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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1775
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whether you agree or disagree with the reasons behind the strike, this is just giving companies another reason to not invest in Detroit and Michigan and another reason to set up shop elsewhere. This is the exact reason why VW will most likely not choose MI for their new assembly plant.
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Classico
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Username: Classico

Post Number: 78
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love how people read things in the news/media but are detached from the event.

Sparty. I never suggested people would be beaten. But do me a favor. Go down today and try to get an app. You wouldn't be able to do it. It just won't happen, and you'll walk away untouched as well. It will give you a nice dose of reality of real life people and situations. It won't happen. Give it a twirl. We'll see how your big shot message board persona will hold up. Just too funny. Wow, do you some of you actually operate within the real world?

But your all right. Just let the UAW bow down and let the Dauch get his way. Who cares if this paves the way for precedent of virtually no protection for unionized workers elsewhere. The reality of the matter is it sounds great on paper from AAM's side, but it will and cannot work in reality. This is coming from someone who realizes as well unions need to let go and work better with their respective companies, but Christ not let them rape their employ lees. My God. I'd be the first to tell you that alot of those people are overpaid. I also will be the first to tell you that most likely wherever you work you to are being grossly overpaid. College diploma or not. Like I said this should have been gradually taken care of over the past so many year. Not just dumping this into peoples laps all at once. Whether you think they should have been expecting it or not. It's not right.

Mikem. Thats what happens when you work for a non union shop. So basically your a gigantic fing moron. Great basis for comparison. Anybody willing to accept a cut like that deserves what they get. Nice to know your bent over and took it like a man. Talk about mindless monkey.

I also love the "If your worthy, go somewhere else". Wow unreal. The epitome of a non union conservative right here folks. Go rub one off with Dicky boy already. You realize alot of these guys that are in their 50's have had a lifetime of work whether previous to getting in at AAM outside being a mason...etc. This was their final destination before retirement. Why the hell would they start some place else. Ok, offer them a nice retirement package then I suppose. The young carnie type high school dropout I feel is the only type of person some of you are identifying with in this whole situation. There are tons of good working men that are near retirement that sure the fuck are not going to start over tomm elsewhere. What a insult. Would you????

Everyone of those people realize they need to take a cut. Some of the positions deserve a cut no doubt. But lumping everyone into that mix is beyond ridiculous. Some well qualified people working there that maybe shouldn't be making 35 bucks an hour to do there job, but 25-28 would suffice. Your right, lets continue for companies to just rape their employees further and create precedent for it.

It's alarming how many Non-Union neo clowns we have on this board. Whats even more ridiculous is how some of you slappys are making Dauch out to be a saint. Unbelievable.
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Karl_jr
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Username: Karl_jr

Post Number: 262
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Classico, Amen.
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Classico
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Username: Classico

Post Number: 79
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course I'll get the retort of how the employees have been raping the company this whole time.......blah blah. And you stand corrected for the most part. Although is it truly raping when these people were willingly offered these positions say 15 years ago.

Also, the comment on places like Pontiac being screwed because of the strike and the workers selfish motives. You do realize if those workers were not striking there jobs would already be gone and cut in half as well right? Thats the whole point in all of this.

Everybody and their sister and most likely your assess were trying to get in at a place like that. So I'm not sure whether the bitterness derives from having your application denied or just plain ole self-righteous union hatred, but these people do not deserve the fashion in which Dickhead Duach would like it to go down. Did something have to give? Sure. Could it have been handled before it got to this? Damn right. Blame the workers for this fully? Only if your rubbing one off with Dicky boy.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2208
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Everyone of those people realize they need to take a cut



Except the for the countless droves who want a raise, some even want their raise and benefits restored to previous levels including interest.

While many may work hard and understand the how hard is to do business and actually turn a profit the vast majority of union workers have no concept on how a business is run and how expenses impact revenues.

I have heard countless times about AAM never losing money, but yet they have posted loses in the last three years.

The problem is they are delusional and have created this mess and now upset that they are stuck in it and want to blame others.

