  Detroitman Member Username: Detroitman Post Number: 1089 Registered: 06-2004 |
State House passes transit legislation By Bill Shea http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a rticle/20081114/FREE/811149966 | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 610 Registered: 10-2006 |
IT seemed as if nothing was getting through in the House/Senate before.... Now this an COBO bills have been passed! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6408 Registered: 10-2003 |
Don't get too excited. This is going to Bishop's house, now... Speaking of the legislature, after this years' election, what is the make up of the Michigan House and Senate, now? Did the Dems gain any seats in the Senate? | ||
Jgpikapp Member Username: Jgpikapp Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2008 |
The Dems gained several seats in the House. There weren't any Senate races this year, and 2010 will be interesting because a huge number of Senate seats will be either open because of term limits or just being contested. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1417 Registered: 04-2005 |
state house passes transit legislation - a.k.a. help! mcnamara cronies and their construction firms need government dollars! btw, how much money was spent on that ridiculous blue ornament on i94 that spans telegraph road? i bet that thing lined a few pockets too. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6409 Registered: 10-2003 |
The decorative structure for the tied-arch bridge was added by the Detroit Regional Gateways Advisory Council, a private/public partnership. The Detroit Regional Gateways Advisory Council division of the Metro CV&B to enhance I-94 between the airport and downtown. They done other enhancements such as planting trees and flowers and decorative lighting among other things. The whole bridge was being replaced, anyway. How much the enhancement to what would have otherwise been a regular bridge, I do not know, but the whole thing cost $57 million. C.A. Hull of Walled Lake was the contractor, and Alfred Benesch & Company of Chicago were the engineers. See if you can find McNamara cronies among these two and get back to us, OK? | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1419 Registered: 04-2005 |
lmich, if the paper trails were that easy, michigan would still be a prosperous and vibrant state - but i'll take you up on the challenge nonetheless. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6411 Registered: 10-2003 |
You should, especially when you make unsubstantiated claims. The burden of proof is one you. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1423 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: lmich, what claim am i making that is unsubstantiated? please be clear, concise, and accurate - and i will do the same. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6412 Registered: 10-2003 |
How about unsubstantiated implication? Either way, I've made my point; you've yet to make yours besides your perpetual unconstructive and miserable comments. You so obviously get off on trying to make people as miserable as you are. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1424 Registered: 04-2005 |
lmich, really. i'm up for polite conversation, expressing opinions, and having some open dialog - but your characterizations of me are unfair, inaccurate, and hostile. i don't know what i said exactly that so aggrieved you, but your response begs an apology. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 641 Registered: 04-2004 |
The arches cost $1 million each, and were privately financed. | ||
Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2007 |
Speaking of transit, it seems that the station on the future Detroit-Ann Arbor line that will serve the airport will be located at Henry Ruff and Michigan Avenue in Westland. I believe they want to work out of the building that is currently the Wayne County Library for the Blind. As for meetings coming up, there will be a meeting in Dearborn about their new station in West Dearborn and other news about the project. There is also a SEMCOG meeting in Sterling Heights on the 20th I believe. I have class at EMU during the time it's supposed to go on so I won't be able to attend that one. If anyone is planning to go, could you do me a favour and report back if there's any interesting news? I'd appreciate it. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6414 Registered: 10-2003 |
Carl, don't hold you breath on that apology. You've been nothing but unconstructive and needlessly negative and nasty since you found this place. Perhaps, you'll find someone else willing to suffer a fool and a misery troll, but I'm not the one. You took a comment about positive transit legislation for the region and decided that you were going to get in one of your oh-so-predictable silly political shots. Well, you got called on it. I'll apologize when you apologize to the forum for what you've done one too many discussions around here. Back on the subject, has Bishop ever taken a stance on this legislation? BTW, the passing of the TIFA districts for transit will be another important tool to building better mass transit systems in the state. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1426 Registered: 04-2005 |
lmich, this is a forum. people will have opinions different from yours. your slanderous (libelous, really) attacks do not help you state your case. i have reasonable concerns about how government money is being used - which somehow, quickly revealed your blinding hostility and penchant for baseless vitriol. if you had taken a moment to read my posts expressing regret over carl's chop house closing; my excitement over stores such as markowycz's, kopytko's, butcher & packers, and others; my exploration of detroit's meat processing industry; my favorable commentary on pastor and former city councilman david eberhard, and his dedication to the people of detroit; my addition of history and media to the "em ford" ship thread, etc. - you'd see how dishonest and appalling your comments are: quote: and despite your character assassination and negativity, lmich - i am still willing to address you in a respectful manner. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1869 Registered: 11-2003 |
