  Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3049 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: I thought the jobs had already migrated to the suburbs? quote: http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20080428/METRO /804280367/1409/METRO So is Detroit really doomed? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2225 Registered: 07-2004 |
Meh. Telecommuting is so 1995. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3050 Registered: 04-2006 |
^I was thinking it's more of a Friday routine after a productive Thursday evening happy hour. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2019 Registered: 09-2007 |
"Meh. Telecommuting is so 1995." Tell that to our un-hip Metro Detroiters. So either way, Detroit and the hopes for Mass transit loses.  | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2226 Registered: 07-2004 |
Haha. If you don't see the hollowed-out eyes of your co-workers on Friday morning, you're just not living.  | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3051 Registered: 04-2006 |
A bit hard to distinguish from behind my sunglasses. ;) | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2228 Registered: 07-2004 |
Drise: That's just how it goes. People who want vibrancy, mass transit, eateries, shops, density, diversity and quality of life leave. Chicago, New York, D.C., even little homogenous Portland, they all draw people away. The people who remain? They dream any little dream that allows them to brick themselves into their double-lot. So it goes, on down the line. As for you, Iheart: 4:20? | ||
Buzzman0077 Member Username: Buzzman0077 Post Number: 170 Registered: 11-2006 |
Wouldn't it make more sense that if the cost of fuel continues to rise, and people would want to live closer to work, that it would tend to push more companies to a central location. That way they would have a larger pool of potential employee's within a short commute. As opposed to moving out to the edge of a donut, and having fewer potential employees within a short commute? Maybe it's just me but the logic used in the article doesn't make sense. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2229 Registered: 07-2004 |
Telecommuting? It's a minor economic force to be sure. But, as you observe, Buzzman, it's one that won't push the kind of density I think many of us on this forum are interested in. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3052 Registered: 04-2006 |
A 4:20 happy hour would be a great idea... That is if the witches council ever truly ends prohibition. (Message edited by iheartthed on April 28, 2008) | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 172 Registered: 03-2008 |
No they got it all wrong. Telecommuting could really help downtown. Think about it. Not having to brick up your employees in little office cubicles and board rooms all day. That was what was 1995. I mean, they will still have offices, and their own private space, but they can also not waste time driving. They can spend more time with their kids, which will help us all in the long run (it's a big investment in our nations future, too. More time for parents to be parents). For the singles it's even better. They can get out of those stuffy buildings. They could do some of their work on the riverwalk or at our local downtown restaurants. Some of the more dynamic and innovative companies could even choose to hold meetings and brainstorming sessions in Grand Circus or Campus Martius. The places this is really going to hurt is Southfield, Troy, and other suburbs. Downtown should benefit if anything. People are going to want to be located close to work, and businesses are going to have to be closer together. While telecommuting is great for people across continents, it is even better for people who need day to day interaction. It gives them more options. People are going to eventually figure out how much better their life could be with density. I guess depression sells. Just my Two Cents. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2021 Registered: 09-2007 |
Sean_of_detroit, did you even read the thread or are you just dreaming? This is DETROIT, not Cleveland! | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 173 Registered: 03-2008 |
I really feel like I said to much in the following post to not get blasted. I would say more if I knew for sure I had it all right, but I know there are some flaws. A couple posts above gave me a little bit more confidence, as they touched some of the same points as below (I think in business, no idea or thought is completely original. They are all improvements on each other. If it is original, it's a strong indicator it's flawed or pointless). Okay, I am dreaming a little, but everybody has pipe dreams, I just try to make mine happen. I also did a really bad job of explaining what I'm talking about. Here's a little more detail on my point of view. I walk the streets of Detroit and see what the city could and will be. I've been trying to predict developments for years around here just for fun (based on market statistics and trends). I really think I'm beginning to get it down, as I tend to slowly be