It is their fault, but very seldom will you ever hear them blame their wonderful union and union leadership for killing their jobs.

quote:

Also, the comment on places like Pontiac being screwed because of the strike and the workers selfish motives. You do realize if those workers were not striking there jobs would already be gone and cut in half as well right? Thats the whole point in all of this.



No, since those workers are not AAM employees. you do realize that right? They are union employees exhausting their unemployment insurance, they will not receive any benefits from this strike. Infact when this is all said and done they will lose their jobs but no one at AAM will shed a tear for those union brothers and sisters.

(Message edited by _sj_ on May 06, 2008)
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Spartacus
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Username: Spartacus

Post Number: 299
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Wow, do you some of you actually operate within the real world?"

That's pretty ironic.
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 4550
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why don't you ask the guys in Pontiac how they feel about American Axle? You'll find some of them on the picket line, where they are making regular solidarity stops.

O what a wonderful workers paradise Michigan will be when we're all making $9 an hour with no health benefits.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2209
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Why don't you ask the guys in Pontiac how they feel about American Axle? You'll find some of them on the picket line, where they are making regular solidarity stops.



I have and they are not in support nor picketing. They are trying to make ends meet, not only hoping for this charade to end but knowing that in July when GM cuts another shift they will lose work and jobs. But keep on preaching that solidarity BS, it seems to blinding you from seeing reality.

quote:

O what a wonderful workers paradise Michigan will be when we're all making $9 an hour with no health benefits.



Because the rest of the non-union world, which is the majority btw, already makes this.

Keep on with your superiority complex and how everyone is an idiot and no works harder than a union worker and it will only you without a job.
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Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 776
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 8:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, no report-back on hiding places and "bar" behind the machine? Based upon what I've seen I say Dauch deserves a medal for putting up with a lot of expensive and non-productive Union nonsense.
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Mjb3
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Username: Mjb3

Post Number: 169
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alot of the guys in their 50s should have socked away as much as they could for the last 25-30 yrs, considering they are paid double what their true market wage should be.

Again the "entitlement" mentality, company owes me, etc. Company, government, owes you nothing. You are worth what you are worth in the market.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 1900
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Classico, you are my hero, "rub one off with Dicky"

That's so priceless!
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2216
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is priceless and tells a lot about the mindset of the workers and why they are in this situation.
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Cincinnati_kid
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Username: Cincinnati_kid

Post Number: 27
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

F-ck Dauch. That Bastard made over 10 million dollars last year, and you CLOWNS have his back??
Nobody is questioning the outragous salaries these executives are making. Let him take the paycut. You guys are unbelievable.
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 4596
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All the chickens in love with Colonel Sanders. It's a trip, isn't it?
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Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 793
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's "that bastard's" company, so why shouldn't he get a good pay day? Again, if the health of AAM is so hot and the biz so lucrative why doesn't the UAW buy it? Buy shares?
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Cincinnati_kid
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Username: Cincinnati_kid

Post Number: 28
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^ Just because he owns the company, doesn't mean he's entitled to rape the people who work for him. Does one person need 10 million dollars to live on? While he butt-f-cks his workers and demand they take a cut to 14 dollars an hour. You people that don't work for the Auto companies are always b-tchin and moanin about their pay. The wealth is suppose to be shared not monopolized.
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Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 795
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kid, Marxism died for a reason. Again: why does the UAW not just offer to buy AAM and then share that $10MM salary around to the prols? They could pay themselves $100 an hour.
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Ptpelee
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Username: Ptpelee

Post Number: 37
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 9:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I work for a supplier to AA and I can tell you they may NEVER open up at the Detroit location again. We are now sending our parts to a Non-union plant in Warren which has the tooling from the Detroit plant and is filling GM's orders. How do you think GM can reopen the truck plants? If I worked there I would be VERY concerned!
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2320
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting piece on the strike in counterpunch this week:

http://www.counterpunch.com/ma caray05202008.html

A Tough Union Battle
The UAW Strike Against American Axle

By DAVID MACARAY

On Friday, May 16, negotiators for the United Auto Workers (UAW) reached tentative agreement on a contract with American Axle and Manufacturing Holdings Inc., which, if ratified (the membership votes on it later this week), would end the UAW’s 80-day strike against the company. The union negotiating team has formally recommended the agreement.