Mike Bishop will keep this from getting through. The MI Senate thinks of themselves as a check on everything and they will keep this from happening. It would cost money and therefore it is bad in his eyes, just like he will keep a Cobo expansion from happening. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2210 Registered: 03-2008 |
Senator Bishop's contact information can be found here: http://www.senate.michigan.gov /gop/senators/contact.asp?Dist rict=12 Let him know what you think, and say why (or why not) you believe both the transit and Cobo bill should be passed. | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 318 Registered: 12-2004 |
The point, Thecarl, is that you implied that the construction of the ornamental arches over Telegraph was "pork barrel" spending and at least partially the result of cronyism. The reality is that the bridge needed to be replaced (like dozens of other bridges in the metro area). Whether or not the actual contract for reconstruction of the actual bridge was the result of cronyism is irrelevant. The fact that the ornamentation was privately funded and did not cost the taxpayers a cent is. What exactly is your issue with the private donation of money for the beautification of our area? And how does that specifically affect you? Also his words aren't slander. If anything they'd be libel, but in reality they aren't necessarily libel either. He refered to your comments as miserable and not you. I would hardly call that baseless. I'm sure many people would view your comment as being miserable and therefore his statement wouldn't necessarily be defamation. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1427 Registered: 04-2005 |
hudkina, i was specifically referring to lmich's comment about me, which i will quote for you again: quote: hudkina, please don't rephrase or selectively quote the content to fit your liking. as far as the bridge comments, let's say i was completely wrong and off-base; but does that warrant lmich's barrage of pent-up, bombastic anger? i think not. he was blinded by rage and created a persona, not reflective of myself, to whom he felt justified in spewing a host of nasty remarks. quote: hudkina, this is hyperbole, it's false, it's untrue, it's libel. don't try to redefine it. accept it for what it is, and deal with it. i'm sorry the whole thing happened, it's not in my nature to try to upset people or perpetuate an argument. i'd rather see this whole thing righted and move on with positive dialog; maybe that's your intent as well - but you're getting us farther from the goal by scolding me, while overlooking what lmich said in clear and unmistakable terms. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3923 Registered: 09-2007 |
Keep Calm & Carry On | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1428 Registered: 04-2005 |
from http://constructor.constructio n.com/features/build/archives/ 2006-05grandEntrance.asp quote: what? say it ain't so! | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1429 Registered: 04-2005 |
oh wait, there's a rebuttal! from http://www.constructionequipme ntguide.com/story.asp?story=65 95: quote: | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1430 Registered: 04-2005 |
and then we have this explanation which is meant to assure the public, from http://www.slagcement.org/shar ed/content/story.jsp?_event=vi ew&_id=445502_U128801__207535 quote: | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1431 Registered: 04-2005 |
and despite the reassurances of using slag concrete, we have this reality (freep.com, april 2, 2007): quote: but it's okay to land jumbo jets on? granholm? mulhern? mdot? lansing? greed? problem? systemic? institutional? or could this be yet another problem we don't have to worry about for 30 years, while "government and private industry work together?" | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5233 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thecarl, are you an expert on concrete mix design? You're correlating two entirely different applications. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1432 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: there are lots of problems with your statement, hudkina: firstly, you admit that lots of other bridges in this area need replacing. exactly right. so why did this bridge get such special attention? are you so naive to believe that the dainty ornamentation on this structure will have a net $2M positive effect on detroit and/or regional tourism? while other bridges, as you yourself state, so greatly need repair? could it be possible that some of our "gracious" private citizens who so generously contributed to the football bridge might have skeletons lurking by having conveniently disposed of industrial waste in our states roads and highways? and then, hudkina, you state, "Whether or not the actual contract for reconstruction of the actual bridge was the result of cronyism is irrelevant." no, hudkina, you are wrong. your non sequiturs and elliptical arguments fail. you have rebutted nothing. lastly, hudkina, you make this statement: quote: ah, i see. out of the goodness of their hearts, private entities wished to put up the football bridge. did private organizations take umbrage to a "conventional" structure being built over i94, and wish to lavish it with ornamentation that they felt would inherently boost their bottom line? or were they approached by granholm, mulhern, mdot, and drgac to pony up? | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1433 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: firstly, danindc, please define what you think to be an "expert on concrete mix design." and similarly, please provide your own credentials. secondly, which "two entirely different applications" are you referring to? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5235 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: An "expert" would be knowledgeable of various admixtures, how they affect the performance of the concrete, and the suitability of admixtures depending on the application. In this case, you've compared an elevated framed bridge structure to a slab-on-grade, both of which have completely different requirements (per analysis and by ACI 318). For the record, I'm a licensed Professional Engineer. Would you like to clarify your statements, as I requested? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6417 Registered: 10-2003 |
