Grand River, Michigan, Gratiot and Jefferson (heading north). Perhaps an additional spur could be added to the Michigan line that would run down Vernor into the Mexicantown neighborhood? | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 343 Registered: 02-2006 |
For all of you who continually raise this subject on the forum, I have put the following on my word processor so I don't have to write it each time another harebrained and unworkable idea is hatched. I respect Danindc and his extensive knowledge of transit systems and their value. This area will NOT have rapid transit for two overpowering reasons. 1. Federal funds are a must for any rail system and the Feds will not appropriate any money to the political clowns of Michigan (Granholm, Stabinow, etc. in the state, and the City of Detroit politicos don't even warrant names to chuckle over their incompetence). Senator Carl Levin is the exception to this as he is widely respected by both parties. No fed money = no mass rail transit of any sort. 2. No one will ride in a public transit system in Detroit because of CRIME. Everyone wants to get where they are going safely. The lenient judges and juries of Detroit preclude this. Rail transit coming to this area is as likely as steam locomotives running down the center of Woodward. End of story. First written 6-2005 | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2213 Registered: 07-2004 |
Never ever saw anybody so proud of not having changed their mind in three years.  | ||
Greatlakes Member Username: Greatlakes Post Number: 190 Registered: 07-2007 |
El_jimbo, that's what they planned... ...back in 1926.  http://www.gotdetroit.com/img/transit/transit_study.pdf | ||
Greatlakes Member Username: Greatlakes Post Number: 191 Registered: 07-2007 |
I love the foreshadowing from page 3 of that report: quote: | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3035 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: Get ready to wipe that soot off your face. | ||
Jonnyfive Member Username: Jonnyfive Post Number: 127 Registered: 03-2007 |
"1. Federal funds are a must for any rail system and the Feds will not appropriate any money to the political clowns of Michigan (Granholm, Stabinow, etc. in the state, and the City of Detroit politicos don't even warrant names to chuckle over their incompetence). Senator Carl Levin is the exception to this as he is widely respected by both parties. No fed money = no mass rail transit of any sort. " How much you want to bet that getting federal funding does not obstruct this project? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5981 Registered: 10-2004 |
Lack of sufficient local capital and operating funding is the major stumbling block. Hell! Detroit has been cannibalizing its DDOT right along--fewer routes; shorter days for others; some buses are short (drivers playing hooky or buses unavailable) for their scheduled shifts, etc. Detroit is a financial basket case and poster child. | ||
Sparty06 Member Username: Sparty06 Post Number: 92 Registered: 03-2007 |
So how long until this thing is actually ready to use? Do the forumers really think they will break ground on this thing within 3 years or is it going to be decades before something happens? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5982 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:This mostly inactive debate dates back some thirty years, and all what came of that was the PM, twenty-one years ago. And most everybody must agree by this time that it too was a failure. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5941 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sparty, I suspect this proposal, having gotten further than any proposal in years, will be relatively close to schedule. Unlike previous attempts are the return of rapid transit, the current city administration has made this a solid priority, putting behind it substantial manpower, rather than a dream. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5983 Registered: 10-2004 |
LM was extremely helpful with supplying the forum with any details other than kissing the rings of members of the current administration. DTOGS expects ground breaking sometime during 2011, with 24 to 30 months for construction. That means that the proposed plan would come online no earlier than mid 2013, and it just might not be running until late 2014--according to DTOGS. quote: Still, there are some necessary items that must happen locally before any construction or before the feds cough up the 50% to 60%. Mainly, the feds must be convinced that there are means of support locally for it. That involves a lot more than some DY posters going ga-ga about some transit. Mainly, it involves money. quote: The newspaper article conveniently left out mention of state and local funding in its puff-piece reporting of the event earlier this week. For those, it included private donations and foundation support--a bit of a leap (of faith?) from the DTOGS reporting. It's quite possible that the reporters simply ran that story from redacted DTOGS reports. State and local funding could be deal breakers,considering the state and local economies, even without any possible recession. Furthermore, the expected $371 million initial cost estimate is expected to be fine tuned before any Federal approval is granted. BTW, the FTA considers a 20% cost overrun to be OK. So, keep that in mind when future cost estimates are issued. Don't be shocked if something like $450 million is the revised cost estimate, and it could likely go considerably higher once the project starts. That usually happens, notwithstanding DDC's assurances that it won't happen--because actual evidence of rapid-transit cost-overruns doesn't bear him out in that regard. | ||
Greatlakes Member Username: Greatlakes Post Number: 192 Registered: 07-2007 |
While others like to dismiss your "pessimism," LY, I appreciate your candor. |
