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Otter
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Username: Otter

Post Number: 162
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 6:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From the things I see written, I sometimes wonder if the "WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA" set ever gets out to see what the rest of the country is like. The "true americans only drive american cars" thing was like arriving in another world when I moved here. It's been a losing argument for 30-something years now.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11710
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 6:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I sometimes wonder if the "WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA" set ever gets out to see what the rest of the country is like



I wonder if their mantra is considered with their othe rpurchases. Does the 'WDYDA' crowd buy the cheapest clothes regardless where they are made, look for best deals on furniture, etc.

The truth of the matter is that the 'WDYDA' crowd is for the most part hypocritical with the vast majority of their purchases.

Angry_dad - What guilt is this you speak of? What percentage of your possessions (beyond a car) do you seek out domestically made goods? Do you support local food companies, manufacturers, etc?

The 'WDYDA' crowd is as hypocritical as they come.
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Jiminnm
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Username: Jiminnm

Post Number: 1649
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 6:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wash_man asked for a definition of a foreign car a ways back and I have seen no answer. I think the mix is so great that any definition is arbitrary.

Angry_dad says "buying a GM, Ford or Chrysler supports more Americans than buying any Honda, Toyota, Nissan." My question - is that really true? If a Honda is built in Ohio, the profit from sales does eventually go to Japan, but employees' wages and benefits stay in the US, property and income taxes are paid in the US (employees and corporate), I expect a fair of suppliers, etc. are American, local businesses are supported by the plant and the employees, etc. If a Chrysler is built in Canada or Mexico, the opposite is true. Which is of greater benefit to the US?
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 203
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 7:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What I buy has nothing to do with hypocrisy.

http://articles.moneycentral.m sn.com/Investing/JubaksJournal /HowJapanSankTheUSmarket.aspx

Get it straight, what matters is that corporation are at war with each other. And what they want is what we have to spend. When corporations from some nations are given an advantage by governments, there is no such thing as fair or free trade.

The truth is the Japanese got themselves in economic trouble in the late eighties, early nineties. And to bail themselves out, they did what our Fed is doing right now. They cut rates. Do you know what our rate cut has done for us? Though we haven't seen it all yet you will see price increases. On more than just oil, on everything coming in. Well imagine if we ran a trade surplus and cut rates to a five percent of what Bernake has cut them to. It's exactly what Japan did. Their central government acted in control of the banking industry to defend manufacturing when it was threatened. Yes for the majority of the last 12 years, corporations used a rate of a tenth of a percent for capital. Of course it was great for consumers here.....until the bill comes in. And guess what? The bill is here.

Don't call anybody a hypocrite. Call the people what they really are, cheated. Our watchdogs in Washington that are suppposed to defend all of us, didn't. You see those collected idiots from both parties have known about the risk they were taking by allowing and borrowing from nations with DELIBERATELY deflated currency. When they do that, they are undermining the value of our currency. It's as stupid as the current stimulis program. It is a subsidy that we all get to pay whether we want to or not. You just haven't figured it out yet.



And I do buy local.

Yes as much as I can.

The fact remains and is proven. Japan has been and continues to manipulate currency. I don't blame them but I do not care for their bald faced lies about denial.
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 761
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 7:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I do love to drive through a Walmart parking lot and see all of the UAW and Buy American stickers on cars. I get a wonderful laugh from that everytime."

Yes, it is VERY funny. Especially on "American" cars that aren't built in America.(Fusion, Impala, 300C, Aveo, Equinox, etc.)
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Hugh9269
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Username: Hugh9269

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 7:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am not saying GM doesnt care, but you threw out a link about Honda that they dont. I am purely replying using your exact source on the web.

In regard to Japan manipulating its currency,
Our Fed sees it differently:

http://www.forbes.com/markets/ feeds/afx/2007/07/19/afx393175 7.html

It really comes down to if the Big 3 made cars back in the 80's and 90's that American's wanted to purchase we would not be having this discussion.

Top Selling Midsize cars in 2007

Vehicle 2007 Sales

1. Toyota Camry 193,900

2. Honda Accord 153,431

3. Chevrolet Impala 144,541

4. Nissan Altima 114,318

5. Toyota Prius 76,747
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Hugh9269
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Username: Hugh9269

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 8:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Really now, are these transplants so great? Are they paying Americans as well as Japanese?"

The American Auto executives sure take care of themselves vs the Japanese:

GM CEO Rick Wagoner earned $9.3 million in salary and bonus in 2006, nearly double what he earned in 2005.

Ford's new CEO, Alan Mulally, got $27.8 million in salary and bonus in his first few months on the job, including an $18.5 million signing bonus.

