Discuss Detroit Archives - January 2008 Humor My Little Business Sprawl Rant Please Previous Next
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 810
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 11:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So I've had it, and I don't know where else to turn but Lowell's virtual kitchen table (after all, the tough, tumultuous dicussions happen in the kitchen - the living room is for polite conversation as I remember in my family).

I was out and about the past few weeks, and had a series of discussions with people moving their businesses from Royal Oak, Detroit, Troy, Sterling Heights... to Wixom. To Auburn Hills. To Romeo. To Lake Angelus or White Lake. Apparently, Troy isn't far enough away.

I just don't get it. I have worked with businesses for years. I don't like paying gas costs. I don't like being around nothing else, none of the services I need, and not having a place I can walk to get a drink to release some stress. I don't think it's a wise investment of a business owner's time to spend 2 hours in a commute.. nor make your employees travel 45 minutes or longer each way when they used to travel 20.

I'm starting to think it's the business community that is a big part of the fault for sprawl, as people follow jobs first and foremost, because I know of about 14-15 companies in two months making this move.

I don't understand leaving a perfectly good location or area to go out to BFE, and I'm seeing a very disturbing trend the last few months that in a down economy, the people expanding are doing so in the worst way for us as a region.

Those employees are going to eventually move even farther out with their next house. It's inevitable, perpetuating the sprawl problems we "enjoy."

This all seems just crazy to me - but my logic seems to be flawed as the trend is clearly toward moving even farther away and I must be missing something as that's where the business seems to be moving to.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 4211
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 11:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What are the reasons they give for moving?
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 1824
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 11:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Suburbanization happened everywhere. One of the reasons it happened to the extent that it happened in Detroit is that the jobs moved too, so that Southern Oakland County became the commercial center. Well, now that essentially created a new downtown, and there will always be people that want to live 20 miles from "downtown." So then you have the leapfrogging effect. And on, and on.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4302
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 11:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't get it. It would seem to me that there are certain geographical advantages to being located closer to the "core". Among these would be proximity to clients and other related businesses, not to mention taking advantage of existing transportation infrastructure. This just doesn't seem to make much sense. I'm curious too--what reasons did they give?
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 812
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 11:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thinking back to the answers I got (some may not be real as it was discussion in polite company) when I could ask/it was appropriate... no particular order, think of it as more of a "reason cloud."

Taxes, insurance, ability to own their own building/property they could do what they wanted with, security, status, trying to attract different clients, accessibility, being perceived to be in a high-growth area, easier to get to, right off of a freeway.
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Daytwa
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Username: Daytwa

Post Number: 20
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 11:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's taxes silly
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Daytwa
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Username: Daytwa

Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 11:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and property costs
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1261
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 11:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We created the sprawl. We elect people who do things that encourage it. If the Detroit Water and Sewer Department did not have lines extending to Wixom, nobody could build major developments there. If the Michigan Department of Transportation did not widen the highways near Wixom, nobody could get around near there. Please understand I'm not picking on Wixom, substitute "Canton Township" or "Chesterfield Township" or your favorite sprawlburb.

At first, taxes are low in the sprawlburbs, because the early move-ins are businesses, which pay more in taxes than they require in services. Later the subdivision builders come, and the residents demand more in services than they are willing to pay in taxes, which drains the tax base. So the community tries to raise taxes, and the businesses travel further along (once we've built the necessary infrastructure, which we always do, without fail).

You fight this by refusing to accommodate it: don't build the infrastructure beyond where it already exists. Cities like Portland (OR) have done this by establishing boundary limits beyond which urban-style services will not be provided. In metro Detroit, though, we won't do such a thing, so sprawl marches on.

Remember, the jobs and people can't move beyond where we put infrastructure. So we are to blame. To quote Walt Kelly's Pogo, "we have met the enemy, and he is us".
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Daytwa
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Username: Daytwa

Post Number: 23
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 11:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

nicely done, professor
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 288
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 12:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Digital Vision, you have no idea. I get to drive all over our metro area weekly. Majority of my clients are in the exurbs or farther. My primary residence is Detroit, but I am barely ever there. I'm working hard to move everything to the city, and am trying very hard to convince some friends to move their businesses into the city

I really hope to make a statement with that website I talked about in earlier posts. The personnel consolidation I'm doing will at least get the attention of some that are closer to me. We'd all be making so much more money by being located near each other.

