 
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 145
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 11:10 pm: |    |
I was being facetious.
de·moc·ra·cy 2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
U.S. Constitution, Article IV, Section. 4.: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government" (Pertains to States' rights)
Mike, do you really think that people shouldn't have a say in how their hard earned tax dollars are spent? And do you really think that every Canadian city is superior to every U.S. city in terms of "service", transit, and "world class institutions like the zoo"? |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 872
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 11:21 pm: | |
People have a say when they vote in the government leaders during an election.
People vote those people in to make decisions.
People should not be voting on every little budget decision, because people not that well versed in these issues are voting based on saving a dollar on their taxes, etc.
So you have your say when voting leaders in. No need to vote on seperate issues all the time, and degrade your public services and institutions because people are to cheap to pay an extra $10 bucks on their taxes.
And if there is an issue with funding that people want to speak out across, then they can write to their elected officials.
Why vote in elected officials then?
Why not just have votes every week and let the public just decide everything through voting?
It can get a little much at times.
All the places with the highest quality of life, do not do it by cutting all their services, institutions, and having dirt cheap taxes.
You get what you pay for.
The ZOO should probably be run by the state and funded by the state, so that all state residents fund it, since it is the major zoo for the state, and serves the entire state in a way.
This is really where a METRO GOV for Metro Detroit would come in handy, as a METRO GOV could operate the zoo and charge a region wide tax to fund the zoo.
(Message edited by miketoronto on May 26, 2008) |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 147
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 11:31 pm: | |
"Why vote in elected officials then?
Why not just have votes every week and let the public just decide everything through voting?"
I would prefer this! Unlike you, apparently, I don't think elected officials are better determiners of how my taxes should be spent. And I don't think most voters are too stupid to make these decisions. If they're too stupid to vote on the issues, then why should we let them vote for their elected officials? |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 1318
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 6:23 am: | |
MikeInToronto, I understand your line of thinking, but our two systems of rule are just different. For example, if you guys don't like how IssueX is being handled, you have a No-Confidence vote and the Jerks are Jerked out of their chairs.
Here removing an elected official is like pulling teeth. In the case of the President it is sooo hard that for it to happen the entire legislative branch almost has to shut down. It is a serious undertaking.
You guys are different. Change is easier, and since you guys can remove the Jerks with ease, your politicans keep their collective jerk-factor in check. When we elect someone, it is almost a life-time appointment, as Huey Long (Governor of Louisiana) said when asked how he ever could be voted out, "Only if they catch a live boy, or a dead girl, in my bed."
Of course, Huey didn't count on the bullet that put him out of our misery.
Even on the local level, removing someone from office is a pain. Expensive, time-consuming and fraught with danger. That is why it doesn't happen very often.
About 15 years back, the citizens of Michigan voted a provision that made it a requirement that any tax increase had to be voted on by the citizens. This was in reaction to a guy named Jim Blanchard raising taxes with some of his other democrats in the House and Senate.
You see, here in America we have the silly idea that all taxes belong to us. And if you are going to raise my taxes, it is polite to ask permission first. Now, I know, you guys in Canada don't mind that whole GST thing and you think that a high tax rate keep services first rate.
See, we look at highest tax rates in Michigan and they match up with places that deliver some of the worse services. Now, before folks point out that Birmingham and the GPointes have high taxes, true. But their rates are smaller in comparison to other locales. |
Cinderpath
Member
Username: Cinderpath
Post Number: 543
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 9:01 am: | |
MCP001 writes: "Zoos are not really "educational".
Placing animals in faux-environments for the enjoyment of others, is not educational.
Turn on Animal Planet, Discovery, any number of cable channels will have more information, show animals in their true environment, and won't cost your those living in neighboring cities a dime."
-Yeah that's it, don't go see real live animals, turn on the TV and get fatter. Awesome quality time with your kids. As well, commercial TV programs are always educational and accurate.
This comment ranks in the annals of stupidity- I will be voting yes. I'd rather have tax money support something here I can enjoy with my family, than say re-building Iraq. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 3433
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:28 am: | |
Ah, another person who feels that they can spend other people's money better than they can. |
Cinderpath
Member
Username: Cinderpath
Post Number: 544
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 12:27 pm: | |
-No the response was about the idiotic idea of turning on a TV to educate as it is cheaper, instead of actually seeing real animals. Kind of like video games verses actually doing something? Talk about rotten values. Do you parent this way? "Hey kids, we're not going on vacation this year at the lake, but you can just watch the Travel Channel, or play X-Box virtual swimming. When your done with that there is a video about firearm safety, you need to watch."...........What's next, shutting down schools so kids can stay home and watch TV, so you can save on property taxes? I hope your surgeon didn't learn to operate by watching TV only, although, you might save a few bucks on your health insurance.