The strike began at one minute after midnight on February 26, when approximately 3,600 employees from five U.S. factories walked off their jobs in protest of AAM’s plan to impose drastic, across-the-board pay cuts. The company initially wanted to reduce non-production workers wages from $23 per hour to $14, production workers from $28 to $17, and skilled workers (e.g., electricians and mechanics) from about $32 to $25.

Following two decades of give-backs and takeaways that steadily eroded the UAW’s core package (while executive compensation continued to soar), these staggering pay cuts were the final straw. Even though it’s a risky time be out of work—in the midst of a recession and creeping inflation—the membership nonetheless voted overwhelmingly to hit the bricks.

As far as work stoppages go, given its length, level of rancor, and overall scope, on a scale of 1 to 10 the American Axle strike was probably a 6 or 7. During the shutdown, the company’s CEO, Richard Dauch, ominously threatened to move its entire U.S. operation to foreign countries; and the UAW was accused of orchestrating a couple of “extraneous” strikes against General Motors plants, AAM’s primary customer, in hopes of drawing GM into the fray and thereby raising the sperm count. The union denies the accusation.

The 11-week strike has affected more than 30 GM plants nationwide, resulting in the loss of production, as of April 30, of approximately 230,000 vehicles. According to GM, the strike had cost the company $800 million in the first quarter.

AAM supplies GM with axles, drive shafts and other components for its SUVs and pickup trucks, the sales of which, in response to high fuel costs and a shaky economy, have declined dramatically in 2008.

In fact, it’s been alleged that this drop in sales was partly responsible for the length of the strike. Some union officials have suggested that AAM and GM not only were in no hurry to settle, but that they saw the shutdown as a convenient means of reducing inventory, and intentionally dragged it out. The companies deny the accusation.

In regard to hourly wages, it’s confounding and a bit frustrating to note how readily an hourly rate is misinterpreted by disinterested salaried (non-hourly) people. Maybe it’s just the way the numbers roll off the tongue, or the fact that most folks don’t take time to do the math, but whatever it is, an hourly wage almost always sounds “richer” than the annual figure it yields.

For example, salaried people who hear of a factory worker making, say, $14, often think that’s decent money, especially with the federal minimum wage being only $5.85. You tell someone that so-and-so makes $14 per hour, and they’re apt to say, Hey, okay, that’s not too bad.

But if a person works 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, and never misses a day, his $14 dollars per hour computes to only $29, 120. And if you tell people you make $29 K a year, you get a different response. Somehow, that figure seems less than $14/hour. In fact, they privately wonder how you can support yourself, much less a family, on it.

And when you tell someone you make $17 per hour, that sounds even more promising. Hey, $17 bucks an hour, not too shabby. But $17/hour is $35, 360 a year. That’s barely above the poverty line. Other than the guy making $14/hour, who’s going to gush when he hears that a full-time worker and head of household makes $35 K a year?
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2709
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where's the interesting part? It rehashes old news, followed by a blinding glimpse of the obvious that likely only the author thinks is worth four paragraphs.
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Gargoyle
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Username: Gargoyle

Post Number: 102
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This strike is a losing proposition no matter which way it goes. If the workers cave, their ability to contribute to the local economy is greatly reduced, their kids maybe don't get a higher education unless they are able to fund it themselves, and the overall local standard of living suffers.

If Mr. Dauch closes his operation, the effect is the same, except everyone will want to blame the "greedy union workers."

All workplaces, union or not, have slackers and screw-ups. And all workplaces have rules in place to deal with them. If your workers are sleeping or drinking on the job, enforce your rules and put them in the disciplinary process. If such behavior is tolerated on a daily basis, management has no one to blame but themselves.