And, he just keeps on going. Poor thing; bless his heart. He can't help himself. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1434 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: sure, lmich. you can post a vague remark, but you run from the challenge of having to explain your dishonesty. your cowardice in the face on confrontation truly describes you. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1435 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: danindc, my family has three generations in concrete, excavating, and aggregate. but, it is my reading comprehension that seems to separate me from many of the hydrophobic posters on this thread. you state: quote: but, what you missed from the citation, in your zeal to be an expert, is this: quote: i'm sure, danindc, you will have just cause to dispute what msu knows about construction, with your licensed professional engineer status, and all. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5238 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^In no way did I represent myself as an expert on concrete mix design. I asked valid questions, which you have chosen to left unanswered. You decided to get snappy and create a personal pissing match, thecarl. I'd still like to know what you meant by this: quote: | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1436 Registered: 04-2005 |
dan, when you started out asking if i was "an expert on concrete mix design," i interpreted your interrogative as suggesting that without credentials, my viewpoint meant little or nothing. perhaps that was not your intent. okay? let's forget about being experts, either one of us. for the sake of discussion, let's use the analysis by msu, since they're an internationally renowned college, and have supported our state through science and application for over a century. you continue to state that i have left your "valid questions unanswered." what are those valid questions, dan? your initial post, #5233, only asks one question: am i an expert on concrete mix design. again, i'll just say that i'm not. you then state that i'm "correlating two entirely different applications." over the course of the thread, much has been discussed, and i'm unsure which two applications you're referring to - so i addressed a post directly to you, and asked you to specify these applications - in hopes to understand you. but, the request for clarification is overlooked, and you reiterate: "Would you like to clarify your statements, as I requested?" dan - i'm not sure what you're asking, really! nonetheless, i *think* i know what you're asking, so i quote (in post #1435) from msu's study, highlighted, and i'll quote it again, and highlight it again: quote:if those aren't the two different applications you're referring to, then what are you referring to? please quote the questions i've left unanswered to show me what i've overlooked. i tried to guess what you were asking, but obviously you're seeking something else. however, you did close with an inquiry that is obvious: quote: that's easy. i'll start by citing a reference: quote: so, if given our climate, slag concrete is bad for roads - wouldn't it be logical to assume it's just as bad - or perhaps even worse - for runways? a surface more prone to cracking, heaving, and spalling, than other concrete mixtures, seems like a poor application to me. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2006 Registered: 04-2006 |
Lmich at al, the blue tied bridge thing cost added a few million to the price of the project. Remember, they were going to rebuild that interchange anyway, and to rebuild the interchange they needed to move the EB and WB roadways together. Prior to that the previous design was a mess of left lane entrances with left lane exits. This resulted in an incredible number of accidents. By replacing this design with a SPUI, they were also able to move the freeway farther from the housing in the area, making the area more attractive and freeing up some land for development. The City of Taylor participated in the cost of the bridge because they saw it as a benefit to its citizens and a way to increase and stabilize their tax base. Another source for the money was the Enhancement program. The enhancement program is part of federal law which states that 10 percent of the Surface Transportation Program be used on projects that help to beautify the area around roads. This can also be used for improving pedestrian linkages. This funding was tapped for projects such as Campus Martius and Streetscapes along Woodward, Gratiot, and Washington Boulevard. Here is an old press release from MDOT: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/County_Descriptions_119363_7.pdf (Message edited by Detroitplanner on November 17, 2008) | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1437 Registered: 04-2005 |
detroitplanner, thanks for your clear and educational post. i did have a couple of things come to mind while pondering this bridge. firstly, the "cost" of the ornamentation added a couple, or few million to the bridge, initially. but of course, something like that requires regular inspection and maintenance - so the cost does become perpetual. now, i think about the other bridges in the area that are dropping chunks of concrete on passing motorists. i find it a bit eerie to be cruising under a bridge and see how badly the concrete has eroded and separated in many places. it was difficult for me to rationalize adding what was added - the blue stuff - to the telegraph / i94 interchange, when that money could have been used to fix 4, 5, or 6 bridges that badly needed repair, and post a real danger to people commuting in this area. however, if i understand you correctly - funds were spent, in whole or in part, in accordance with stipulations of the enhancement program you cited. so perhaps there was a net benefit that exceeded the cost of the decoration - but again, that decoration is a perpetual cost. thanks for your input! | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2008 Registered: 04-2006 |