One business owner I know who owns an electrical service business simply charges a travel fee for people in the exurbs. I'm seriously going to have to either start doing that too, or just drop a few of them. My guess is that most will not be willing to pay extra for getting services out into the middle of nowhere. I hate to turn customers away like that, but it's just getting to ridiculous and expensive.

As to why so many are still moving to the exurbs; I really think it's flawed logic. Many of their employees are complaining about traffic for one. From what I have seen, they try to beat this by moving further out, thinking a reverse commute will help. They don't realize that people are eventually just going to move out with them into an area that has no infrastructure means to support them. Also, to many business owners are doing this, adding to the problem.

The other issue is that they know nothing about Detroit. Downtown is another world to some of them. All they know is what they heard, and what they have heard is seldom good. To some, downtown isn't even an option. That is another reason that every move to downtown, big and small, is a big deal. It's business owners going against the flow, and making others think outside the box. Detroit for the suburbs is often outside the box. It shouldn't be, but it is. I'm very excited about the moves that Quicken will inspire. That's a big one.

These are all educated guesses I'm making here. I know this doesn't make sense, but it is the view I see people take in the suburbs and satellite cities. The sad part really is how often I've seen the exurbs become a last resort for many. After that move to the exurbs, the next stop is sometimes out of state.

Edit: Taxes are another big one. That problem is being helped by tax brakes though. For many, if they gave Detroit a serious look and compared it to the suburbs in a detailed cost analyses, they would see that the city is on par with the suburbs on price. Add to that the employee quality of life benefits and other factors, and the choice is obvious. Most aren't even considering Downtown or New Center. That is the bigger problem.

(Message edited by Sean_Of_Detroit on May 08, 2008)
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 12716
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 12:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am restructuring my fees to my hifi clients as well.

I am going to undercut my competition with labor a bit, then charge for travel.

It will be a structured fee. Anyone living off a major SMART line will get the lowest costs...those with ONE connection will be next.

Then it will get wild, UNLESS they can find people in their neighborhood to share the costs...that is the best way to encourage multiple people on one trip.

I also have clients across the country and I will do it the same way off Amtrack railway lines. This is the ONLY way I can see to position myself against further gasoline raping.

Occasionally I will fly, but very rarely.


I will pursue MOST of my clients within the CBD and serve them famously...my other businesses will all be centered in my loft. Most of them I will not have to leave to perform at all.


Cheers!
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Alan55
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Username: Alan55

Post Number: 1657
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 1:34 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are all trying to reason why a business moves "farther out". Actually, from the business owner's prospective, it's the other way around.

10, 15 or 20 years ago, many of these owners bought their 11-acre farmettes out in Bruce, White Lake, or Superior Townships. They then built their 5,800-square-foot French Revival chateaux with the 3-car attached garages and free-standing two-car garages, 1/2-acre pond with the pontoon boat, and 2-stall horse barn for Tammy's registered quarter horse. For the last 10, 15, or 20 years, these same owners have been driving 30 or 35 miles in to their businesses in Sterling Heights, Troy, and Livonia, every day.

Now that business has slowed in general, they are all downsizing from those 15,000 square foot commercial buildings closer in and getting 10,000 square foot buildings 5 or 6 miles from where they live. They're saving on building rent and utilities, and cutting down their personal commute by 80 percent at the same time. (The fact that their employees now have to commute from Dearborn or Detroit to northern Macomb County doesn't phase them.)

When in doubt, follow the personal interests.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 1128
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 2:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm... I'm hoping for $10 per gallon gas to put a permanent end to this stupidity.

BTW, I was in Portland recently... great city but I drove around the suburbs for 4 hours and they've got a ton of sprawl notwithstanding the good PR.
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 511
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 10:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I don't get it. It would seem to me that there are certain geographical advantages to being located closer to the "core". Among these would be proximity to clients and other related businesses, not to mention taking advantage of existing transportation infrastructure. This just doesn't seem to make much sense. I'm curious too--what reasons did they give?"

Dan,

The basic problem is there is no "core" in Detroit right now. Without discussing all the old arguments again, it's still very simple.

For your direct question, there are fewer clients, geographically, downtown than in the exurbs and suburbs. There also is little in the way of infrastructure downtown that is somehow superior to outlying areas. It's not like Detroit has a subway or light rail system yet.

Further, the services provided by Detroit are not in line with the taxes paid for real and personal property, on the income of employees (resident or non-resident). You pay more, absent special incentives, to locate in Detroit than in Wixom. Special incentives take a lot of work and planning that many small businesses don't have the resources to utilize.