I never cease to be amazed by the callousness often expressed on this forum toward other people's plight. The idea that factory workers deserve whatever their bosses choose to dish out to them is backward and dangerous. If it's okay to shaft the factory guys, then it won't be long before it's okay to shaft everyone. Do we really want a return to the sweatshop mentality of earlier generations?

Ford instituted a two-tier wage system in their last UAW contract. New workers get $14 an hour, increases subject to a wide variety of factors. Older, high seniority workers were offered severance packages of varying amounts, with and without benefits. Certainly a more benevolent and humane way to cut their labor costs.
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 206
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Every nation except maybe the United States has recognized the value of manufacturing. We seem to have demonized it.

Who here doesn't look down upon a "shop rat"?

But why won't anybody recognize that while the "shop rat" may not have the educational credentials that so many of us revere they more times than not make up for that with resolve. But all many of us want to refer to are the "rats" that goof off on the job. And the vast majority of the urban legend stories that some of us use to defend their shunning of local products, well the truth is those stories are mostly lies. After all nobody wants to hear stories about how some guy busted ass getting the job done while working at a tedious job.

But before you say that these AAM workers are "getting what they deserve", ask yourself why do other countries conspire (and the word fits) to take jobs like what are at AAM and move them to "their" country?

We really are too stupid to see what we are doing to ourselves.

The concept of a "service economy" is a complete fraud.
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Gargoyle
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Post Number: 103
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Angry_dad, you said it better than I did.

And I love the people who rant about the discounts offered to autoworkers when they buy a vehicle.

Almost all companies offer employees some sort of discount as an incentive to purchase their products. Why all the rancor against the autoworker?

And despite what an earlier post claimed, they are not huge, profit-stealing discounts. As the recipient of a Ford "A" plan I saw my purchase price for my truck drop from 31k to 28k, which is about 10% if my math isn't faulty. I'm also certain that Ford wouldn't give their employees 4 of them a year if they were so damaging to the company's bottom line.

But I don't need a discount to buy a Big 3 car. The "A" plan just induced me to buy a Ford instead of a Chevy. When Chrysler was tanking in the early 80's I bought one of theirs. I felt it was what I could do to help keep my neighbors working. Too bad no one thinks that's important now.
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Firstandten
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Username: Firstandten

Post Number: 197
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 12:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The sad thing about this strike is that its not about whether workers are good or bad or if they deserve the pay that they get or not. What we are seeing is a fundamental restructuring of the auto manufacturing industry. What its coming to is that if you think you deserve $30/hr for what you do , you will need to find a city and/or industry were you can get that. This situation is not the typical union/management contract dance that we are use to seeing all our lives. Times are changing right before our eyes. To the union workers I say take your skills and move somewhere were you can get close to what you were making. Or if you are young enough, upgrade your skills.

You have a point when you say management makes too much compared to the workers. I don't know if they still do it but some Japanese companies didn't allow the CEO to make more than 10 times what the lowest paid worker would make.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 1905
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 9:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

....and some have claimed "if running a for profit company was so easy why doesn't the UAW step in and buy it?" Truth be told there are a lot of employee owned companies that do very well. Isn't Miller Welding systems one?

I would like to throw out my own challenge. If living on $14 per hour is so easy, why don't any given number of us or Dick Dauch, give up our current jobs and accept a $14 / hr. position in its place.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 1474
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Shop rat" is a term created by the fresh out of college morans to make themselves feel more secure in the big scary place with the experienced tradesman that make fools of them everyday.
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Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 802
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^I was at least one of those who asked that question. And I truly wish that the UAW had bought the plants. As owners they would have paid themselves the right wage or have had to shut down. I have enough faith in humanity to believe that in this alternate world the UAW would have begun slowing its own gravy train at least 20 years ago.

Dauch won't have to live on grunt wages because his skill is in demand. The consequence of being a bolt-turner is that anyone, anywhere can perform the task. The ability to assemble capital, develop product, and manage all processes is a rarer combo.
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Mjb3
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Username: Mjb3

Post Number: 173
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think what people resent most about unions is not that "good" workers deserve to make $15-20/hr. It's the fact that unions protect all workers, even the slugs. Whereas in private sector(read at-will employees), when cuts come through(every other yr or so), the bad apples are broomed out.