Last year, Toyota's top 37 executives earned a combined $21.6 million in salary and bonuses, according to filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

At Honda, the top 21 earned $11.1 million, combined, in salary and bonuses, SEC filings show

http://www.usatoday.com/money/ autos/2007-10-09-auto-exec-pay _N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Sounds like buying American is padding the CEO's wallet to me..

(Message edited by hugh9269 on May 13, 2008)
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11713
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 8:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angry_Dad - I agree with what you are saying about the enequalities and Washington's lack of care about the industry.

I just like messing with the WYDDA crowd. I have never bought a foreign car and all of the cars that I have bought have been assembled in the US with a good % of components made in the US.
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 204
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 9:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No manipulation?

This chart from the Bank of Japan says it all in black and white:

http://www.economagic.com/em-c gi/data.exe/bjap/ehdis01

To put it simply, yes there is.

Honorable executives?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/busi ness/2006/may/10/motoring.usne ws

At least the Detroit executives are spending here where it does you some good.

http://lfpress.ca/cgi-bin/publ ish.cgi?p=228101&s=wheels

Any corporate culture that screws the workers like Toyota is trying to do in Ontario, are they really worthy of anybody's trust?

For some reason I don't see any response from Hugh about any of the articles.

But it's the truth.
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 590
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 12:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angry_dad...when it hits them in the wallet harder and heavier every day maybe the light will eventually come back on. I hope it isn't too late for America.
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Kamesan
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Username: Kamesan

Post Number: 4
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 8:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everybody - Occasional reader here, rare poster - You're all getting lost in the "bread and circus" here. I've worked for many auto companies around the world, the game is the same in all countries. None of these companies are our companies, none of these companies are American companies either. For instance, Ford is mostly financed and operated by Sumitomo Corp. (Bank) of Japan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S umitomo
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11720
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 9:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Buy America - Still not answering such a basic question:

What exactly do I need an excuse for? Enlighten me.
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 591
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 9:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In my opinion, the "Big 3 have been the cornerstone for the working class citizens here in the U.S. since the first Model T came off the assembly line.

The middle class would be non-existent. It's happening today, there will be the rich and then there will be the poor, no more middle class.

Profits from sales of U.S. automobiles stay in the U.S. Foreign automakers do not provide the type of salary, benefits, pension plans that the Big 3 have provided for years. The test for the Americans working in foreign plants today here in the U.S. will begin when these people begin to retire, then it will be obvious how the foreign automakers take care of their employees.

I know that there have been mistakes that the Big 3 have made throughout the years of production, but the bottom line is that as Americans, we need to support our own before supporting China or Japan or whomever. Just look at what is happening because of the fallout of American plants closing. Is Honda or Toyota coming over here and taking care of our citizens now? I don't think so.

I don't want our country to be a second class one. I want our country to be respected, and it's not anymore. Our dollar value is shameful, why is that? People need to start looking for ways to support the U.S. I will do that as long as I can, in whatever ways I can. Buy purchasing one of the Big 3 I know that the profits from that sale stay in the U.S. and support American workers.

I want to strangle people who are driving around in their Hondas or Toyotas with a "support our troops" sticker on the back bumper. What hypocrites they are. Just look back at WWII and remember what Japan did to us.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11721
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 9:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Foreign automakers do not provide the type of salary, benefits, pension plans that the Big 3 have provided for years



And in doing so they have brought about their own demise.

quote:

we need to support our own before supporting China or Japan or whomever



Do you and your WDYDA lackeys also apply that do other industries. I find it comical that the biggest 'buy the Big 3' supporters don't tend to consider other industries.

quote:

want to strangle people who are driving around in their Hondas or Toyotas with a "support our troops" sticker on the back bumper. What hypocrites they are.



Are they hypocrites if they work for Toyota/Honda or a supplier that is in business because of Toyota/Honda?

I am curious what % of your clothes are made in the US? Toys for your children? Canned food?

I agree that we need to support US companies to the best of our ability but one thing the WTDDA crowd often ignores is that there are domestic industries beyond cars.
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Awfavre
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Username: Awfavre

Post Number: 250
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 10:04 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pardon the interruption. My post doesnt address the current debate, but I thought Id interject, anyway, since its about GM & the RenCen.

Gannon mentioned GM putting up the new ad on the RenCen center tower & asked what it was for. I snapped a few pix yesterday. Its for GMnext.com. http://www.flickr.com/photos/a wwordynerdy/
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Hugh9269
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Username: Hugh9269

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 2:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The test for the Americans working in foreign plants today here in the U.S. will begin when these people begin to retire, then it will be obvious how the foreign automakers take care of their employees"

Well most Americans dont receive pensions and they manage to save for retirement through savings and 401K type plans.