Add to the pot the level of bureaucratic inertia, the cronyism, the corruption and it just creates more impediments to a business. I'm not saying these factors don't arise in the outlying areas but they seem amplified in Detroit.

Bigger businesses can often deal with these issues. The real question that needs to be asked though, is not why are they moving to the exurbs and the suburbs but rather, what does Detroit need to do to put itself on an even playing field to compete with those areas.

It doesn't have much right now that the suburbs can't offer in better terms except fabulous architecture.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11640
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 10:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UMCS - That may be correct regarding Detroit but the issue is about businesses leaving suburbs with fair taxes and good services to somewhere even further (or is it farther) out.
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 512
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 11:29 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was addressing Dan primarily on his questions.

As for the original question, tax differentials probably do play a partial role in the relocation of businesses to exurbs (Southfield is still more expensive than Wixom).

I happen to think though, it may be because the owners and employees of smaller businesses are moving further into the exurbs and the business follows them. Just an opinion though really, but it seems population growth is higher in the exurb areas like Livingston County and Macomb County. Business does follow population movements and it's probably catching up to trends from the last 10 years.

I wouldn't say they are moving to BFE though, because I don't see that small, rural communities like Chelsea, Lapeer, Davidson, or Casco are getting a lot of businesses moving their direction. It seems that businesses are sprawling out further into what are the newer suburbs of the metro area.

It could be for any variety of reasons though. Digitalvision may want to ask those business owners why they made that decision. I'd posit that it has more to do with personal reasons than it has to do with any desire to get "far enough away."
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 816
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 11:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And that's what I'm confused about myself...

As much as I am a Detroit supporter and have invested in Detroit, I can understand why it might not be for everyone.

I get that, I can respect it. And frankly, some business types the downtown isn't ready for yet on the curve. Another thread is where I see the huge opportunity for the whole city if there are slight changes in the current environment... but that's another thread.

What I don't get is the trading one suburb for another. I think Professorscott makes some really great points; the political reality of enacting them is another matter because those community governments, sometimes despite their residents, want that growth to increase their tax base.

I do not think it's about "bad times;" the businesses I speak of are all hiring and expanding. I think between them they've probably added 150 jobs in the last year, and revenues have, in general, doubled or quadrupled for these companies. These business are not hurting. They're growing, and they're choosing to grow in the hinterlands. Their owners are moving, too, from south of 14 to places like Fenton and Oxford.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 4305
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 11:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UMCS, I understand your points as far as they pertain to downtown Detroit, although downtown is still an employment hub, and the road infrastructure there is far superior (maybe not maintenance-wise, but layout-wise) to that found in Southfield and Troy, let alone the sticks.

I beg to differ, though. There is a core, of sorts, in Southeast Michigan. Unfortunately for Detroit, it's in Southfield and Troy. I simply don't understand why you'd want to relocate *further* from your customer base and related businesses in an era of increasing energy costs. This does not seem very smart.
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56packman
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Username: 56packman

Post Number: 2254
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 12:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drive through the industrial parks in Livonia, Farmington Hills, Southfield and other nearby suburbs and see haw many buildings are vacant or being used as "Miss Brenda's school of dance", or in the case of the building I worked in, storing motorcycles, uses that are decidedly third-tier uses.
Yet they keep building in BFE as the local communities out tax-break each other.
I think Alan55 hit it correctly.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 3080
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 12:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is the song that never ends. It goes on and on my friends. Some people started singing it not knowing what it was, and they'll continue singing it forever just because...
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Raggedclaws
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Username: Raggedclaws

Post Number: 180
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 12:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Digitalvision, the answers/reasons that you got were all legit and could make perfect sense in each particular circumstance. What part of that do you not understand ?

The bitching and whining is endless.
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Spacemonkey
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Username: Spacemonkey

Post Number: 558
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 12:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where the hell is Wixom?
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 2085
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 12:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Where the hell is Wixom?"

All I know is it's west of Twelve Oaks on I-96 (where the big old ugly Ford Plant is).
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Spacemonkey
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Username: Spacemonkey

Post Number: 560
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 1:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 818
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 1:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Go to Novi via 96, add a couple miles north/northwest. About 40 minutes from downtown without traffic... Google says it's 33 driving miles away from Campus Martius.