right more and more of the time. I am one of these people talked about in that article. I'm looking for a place downtown now, that has office space, retail space, and living space all in one. If both me and the article are right in assuming that this is going to become more and more popular, then this will be more and more common. I'm sure there are even some small industry jobs that could be safely combined with live space too(wood working shops, commercial kitchens, and so forth). So if you have a mass of people doing this, it won't take long until they realize the increased efficiency of being close together. It won't just be about buying a nice quiet house in the suburbs and keeping up with the Jones' anymore; They will be forced to take a business minded cost analyses of their situation. Small communities located around a small business retail and shipping hub will be the preferred model. Many places will appreciate having office supply stores and photo copy and mailing centers (along with pharmacies, lunch spots, etc.) close to home. It would make sense for entertainment to be located in these places too. I would even go so far to say that these new centers will eventually collaborate with the often laughed at idea of smart houses and smaller electric cars like the Current. (A brand that allows you to buy from a home fielder. Link: http://www.getkurrent.com/home .html ). If it does go this way (and I admit, it may not), then it is a very good opportunity for Detroit to rebound. One that we can easily be ready to pounce on (for a change). Detroit has the space and empty infrastructure to be one of the only American cities able to take full advantage of this. Detroit's rebirth is slowing right now (or stopped) because of the mortgage crisis. Developers have shelved their big projects because of that. Shelved means they are waiting for markets to improve. Go look at some of those designs at Twelve-25 ( http://www.twelve-25.com/ ) and even the Book Cadillac, and tell me they didn't have this all in mind when they made those plans. The failed projects in Midtown and other areas failed because they had no audience. Places like the Ellington and Mid Med Lofts didn't take this into consideration. There were NEVER any potential customers for those places from day one! Those ships were sunk before they ever left port. Go look at their websites. They advertise things like status, wealth and luxury. Seriously, where they trying to attract people from Northville with those? Yeah, right! No one is going to choose Midtown and Cass Corridor over Bloomfield Birmingham of Canton (whatever it's called now) if their primary concern is status. If these developers listened, they would have heard the naysayers point all this out from day one. Sorry, Detroit's just not there yet (key word is yet). Many of those types of people would get laughed at by their friends and coworkers if they moved to Detroit. Since they care about status, Detroit is not even an option for them. The other reason they failed was also a result of the mortgage crisis. Many people who want to go this route, either can't get a loan approved, or they aren't willing to take the increased risk involved. That is a sliver of the reason expensive lofts and apartments are doing great (such as Kales, Merchant's Row, and many others). People like those folks at City Bird are working from home in them. They aren't at all expensive once you just downgraded from paying for both an apartment AND an office/work space. I see something else going on here too. First, the above mentioned apartments are by nature, forced to be neutral in design and layout (appeal to everyone). Since developments have stopped, their is a growing demand for condos in the CBD. People who want to modify their space, can't in a rental. This is creating a pent up desire for condos, lofts, and houses. As soon as those people fix their credit, they are going to go buy. Lofts with movable walls would be a great idea for developers. Front door centric office space is another big one (Ellington and many other failures have their front doors open into the kitchen, making them hard to be effectively used for flex space. That was a fatal mistake for them in my book). Now, this is all speculative water cooler talk. I'm not telling anyone to go out and invest all their money into a Detroit flexible living apartment building or anything. I encourage everyone to do what they should always do, go out and find out what you can see for yourself. I might be wrong, if you find out I am, then prove it. But, this is what I see happening. One thing that needs to fall into place in order for all this to happen is better public transit. The fact that many others in the business community see this, is a very good sign though. Also, families are going to continue to choose single family housing over other options. If we can't provide better schools, cost of living expenses, and city services then families will continue to setup shop in the burbs. The families would probably like to be closer to these centers too. If we could just show them that we are actually trying to improve these things, some of them