If you hate high taxes, go move somewhere else, like in the middle of the plains (North Dakota is calling you) where there are zero cultural amenities, and you can happily spend less on taxes, and you'll live happily ever after. But whining because voters are going to chose to increase tax for something they see value in, regardless if you personally use it or not, is irrelevant. I can't fly a F-22, but I pay for it don't I? I guess you might as well go to the zoo, and make faces at the monkeys all day, so you'll get your money's worth. I am sure they'll be amused. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 3434
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 1:00 pm: | |
Big diff between going to the lake and X-Box: you aren't trapping something and shoving it into a make-believe setting, then attempting to justify your actions by calling it educational.
Online courses??? <sarcasm>Now there's an idea that has potential in the near future.</sarcasm>.
And since you find that the cost of the zoo tax so low, why not open up your wallet and demonstrate some of your generosity? It's much more effective to show how much you care over having government steal from a total stranger. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7375
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 1:05 pm: | |
VOTE YES on the Detroit Zoo Millage. I would help to keep the Detroit Zoo Open with more state tax dollars and we all pay pennies for the tax. Voting no will cut grants to the Detroit Zoo possibly closing the park for good. We need our Zoo for the enjoyment of the animals and to save them for the endanger habitats cause by man. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 1126
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 4:11 pm: | |
Mcp, is there a cultural amenity or institution that exists that you would support with your precious tax dollars that are being stolen from you? Now, if you have to get into your car and travel on all of those taxpayer funded roads to go cash your Social Security check and then visit your Medicare paid-for doctor before you answer that question, everyone will understand.
One other thing, I'm doing some research on Michigan's natural resources including its beautiful freshwater lakes. Do you happen to know if the state has any taxpayer funded regulatory agencies that protect water quality and promote conservation of our natural resources? Or would something like that be funded only by the users? |
Evelyn
Member
Username: Evelyn
Post Number: 259
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 4:22 pm: | |
^^^ (giggling)
Of all the things in Detroit and the world to get outraged about, the government allegedly “stealing” my tax dollars to maintain the butterfly house doesn’t even make the list. Those thieving butterflies! |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 3439
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 4:34 pm: | |
Institutions should be supported through admission fees, membership programs and voluntary donations.
I realize that this is a difficult concept, but try to follow along.
Last time I checked, my driving was paid for by gas taxes, and license & registration fees.
It's sad that the supporters of the zoo cannot claim that their favorite institution is self-supporting. That's telling right there about how "popular" it really is. |
Rob_in_warren
Member
Username: Rob_in_warren
Post Number: 102
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 4:47 pm: | |
We have a zoo without elephants. A big region like ours and we can't afford elephants. Too bad kids today can't experience the awesome size of an elephant. Vote yes.
I will say that the stupid, environment-saving themed motion simulator is a complete waste of a building and money. I payed an extra $5 per to get into the thing and the story sucked, it wasn't educational, and it didn't even make me queazy. I'd rather pay $5 and see a big ol' elephant. ;-) |
Spartacus
Member
Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 306
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 5:06 pm: | |
MCP, how many zoos do you think are "self-supporting?"
Rob- Money wasn't the reason we got rid of the elephants. Many people feel that it isn't humane to house elephants in northern climates, they are forced to stand on concrete in the winter and this isn't good for their feet. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 3440
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 5:07 pm: | |
Spartacus, I'll jump to the chase: Why do you think that is? |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2171
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 5:12 pm: | |
Swingline, meet DEQ:
http://www.michigan.gov/deq/ |
Spartacus
Member
Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 307
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 5:44 pm: | |
MCP you claimed that the Detroit Zoo isn't "popular". Your evidence for this was that it is not self supported. This is disingenuous because there are very few zoos that do not receive significant taxpayer funding.
That was my point. I wasn't trying to make a point about whether cultural institutions should be funded in general. But the fact of the matter is that if you want to maintain world class cultural institutions taxpayer support is critical. Other regions have done a much better job of this than we have. |
Evelyn
Member
Username: Evelyn
Post Number: 260
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 6:11 pm: | |
I’m not sure I follow your logic, Mcp001. Are you advocating that all taxes be entirely voluntary, and only institutions that are self-supporting should stay open? What about art museums? Libraries? State parks? Public schools? Highways?
I’d argue that cultural institutions- like art museums, libraries, and zoos- support and maintain society.
I also really like the butterfly house, and I don’t mind paying taxes so that it stays open. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 873
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 6:31 pm: | |
I am sorry, but some of you act like these institutions like zoo's eat up a ton of your tax dollars.
That could not be farther from the truth. If the portion of your tax dollars that supports institutions was even as high as $50.00 of your tax bill I would be surprised.
They are not asking for thousands of your dollars.
Funny how people never question the police budgets eventhough they are the largest item that our taxes go to. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 536
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:52 pm: | |
"Last time I checked, my driving was paid for by gas taxes, and license & registration fees."