(Message edited by digitalvision on May 08, 2008)
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 6535
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 1:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is unfortunate for employees. I worked in downtown Royal Oak, now I work in Bingham Farms. What do you think I liked better? There is NOWHERE for me to walk to here. There isn't even anywhere for me to DRIVE to that is actually nearby. This is a terrible place to work. I would love to go back to Royal Oak, or Ferndale or even Birmingham. It would be nice to take a walk during lunch again. Now I can either walk around the parking lot, or take a nice peaceful stroll down the side of Telegraph. Great!
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 2070
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 1:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Where the hell is Wixom?



that's where wixom public television is located
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 434
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 1:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aside from being on the right side of the free trade debate, I remember Ross Perot saying the first thing he would do when elected was change all the tax incentives for building on brownfields, inner ring burbs and finally virgin farmlands. The little guy with the big ears actually had some very good ideas.
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Vivadetroit
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Username: Vivadetroit

Post Number: 17
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 12:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The main problem is the racism issue. I lived downtown for a while & none of my friends in Oakland or Macomb Counties would come visit. Why? It's dangerous, it's full of muggers, etc, they said. So, I drove them down and they were floored. It wasn't scary after all.

If you don't wander out of your comfort zone, you'll never know. And that's the mindset we'll be battling as we try to improve/build Detroit. These people grew up, kids of the white flight in the 80s, in the burbs and heard "horror" stories from their parents/grandparents about how "dangerous, ghetto, etc" Detroit is. And they never went down for themselves to see if it was really that bad. Now, they're instilling this in the next generation.

And to them, only poor people live in Detroit. I actually had one person say that when I was looking for lofts. Moving further north or west out of the D means you're not poor. Let's hope we can revert this mindset!
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Vivadetroit
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Username: Vivadetroit

Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 12:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

btw, Digitalvision, did you ever live in Greektown?
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 6572
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 12:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's true Viva, but even so, there are places other than Detroit that are much better than Wixom. Like I said, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Ferndale, Plymouth, etc. are all great places for your employees to work. They can walk to lunch, they can celebrate finishing a big project with their co-workers by walking to a bar for a quick drink after work, or they can sit on a city bench and people watch during their breaks. It's like giving a sort of bonus to your employees just by deciding to locate in that type of environment.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 1421
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 1:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Viva, the crime stats do not parallel your anecdotal evidence. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 515
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 1:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alan55 got it right. For most companies, the CEOs don't really think (or care?) about what their employees need. They want the company located where it's convenient for them and their commute. If they live out in the sticks then they want the company located with a reasonable distance. They don't want to commute anymore than most people do. The problem is that by locating out in the exurbs, they're forcing their employees into long, energy draining commutes and at today's gas prices, an expensive commute. I think we're actually approaching the tipping point where people are no longer going to be willing to pay in time or dollars for commutes that exceed 45 minutes or 30 miles. There are people who won't want to move or don't have a choice for their particular profession but I think more and more people are going to say "no more" and when those employers can't find people to fill those jobs, they'll have to rethink their locations.
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Vivadetroit
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Username: Vivadetroit

Post Number: 19
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 1:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sstash, oh I know Detroit can be dangerous, I am not some pollyanna. I reviewed the crime stats before I began looking at housing in the D. and I've lived in more dangerous places than Detroit, so I know you've always got to be alert & street-savvy.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 3089
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 1:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

For most companies, the CEOs don't really think (or care?) about what their employees need. They want the company located where it's convenient for them and their commute. If they live out in the sticks then they want the company located with a reasonable distance.



I think a lot of companies make location decisions based on where they can attract workers.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11647
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 1:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

think a lot of companies make location decisions based on where they can attract workers.



In most places. Sadly business sense and sound logic doesn't tend to apply in the State of Michigan. We are so ingrained in our prejudicies and beliefs (and system that rewards companies from leaving Detroit, RO, Ferndale, etc) that what applies elsewhere isn't typically the case here.
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Mwilbert
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Username: Mwilbert

Post Number: 218
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 2:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe Novine is correct when he says that we may be reaching a tipping point--younger workers are less inclined to live out in nowhereland, and nobody wants to pay to drive around so much, so I don't expect things to keep sprawling they way they have.