"Honda is interested in the needs of its associates. Our comprehensive benefits program, which includes health, life, disability, paid time off and retirement plans, is designed to provide associates and their families with the resources needed to take care of themselves today and in the future"

This is pretty much what most employers provide to their employees.

"Just look at what is happening because of the fallout of American plants closing. Is Honda or Toyota coming over here and taking care of our citizens now?"

Poor products, management and not paying attention to the American consumer is the reason for plant closings.

Yes Honda and Toyota are investing in the U.S. Toyota a new SUV plant in Mississippi and Honda a new car plant in Indiana. BMW, Mercedes Benz, Kia, VW and Hyundai have recently built new plants or have one coming online in the new few years in the U.S.. That adds to the bottom line of the U.S. economy through taxes, suppliers, employees, construction and local investment.

"I want to strangle people who are driving around in their Hondas or Toyotas with a "support our troops" sticker on the back bumper. What hypocrites they are. Just look back at WWII and remember what Japan did to us."

Well Americans drive Hondas & Toyotas you need to get over WWII. GM owns Saab of Sweden and they were neutral in WWII. GM is partners with Toyota in building cars in California. Ford owns Mazda of Japan. This is worthless talk in a Multi-National world economy.
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Hugh9269
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Username: Hugh9269

Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 3:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Honorable executives?"

I dont condone harrassment in any form, shame to hear that.
"Any corporate culture that screws the workers like Toyota is trying to do in Ontario, are they really worthy of anybody's trust?"

Well I am not Pro-Union and $33.45 an hour on average sounds like a decent wage. Only 40% of employees support the unionization, that does not sound like a majority in my book. The union was also voted down before.

The issue of Japan and its currency is driven by the Big 3. I have heard a million excuses why they are losing money and so called currency manipulation is not the reason.




(Message edited by hugh9269 on May 14, 2008)
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 592
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 3:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hugh9269 you're right....this is worthless talk. I and many other Americans have an opinion, you and many others have yours. We have to agree to disagree.

(Message edited by Buyamerican on May 14, 2008)
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 205
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 4:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The issue of Japan and its currency is driven by the Big 3. I have heard a million excuses why they are losing money and so called currency manipulation is not the reason."

It is not "so called".

As the rate chart shows, it is happening and it is an indirect subsidy being paid by Americans to Japan. How so? By the nature of the trade surplus and "our" debt to Japan, we are borrowing at one rate and they are paying back at another. We all get to pay for their manipulation whether we want to or not. Do you really think that's fair? If they are so committed to the American market, play at the same rates American's play. But that would take away a several thousand dollar subsidy that all of us sure enjoy paying.

Those that support trade say all things should be able to equal out. I agree. When somebody stacks the deck against you, are they to be rewarded?

BTW, 40% of the membership wanting to take a vote on a union in Canada is the trigger for a vote. Not the vote. It sure is strange that when the workers reached 40% wanting the vote, Toyota management suddenly came up with 500 new workers (some of which no longer worked there and others who have absolutely no relationship to production) Also Georgetown workers have reported that when injured on the job they are fired as soon as possible. If that is the style of management you condone, fine.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2503
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 5:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oops Gistok. I meant to say modern; not post-modern.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2504
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 6:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ironically, somehow it is difficult to keep the subject of this thread focused on the Ren Cen. Guess the subject [of the building) changes when GM buys the building.
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Hugh9269
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Username: Hugh9269

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 4:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angry dad, BA put it the best way..

"you're right....this is worthless talk. I and many other Americans have an opinion, you and many others have yours. We have to agree to disagree. "
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Hugh9269
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Username: Hugh9269

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 10:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dont agree why this a issue with the Detroit Autoamkers. The price of a fully loaded Saturn Aura is $$28,500.00. A Honda Accord is $27,042.

What is you issue with car pricing and currency?

You are not going to say me on currency...

Lets get back to the Ren Cen issue...
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Jiminnm
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Username: Jiminnm

Post Number: 1654
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 10:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually Hugh, BA and angrydad have not answered any of the questions asked of them. What is an American car? Is a "big 3" car that is mostly manufactured outside the US an American car? Who gets the most benefit from a "foreign" car (whatever that is) built in the US? What about value for the price? Instead, all we get is the hypnotic mantra, buy from the Big 3 and there's serious problems if we don't. That doesn't answer anything.
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 514
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 9:23 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

[off-topic part of post]

Jiminnm,

An analogy to BA and Angrydad's approach to persuasion is the use a 2x4 to assert the sky is blue. It's blunt and unsophisticated but the underlying statement isn't false simply because they can't articulate it in a manner sufficient for you.