If that was the case, why are so many of our roads potholed? |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2179
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:09 pm: | |
And think how many of your tax dollars are being used to feed, clothe and house convicted criminals!
Michigan's per-capita incarceration rate is the country's 11th-highest, ranks higher than seven other Great Lakes states and is fourth-highest among the 11 most populous states.
...Michigan spends more on prisons than public universities. Michigan's annual prison budget is $1.9 billion (about 1/5 of the general fund) but would be closer to $1.4 billion if the state's incarceration rate wasn't 40% higher than that of its Great Lakes neighbors.
www.absolutemichigan.com |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 1128
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:52 pm: | |
quote:Swingline, meet DEQ:
http://www.michigan.gov/deq/ Gaz, thanks, but that post was an attempt at sarcasm in response to the narcissistic libertarianism of Mcp's anti-tax worldview. Because he spends his leisure time at his cottage on the lake which he paid for himself with his hard earned savings, the rest of the world does not deserve taxpayer supported recreational or leisure opportunities. Ok? |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 3443
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 11:05 am: | |
Miketoronto, a story about a camel and a tent come to mind when I hear people talk about "Well, it's just a little money." |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7380
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 11:21 am: | |
Cinderpath,
Great quote! Paying taxes with representation in our communities would save our public services. It's not going to the King or Queen of England or your president, dictator, emperor or premier. We have to pay taxes to keep America running. If all fo you might be fed up with taxes, but as Americans paying taxes changes our productive future. |
Wally
Member
Username: Wally
Post Number: 408
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 11:56 am: | |
I'll vote NO on any tax increase, including the zoo. Supposedly miniscule tax increases have a way of growing from virtually nothing, to a large part of our incomes. Look at your next paycheck and take a look at how much you pay every week.
A definitive NO vote from here. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 875
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 11:44 pm: | |
Wally,
Don't pay taxes, you don't get the services.
Really, taxes are not as big an issue like some of you make it out to be. |
Pam
Member
Username: Pam
Post Number: 4103
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 7:16 am: | |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20080528/NEW S03/805280378/1005
quote:The Detroit Zoo is being honored as one of America's Best Zoos 2008 by the Intrepid Traveler, a travel publisher in Branford, Conn.
The zoo, the first in the United States to emphasize barless exhibits, rather than cages, was recognized for its diverse collection of animals and special programs, according to the travel guide.
Allen W. Nyhuis and Jon Wassner, coauthors of "America's Best Zoos: A Travel Guide for Fans and Families," helped select the zoo -- along with 59 others -- for the honor. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 3449
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:59 am: | |
Yes, Evelyn, I am.
If these institutions are as popular as people have been claiming the past few days, then they should have absolutely no problem raising money via memberships, admissions fees and donations.
And to Spartacus,
quote:This is disingenuous because there are very few zoos that do not receive significant taxpayer funding.
No, it's not disingenuous. This just proves my point. |
Spartacus
Member
Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 310
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:54 pm: | |
Okay, so what you're saying is that the Detroit zoo isn't unpopular as compared to other zoos, but that zoos generally are unpopular. Is that correct?
In your response to Evelyn, you affirm that you are against public financing of schools.
If you don't think that tax dollars should fund schools, I think you might be kind of nuts. I could see where you would support vouchers (I do), but those would still be funded with tax dollars. Do you think that school should be voluntary for kids? Do you think that poor kids shouldn't go to school? |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1816
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 1:42 pm: | |
Technically you could make school voluntary with a loophole, home-schooling. There are no regulations to check and make sure people that are home-schooling are teaching anything close to state guidelines or anything for that manner. Now with that said, most people who home-school do in fact educate their children, but by law the state can't check to make sure you actually are. You would not be setting up your kids for success by denying them an education, but you could do it. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 3458
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 4:24 pm: | |
I don't recall making a comparison between one zoo and another, so you've lost me there.
As for the funding of schools, I'm not in favor of vouchers, universal tax credits, or whatever the cause du jour of the week is. I feel that those who use them, should be the ones paying for them (read: charge the parents tuition), period.
If parents cannot do that, then why are they having kids that they cannot afford in the first place?
If that's not the height of irresponsibility, I don't know what is.
As to Bob's point above, I know plenty of families who home-school their children.
To put it bluntly, they put the public school students to shame with their overall behaviour and academic skill. |
Spartacus
Member
Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 311
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 5:26 pm: | |
With views that are that extreme, I can't imagine that you'd be happy anywhere other than a compound in Idaho. |
Mcp001
Member
Username: Mcp001
Post Number: 3465
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 5:42 pm: | |
Nope, I'm happy right here in Michigan. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7381
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:08 am: | |
Wally,
Everyone has to pay TAXES! No matter what you have. No one can't keep their prize possession in the Earth too long. |
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