Also, the work rules are ridiculous. That's why the asians will pay the same wage, but will never give up control of the plant. At Toyota, if they need you in paint Monday, unloading trucks Tuesday. You go where they send you. At Big 3, they say "not my classification" and file a grievance.

If the Big 3 had mgt with cojones, they would do what Caterpillar did yrs ago and tell UAW we're going to compete in marketplace. Take it or leave it. Caterpillar is cleaning up right now due to weak US dollar. They export all over the world.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 1906
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Dauch won't have to live on grunt wages because his skill is in demand"

I have to wonder how demandable his skills are seen by his customer, GM, who had to shell out $200 million to fix his mess.
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2711
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I would like to throw out my own challenge. If living on $14 per hour is so easy, why don't any given number of us or Dick Dauch, give up our current jobs and accept a $14 / hr. position in its place.

Who said living on $14/hour is "so easy". There's a reason why most people try to improve their skill set to allow them to make more money and have more options. The fact is that basic unskilled manufacturing work is not a high-paying job.

You seem to think that pay ought not be set in the marketplace for one's labor skills, but rather by some subjective sense of what one "needs" to be paid to "live".

I've got a challenge or two for you.

Create a successful auto supplier out of some ancient money-losing plants that no one wanted. Do so while paying your employees double what the market will bear. Survive despite an economic downturn and a crash in your primary segment (full-sized trucks and SUVs).

Or if that's too ambitious for you, start any kind of company and pay your employees double the going rate or whatever they think they need to make to live rather than what will allow your company to make a profit. Good luck with that.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 1907
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I've got a challenge or two for you.

Create a successful auto supplier out of some ancient money-losing plants that no one wanted. Do so while paying your employees double what the market will bear. Survive despite an economic downturn "

And do it all by forcing my employees to work for $10 bux an hour while rewarding myself with a $10 million per year salary and flipping the bird to the American economy which continues to go down the toilet. No thanks, I like being able to sleep at night.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2327
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Marx used to comment about how strange it was that a system that churned out ordered products milled to fine tolerances contrasted to the upheaval of the market, where it was filled with the "cries of the victors and the groans of the fallen." That is not up for discussion. What is up for discussion is the need for givebacks, takeaways, and what the ferocious turmoil of "the free market" requires.

I'm no Marxist. I just wonder why some people are so eager to prove old Karl right. :-(
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Alan55
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Username: Alan55

Post Number: 1693
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sure, Craig, that since the "gravy train" has ended at one of its principal suppliers and the wages have lowered so much, GM will certainly be reducing the price of their $32,000 pickup trucks to $20,000.

BTW, if AAM was losing money, than Dauch wasn't doing such a good job of "managing processes", was he? Maybe he should cut his compensation by 40 percent also.
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Track75
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Post Number: 2712
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, Cambrian, some folks "do" others complain and make excuses. The owners of American Axle elected directors. Those directors felt it prudent to give Dauch the comp package he gets to run a $3B company. It's not your money, unless you're a stockholder of AXL, in which case you get to express your desires during the next proxy vote.

Now, if YOU want to try your hand at providing high-paying jobs to others, go for it. Otherwise you can just sit on the sidelines and whine about the world.

Alan, you're aware that the other (profitable) American Axle plants were subsidizing the money-losing original GM axle/foundry plants, right? Maybe Dauch deserves a raise for getting their costs closer to being competitive? It sure wasn't easy, but it got (mostly) done.
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Kevgoblu
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Post Number: 110
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course GM's not going to lower the price of a pickup. One of the major reasons GM needs to source competitively priced components is not only to pay the CEO an excessive salary, but to continue paying all its retirees. Your aunts, uncles, grandmas and grandpas.