But you really can only say that a trend is over when it has been over for a while, so we will probably not know for sure for at least another several years.
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Ron
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Username: Ron

Post Number: 369
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 3:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A friend of mine was recently attempting to apply for a position at American Axle, at some location fairly far out (don't know where). The on-line application required her to start with her zip code. When she entered it, the response she got was that she could not even apply, as it would have more than a 40 mile commute, one-way. This was for a $10/hour job. Guess they figured that anyone living too far wouldn't make any money, given the price of gas.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11654
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 3:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds illegal to me.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 6581
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 3:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was thinking something similar Jt. Especially if certain Zip codes raise those red flags, like, I don't know, Detroit, Pontiac...
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 516
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 3:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Sounds illegal to me."

Why?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11657
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 3:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds discriminatory to me. I would think that it is just as illegal to refuse to hire someone based upon color, sex, etc.

Of course I am not an attorney and have pretty limited knowledge of the law. Just sounds like it is an arbitrary means to turn away otherwise qualified people.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 6797
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 4:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Johnlodge, I used to work at the 30700 Building in Bingham Center. Although the area is NOT pedestrian friendly, and it certainly is a drivers nightmare at 5PM... but you have so many cool options for lunch at that place.

You can hit one of the delis along Northwestern or 12 Mile, go to Buddy's or Shield's, Merriweathers, Friday's, etc. There's also one of my favorite places over on Lahser called Athens Suvlaki, a great Greek restaurant. And then you're only 1 mile from Franklin Village where you have the old Main Street store (for carryouts), and the Franklin Cider Mill for in the fall. Or just taking your bagged lunch from home and driving around the hilly terrain in the Franklin area, it makes for a nice bucolic respite away from the office.

For lunch time... I miss Bingham Farms... but for the traffic... forgetaboutit....
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 821
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 4:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ron/Jt1 - hear me out on this one, as much as you're attached to the situation and I respect that.

It is a problem if you can't get to work on time all the time, and living 40 miles out pretty much ensures that you won't.

I used to do a 35 mile commute, and no matter how hard I tried, I was late once a week for reasons out of my control.

Not to mention, you can't really afford to own a car at $12 an hour according to some studies, and driving 40 miles plus for $10 an hour means you're not making much money for the employee, so they won't have much impetus to stay on, which is again dicey for the employer because they are going to need to invest in the employee to train them to do the job.

That is an honest employer concern that has a lot to do with job performance... I think it different than other concerns. Being gay, being black, being a woman, etc. etc. does not affect job performance in my book - being late does.

If your friend had plans to move within the radius before taking the job or something, I would call them and tell them the situation and try to apply that way.

Sometimes, it's a wonder what happens when you pick up a phone - I've gotten to talk to all kinds of people just because I asked to.

Viva - sorry, didn't live in Greektown when in the city :-)
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 6587
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 4:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

For lunch time... I miss Bingham Farms... but for the traffic... forgetaboutit....



You are not kidding. I have to turn onto telegraph out of here, and then try to get across 4 lanes and do a turnaround so I can head south... THROUGH the good' ol mixing bowl onto 696.

Royal Oak had plenty more lunch options, and none of them required getting in your vehicle! But I will give kudos to Buddy's because that place is great.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 519
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 5:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last time I checked, there's no law that says a business can't use where you live as a basis for hiring or not hiring you. If they need you to be available on 10 minutes notice and you live 40 minutes away, what law says that it's discriminatory not to hire you? The only exception I know to this is that local governments can't have residency requirements. But they can still insist that you live within a certain distance of the government if that's a requirement of the job (on-call firefighters is one example).
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Eric_c
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Username: Eric_c

Post Number: 1210
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 6:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If that were the case, why couldn't the rules be written to say you have to live within 8 miles of Downtown to be a cop, etc.?
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 6595
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 7:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

If that were the case, why couldn't the rules be written to say you have to live within 8 miles of Downtown to be a cop, etc.?



Detroit had such residency laws at one time. Some cops would keep a cheap house in the city to have the address, but live in the burbs. Eventually it was abolished.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 2096
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 7:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Detroit had such residency laws at one time. Some cops would keep a cheap house in the city to have the address, but live in the burbs. Eventually it was abolished."

Well a residency law for civic services in the city could only do 1 of 2 things.

-help the city (a gain in population)
or
-hurt the city (a loss of excellent workers)
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 520
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 8:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"If that were the case, why couldn't the rules be written to say you have to live within 8 miles of Downtown to be a cop, etc.?"

They can be but such a rule is subject to contract negotiation and for police and fire, arbitration. Unless the city could justify such a rule, an arbitrator is likely to toss it out.
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Otter
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Username: Otter

Post Number: 158
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 12:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do know that Chicago has a residency law for all city employees...

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