may give us a chance and come over and help. Heck, they already are judging by the rash of new people on this board alone, and that old Op-ed article (which not one person has posted a thought, idea, or solution on in over a month, BTW. I wasn't asking for praise! I was asking for suggestions and help, but I guess I tried). Once all that happens, you will see things improve like it did during the Super Bowl (but it will still probably appear slow). Everything right now is very much behind the scenes. DETROIT IS STILL MOVING! And before anyone mentions it, their are some obvious solutions to gentrification that would, and should include all members of our society. Also, for all you nay sayers; the reason I am posting this on a internet message board is simple really. There is always Gannon's karma points he often makes, but it's much more than that. I have my cards, and I know what I am going to try to play. I got my strategy. I do make bluffs and play hard, but the last thing I want is to climb that mountain and turn around and realize I'm all alone. That scares me more than anything else. I really wish I could say that without sounding fake. I guess all I can do is just try to prove it with time. I'm cheering this city on and "tooting my own horn here" because I really just don't want to be alone... Can I say that without being labeled as fake? Probably not. I guess I'll just have to not care. OR Am I wrong about all this rebirth garbage? Maybe I'm the one who needs to have things pointed out to me? What do you all think? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2240 Registered: 07-2004 |
I think you didn't read the thread. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5965 Registered: 10-2003 |
Here they are projecting decades into the future, when we have a hard time even making a credible yearly Census estimate in this country. I personally they are predicting a future far too grim for the central city, but regardless of whatever you or I believe the fact that this is a projection (not even an estimate) should give any thoughtful and critical person pause. This is one of many likely futures for the region, and probably the more grim than it should be outlook. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 174 Registered: 03-2008 |
Oh, Detroitrise, I haven't really kept up with them. Could you (or someone) post some links on whats happening in Cleveland? (It was a joke that was over my head wasn't it?) | ||
Sparty06 Member Username: Sparty06 Post Number: 99 Registered: 03-2007 |
For everyone who thinks these trends will result in businesses all congregating in one place downtown Detroit will NOT be that place if trends continue. Businesses will congregate in Oakland County (specifically places like Southfield and Troy) so people can be closer to where they live (the majority of the metro area lives out in the 'burbs). | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 175 Registered: 03-2008 |
No I did. We are saying the same thing right? I was trying to back it up? Grrr, okay, what am I missing? Yawn... Maybe I need to be getting more rest. Am I really not making that much sense? Added During Edit: Oh, and in response to Sparty, I agree. I think there will be more than one new center though. Oakland County will probably have at least one too. (Message edited by Sean_Of_Detroit on April 28, 2008) | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 176 Registered: 03-2008 |
Oh typo. My first post was supposed to say "you" as the second word; Not "they". Sorry, I was responding to some of the above posters, as well as the original comments like "I thought the jobs had already migrated to the suburbs?" My mistake. Should have proof read I guess. Sorry. LOL, I did read it all. God, it took me three read throughs of the topic and article just to catch what you guys were talking about. Sorry again. (Message edited by Sean_Of_Detroit on April 28, 2008) | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2023 Registered: 09-2007 |
Sean_of_detroit -Well, at least Cleveland is for regional cooperation in one growing CBD. They're even ahead of us in the mass transit department. Heck, at least they can lure a Wal-Mart (not particularly something to be proud of, but it's pity on a place that can't even get a Wal-Mart. Although, the city is a lot like Detroit, it's just going around the turn to recovery faster than us. -No, I was talking about "The places this is really going to hurt is Southfield, Troy, and other suburbs. Downtown should benefit if anything. People are going to want to be located close to work, and businesses are going to have to be closer together. While telecommuting is great for people across continents, it is even better for people who need day to day interaction. It gives them more options. People are going to eventually figure out how much better their life could be with density." Whoever thinks the 4 million people in this region will allow that to happen is out of their minds. Apparently, these 4 million people must like this lifestyle if we've been living it for over 30 years. "Why in the heck would we want to work in Detroit?", "Why would I ride the bus when it's an hour late and full of poor people?", "Shouldn't my attending Tigers games every season be enough?". | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 184 Registered: 03-2008 |