But I guess GM could have done like United and Delta and filed bankruptcy. Then they could have cut the pensions to all these retirees without having to negotiate with the UAW.
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Detroitnerd
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Post Number: 2328
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know, when it comes to "getting things done," I think we should maybe just get rid of ineffective people like Dauch and install somebody like Mussolini. He'd send blackshirts out into the picket line, beat them into submission, jail them at Hamtramck Stadium, and have the factory up and running within days, with people grateful to get their $10 an hour. Boy, we'd be competitive again! That factory would no longer be in danger of moving. And all it would cost us would be our civil liberties and livelihoods. :-(
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Craig
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Post Number: 804
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not as simple as that, Alan, but I understand your point. Let the economists chime in now with insight re: the relative price of vehicles today vs. the past. Then enormity of GM's corporate debt is staggering (many, many billions)and the legacy costs of retiree benefits & health care (has that been fully unloaded yet?) are killing the profits. Further, it's not a secret that profit-per-vehicle has crashed in recent years (e.g. "value-based pricing," cash-on-the-hood). Salary give-backs will help, but won't save the Big Three.

re: sleeping at night - give me a break. Successful (not saying lucky) people give up a lot of sleep; first while in school and training, and then while working. A production guy can go home at 3:30, but the management/capitalists people are almost always on: days, nights, weekends, etc. Blue collar is out on the boat while the white collar is writing reports and blackberrying. Guarantee that there's no drinking going on in Dauch's office during the day - say the same about the shop floor?

btw - Big Three had it partially right in the mid/late '90s with big bonuses: spread the wealth to all (remember $7k years at Chrysler?), but pull it in when times are lean.
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2713
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

You know, when it comes to "getting things done," I think we should maybe just get rid of ineffective people like Dauch and install somebody like Mussolini. He'd send blackshirts out into the picket line, beat them into submission, jail them at Hamtramck Stadium, and have the factory up and running within days, with people grateful to get their $10 an hour. Boy, we'd be competitive again! That factory would no longer be in danger of moving. And all it would cost us would be our civil liberties and livelihoods. :-(

Detroitnerd, when you fill up the gas tank do you pay the $3.99/gallon or do you hand over $8.00/gallon? What?? You pay the going rate, not double the going rate? Why?? Why do you transact with such naked greed and lack of concern for those who'd love to get your $8/gallon?


Blackshirts, Mussolini, blech. Saving the "Hitler" card for the next post?
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Detroitnerd
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Post Number: 2329
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You could argue that, if we hadn't plunged into two wars in the oil fields, I already AM paying twice what the going rate would be.

To compare consumer choices with business choices is facile and -- frankly -- uninteresting. Challenging economic orthodoxies is probably too much to ask of this thread.

As for blackshirts, that's what they did. They crushed labor. Big business loved Mussolini. That's why one American newsman called fascism nothing more than "big business with bayonets." So, if fascism begins when government and big business merge into one, we're practically there, pal.
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Craig
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Post Number: 805
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The guy who puts a little frowny face in his post believes that this thread isn't grown up enough to debate difficult social and economic alternatives? Excuse me while I step out to the para-site.
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Track75
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Post Number: 2714
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The fact remains that you choose not to pay double the going rate for something (gas) yet you think a business should for something (labor). I'm very sorry that my comparison of choices is facile and frankly uninteresting for you. It is however, on point.

If you actually see close similarity between Mussolini's fascism and the AAM strike settlement then your perspective is rather distorted. I'm not sure what that portends for rational discussion on this thread.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2330
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're not reading what I'm writing, Track. But that's OK. :-)
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Track75
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Post Number: 2715
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I sense you obliquely pining for a discussion of the nature of our economic system, but that's a wild guess.

Perhaps you could write more clearly? Communication is a two-way street.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2331
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We've come up with no better way to organize our lives than around the crooked craps table, with goons to enforce the bets. It's a failure -- a sad failure. There must be a better way.
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Cambrian
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Post Number: 1908
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 2:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Track misses the fact that all though these plants were supposed money losers while under direct control of GM and Ford, it was a far superior system as there was only one set of share holders to keep happy, one UAW Contract and only one set of execs to pay, now you have multiple. And the only way they can turn a profit is by taking jobs and money away from the US economy, which is only a temporary boost. Obviously spinning off Delphi and Saginaw was a bad idea. How many times has GM had to come running in with Billions to keep these supposed stand alones afloat?
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Track75
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitnerd, while totally disagreeing with your assessment of our system, I wonder what's the even better way?