An American car, arguably, could be any car sold by a domestically headquartered company, a car whose parts consist of X% of American made parts, or a whole host of assorted criteria.

I have read some of the studies (and I apologize but I have not saved these files or noted their location on public websites) on what vehicles support the most "American" jobs and by and large, the Detroit 3 vehicles support the highest number of American jobs. That is particularly true here in Michigan.

I'm not saying don't buy a Honda or a Toyota or that you should buy a Ford just because of the brand attached to it but I think we do need to start paying attention as consumers to the impact our decisions do have on our own economic interests. The "hypnotic mantra" you refer to could arguably be reversed to include the hypnotic mantra that the Detroit 3 don't produce quality products that is present in much of the mainstream media.

The currency manipulation argument is convoluted because it also requires an analysis of capital flow restrictions, bank reserves, interest rates, etc. It's not an isolated analysis. Overall though, there has been some minor manipulation by Japan but the primary offender would be China. If you disagree there there is an affect of currency value to profits, examine Toyota's recent slump in profits. Sales were down yes, but not enough to correlate to such a large drop in profits. However, the devaluation of the dollar in comparison to the yen, accounts for a large portion of those loss in profits.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that although BA and Angrydad may be using a 2x4, their points have some merit but it's not as simple as they are conveying. It's complicated but there is an underlying truth to it.

[end off-topic]

As for the RenCen, I personally like the building. It's got unique character both in its appearance and in its internal layout. It's also encouraging that GM is at least buying its headquarters building yes?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11777
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 11:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wish BA would at least explain his rationale for his question of "What's your excuse"
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 596
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 1:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You explain what "Instead of blaming others and complaining about your situation you should take responsibility for yourself" means.

The effects of not purchasing American Big 3 automobiles is obvious. I do what I can to purchase American so profits stay here. What do you do?

(Message edited by Buyamerican on May 17, 2008)
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 11778
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 3:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The effects of not purchasing American Big 3 automobiles is obvious. I do what I can to purchase American so profits stay here. What do you do?



Just one more problem of the WDYDA crowd that is all to quick to make assumptions. Just because I think that unions are worthless bullies and the domestics have done a lot to hurt themsleves you go off making your assumptions and assigning blame.

As I have said before I have never bought an auto that wasn't a Big 3 product. Now I'm curious do you check for American made labels and research other products or go for the cheapest like so many of your rah-rah Big 3 counterparts.

The WDYDA crowd is full of hypocrisy and assigning blame. You have proven that you are good at the assigning blame part. What other made in America products do you buy? Do you even look at labels beyond cars>

As for

quote:

"You explain what "Instead of blaming others and complaining about your situation you should take responsibility for yourself" means.



you missed the point entirely. Whenever anyone points out an issue that has contributed to the state of the city you pull out your bs 'Take responsibility and quit whining" crap. You can't apply it to one situation then whine that others are to blame for the downfall of the domestic autos and the unions that you whine about so often. Hypocrisy at that level is worth pointing out.

So again "What do I need an excuse for?" or are you just projecting silly assumptions on people that call out the unions for what they are?
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Hpgrmln
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Username: Hpgrmln

Post Number: 464
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 4:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Just because I think that unions are worthless bullies "

Maybe you think that way because they act that way.
Harrassing people and using fear tactics doesnt sell a car.I have talked to many car owners. Owners of domestic cars have been dissapointed in the service they received from the dealer, and the company when they've written to them about a problem.
I heard a much different account from Honda owners regarding dealer treatment.
Its low to try to move a product by selling solely on an argument about guilt and job loss. You need to respect your customer on all levels.When the dealer gives you problems, then you write to the company and don't get respect from them, then of course the consumer will think the people within the company are bullies. Oh, BTW, Im being fair. Its not just the big 3 that disrespect buyers. Volkswagen has gotten bad about this too over the last few years.
Sometimes people buy a car they don't care for too much just because they feel the dealer network is more respectful. And many wont differentiate between the company execs and the guys hired strictly by the dealer to push products and meet sales quotas.
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Hugh9269
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Username: Hugh9269

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 8:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jiminnm,

I am of the mantra "Buy what you want". With ALL cars having globally sourced parts the definition of a American automobile is very vague in my book.

Is this a American SUV? A Chevy Equinox or a Pontiac Torrent SUV assembled in Canada in partnership with Suzuki with a Chinese built engine and a Japanese built & supplied transmission?

Clearly the Big 3 have moved past this "Buy American Thing". They buy, build and sell all over the world!

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