I guess I'm clearly out of my mind. Seriously, I haven't been able to find it for days now. I don't have the delusion that all of those people will want to live in Detroit again. I do however, think enough will move back to make it stabilize in the next decade or two (two at most), with one or more sustainable city centers. There are things happening in this city that I think the skeptics just aren't seeing. Time will tell won't it? I'll be happy to eat my words if I'm wrong. Edit: grammer (Message edited by Sean_Of_Detroit on April 30, 2008) | ||
Vivadetroit Member Username: Vivadetroit Post Number: 10 Registered: 04-2008 |
Detroitrise, Have you ever lived in Cleveland? Despite what might seem to be better on paper, it's not that wonderful and cutting-edge. I lived in Cleveland for 1 yr and it was hell. I moved back to the D since it was so horrible there. If you think Detroit is a hole, check out Cleveland. It's so ghetto it makes the D look like Disney. My co-workers who lived on the East Side were even scared to live there and they grew up there. First of all, Cleveland is luring companies (ie Wal-Mart) with mega tax rebates, to the tune of 40-50% less, like Detroit, but the CBD isn't doing much more than what's going on here. They have the same things as we've got in the Detroit Econ. Development and Detroit Renaissance. Things might appear to be big and awesome in CL because it's half the size of Detroit, size and population-wise. Just curious which Wal-Mart in the city you're referring to: The Wal-Mart built on top of a contaminated old steel mill and down the street from Mittal Steel, which is one of Ohio's top polluters, or the one built atop a former dump. This one was closed at least 4 times due to ultra-high methane levels - the methane detectors went off & shut the store. Good times. I lived near the steel mill one & enjoyed the yellow sulfuric dust that coated my car each morning. Super healthy. Yeah, they've got light rail and more buses, but you can't take it past dark cause you'll get mugged. I took the bus for 2 months but as soon as it got darker earlier, it wasn't viable. I've walked alone at night in many big cities and never felt threatened, but in CL, it's another story. It wasn't even an option. You try being polite, but if you don't give them money, they get violent. At least 5-6 of my coworkers were mugged walking to the bus. CL might be a fun place to visit for a weekend, but believe me, I'd rather live in the D, warts and all, than in that place. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11590 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sean - I really appreciate your outlook and reflections in your posts. No point, just wanted to let you know. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 790 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bingo, Sean. You got it. You're NOT going to bring in the Birmingham crowd or Canton or wherever, even vs. Royal Oak. I talk to those folks - they have no interest in the city, and want to create their urban islands there. You need to build something that is in the price range and built for the starter or mid-level; THAT is where the demand is. I do agree with Drise - you're not going to influence the 4 million people here, except on the edges. They LIKE their life. They HATE going to the city. I wish I got $5 for every time a client comes down and bitches about it, I'd never have to work again. However, I know for a fact that the hispanic community, the arab community, and others are making moves downtown; I know that there are a lot of really young folks (19-24) who have interest in the city as well. One of the reasons I'm glad to see that new building on Woodward for WSU is getting the people who go to WSU is a great way to build population. These folks graduate and like the city so much they stay - and the ball continues to roll. And those folks are going to want that Woodward mass transit line. We are not there yet - but it takes time, and it will be built with the strength of mostly new folks. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 2094 Registered: 11-2003 |
Nice mega-post from Sean up there! From the article: quote: Some comments on this: 1. One of the best things about the 8 Mile light rail line down Woodward is that it doesn't rely on "suburban support", it can happen without it if it has to. 2. IMO the role of the light rail line as a way to get commuters downtown is overstated. Metro Detroit doesn't have *that* high a proportion of people working downtown as it is. The light rail line will end up having several equally important uses, such as gradually growing jobs, residents, and retail at various points along the line, connecting to entertainment districts, connecting to Wayne State, and simply stabilizing the corridor. The light rail line is crucial to the future of the city, regardless of whether there are fewer people physically commuting to work in the future. |