Here in our short lifetimes we've witnessed the greatest uplifting of the poor in world history. Hundreds of millions of people (see China, India, others) are now living middle-class lives thanks to global capitalism. Not due to communist or socialist economic systems, not due to UN mandates or foreign aid programs, but due to bare-knuckled global capitalism. Not a pretty system, not a perfect system, but an effective one. Throw that out in the interest of "fairness" or "egalitarianism" and you throw hundreds of millions back into poverty.
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Detroitnerd
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Post Number: 2332
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For every person who "has" under the system, they create others who are made poorer, so I'll say it's a wash. Besides, those countries were once poor and independent. Now they're poor and DEPENDENT.

In many ways, globalization is just a continuation of the colonial project.
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Track75
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Post Number: 2717
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cambrian, having the axle, Delphi and Saginaw component plants in-house was better than cutting them loose? I've never met another person who believes that.

Their cost structure was so much higher than their outside competitors that GM had to pay to get rid of many of them, just as AAM and the Big 3 are having to pay their current employees six-figure amounts just to leave and not come back.
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Track75
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Post Number: 2718
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitnerd, it's not a "wash". That assumes a pie of fixed size, if one has more it's because one has less. That's clearly not true.

"Now they're poor and DEPENDENT." You seem to be ignoring the historic increase in prosperity and well-being occurring among hundreds of millions of people in poorer countries. Don't you see it?

Trying to shift to some argument about dependency and colonialism avoids the facts about the greatest decrease in poverty ever (and it continues). I'm surprised you seem so blasé about the improving conditions of so many people in poor countries.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2333
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Track75: That's a lot of spin and happy talk. That's what happens when capitalists play at remote anthropology. There's another thing globalization has in common with colonialism: The old white man's burden. If you really believe that, then I urge you to sit back, relax, and believe that you are improving the world. But don't be surprised when people disagree with you.
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Mjb3
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Username: Mjb3

Post Number: 174
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dnerd,

What's with the goon references? Unless, I missed the part where Dauch called in the Burma junta to quash picketers.

This is negotiations in a market economy. If you don't like it, walk. Oh wait, that's right AAM workers can't get jobs making fraction of current pay.

You keep referring to goons. Noone is forced to take any of these jobs.

Your worth is what you are worth in the economic marketplace. No more, no less.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2334
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Your worth is what you are worth in the economic marketplace. No more, no less."

Who's going to enforce that? :-)
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Mjb3
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Username: Mjb3

Post Number: 175
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 4:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the market...

supply and demand: the only law never broken...
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2335
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a mythological view of the world. In reality, those laws are enforced with truncheons and jails.
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Mjb3
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Username: Mjb3

Post Number: 176
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know, I know. And the proletariat will turn the plowshares into swords...and storm the petty bourgiouse in the bastille. And we'll have a workers paradise. I think I've seen this movie.

Can't buy in, sorry.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2336
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Won't buy in" would be more accurate. Enjoy the denial. ;)
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Steelworker
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Username: Steelworker

Post Number: 1097
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I make in the seventeens and its not all the hard but it would be a lot harder if i was the only one paying all the bills. Now its just me and the girlfriend, in our new home. I am worried now, my company always follows what other companies in the area do in labor negotiation. So currently i make the same as a UAW worker at AAM. I hope in two years they don't try to give us a paycut. We already have a crappy wellness plan from BCBS.
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Cincinnati_kid
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Username: Cincinnati_kid

Post Number: 29
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^^ Don't hold your breath, Steelworker. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't suprize me if the UAW reopens the contract before it ends in 2011 and make us remaining employees who are grandfathered in under the old contract, take a paycut. I can see this happening after July 1, when the people taking the buyouts are scheduled to leave.

(Message edited by Cincinnati_kid on May 26, 2008)

(Message edited by Cincinnati_kid on May 26, 2008)

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