There are some serious issues in how transportation is funding right now. People are driving less and the cost of raw materials is more. A fixed tax of about 38 cents per gallon goes to pay for road improvements and transit. Since this is fixed, it did not go up when gas was $4.25 a gallon. This is impacting both federal and state revenues. This has left us in quite the prediciment, transit agencies are strapped because the demand for transit has never been so high, but the revenues have gone down. The price of steel and other raw materials is advancing at a rate faster than inflation, but those revenues are declining as well. It has put both transit and road agencies into a bad spot where they are fighting for scraps. Road agencies will not have the money to salt roads much this year, and over the summer I am sure everyone noticed how long the grass was getting by roadsides. A lot of things have been done to improve the prioritization of roads and bridges in the last several years to ensure the worst ones get fixed first. Revenues as I previously explained however are just not there to get to everything, yet the feds force us to spend x amount on certain project types. This may be seen as a waste to many, but if you think about the quality of life issues from reducing traffic accidents, improving pedestrian connectivity, or the economic climate it makes some sense. Think about the cost of an accident, if someone is injured or killed it could cost a family literally millions in lost productivity or doctor bills for a serious injury or fatality. Just think about what happens to everyones car insurance if we can demonstrate a big reduction in crashes. The improving of pedestrian connections will allow folks safer places to walk and promote physical activity, something people need around here to ensure their health and to keep medical bills low. Look at what opening up the area to new development or improving home values/air quality/noise quality does to homeowners in that area. Even the blue bridge which I will concede is odd, does give people arriving from Metro an intangible good feeling about Detroit. Think about it if you were coming here for the first time on business or to attend an event, its something that you will take back with you, like the Big Tire or Campus Martius. Wen you think of Chicago, you don't think of the miles of projects and slums, you think about the parks, the picasso at Daley Center, or even the odd bridges built for a convention a few years back with the red, white, and blue stars. No one ever calls those a waste. Every public investment is a trade-off. I would love to be able to have more dollars to fix bridges and pavement with, but the simple fact of the matter is there is not enough to keep up with demand, making it difficult to progress as roads get worse faster without the proper investment. | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 25 Registered: 09-2008 |
quote: Unless you are a civil engineer or a materials engineer, your assumptions and reasonings don't have much weight. Also, you cannot compare concrete made in the 1970s to concrete made today. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1438 Registered: 04-2005 |
glowblue, the comments are predicated on expert opinions quoted above, from terry collins, a concrete construction engineer with the portland cement association; richard m. smith, manager of the mdot's bridge inspection program - and studies by michigan state university. quote: see, glowblue - it has been discontinued because of the problems it caused. while construction materials have, in some instances, improved over time, there is nothing to believe that any such improvements apply to slag concrete. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 806 Registered: 04-2006 |
Today, I used mass transit. My job paid for it. Michigan needs more jobs. Not more taxes. If we ever get real mass transit leadership in Washington DC or Lansing or Livonia city hall then this will happen. Unfortunately, in Michigan and in Livonia and Detroit this is not the case. Instead we get higher taxes and more public bus service reductions. There is hope though like today when I used mass transit and I'm sure if we all work together that we can prevail. So, remember that I really Truly care about the handicapped, elderly and the low income people of southeast Michigan. All I need is for 3 Million people to give me just one dollar and you will all see that I do indeed care. Just like, SEMCOG, MDOT, SMART, DDOT and the TRU. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 874 Registered: 07-2007 |
Spotted at MIRS: "Cutting the state budget, building a bigger Cobo Hall and laying a light rail system down Woodward Avenue in Detroit are Senate Majority Leader Mike BISHOP's (R-Rochester) top three priorities for lame duck, the leader told reporters today." | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 881 Registered: 07-2007 |
MIRS again reporting transit will be a priority: "Light rail has leapfrogged to the front of the lame duck line, with both House Speaker Andy DILLON (D-Redford Twp.) and Senate Majority Leader Mike BISHOP (R-Rochester) hopping on board." | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 408 Registered: 02-2008 |
This is most excellent news, something that can be achieved with bi-partisanship! | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5494 Registered: 02-2005 |
I'm truly surprised to be reading the excerpts Novine posted. Desperate times force things that need to be done to get done. Michigan should be in purge mode right now. Things aren't working too well, so a total re-examination of everything we've been doing, and an embrace of what we haven't been doing, is called for. Thus, a Rochester Republican will actually make light rail in Detroit a priority. Good. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6455 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, the economy's going to be bad in Michigan for at least another year or two, and in cases like these, this is when you reinvest in infrastructure. We'll be thankful again when we get back to better times. I too almost did a double-take when I heard that not only was Bishop going to support this, but be one of the backers. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 898 Registered: 07-2007 |
I don't recall seeing this posted anywhere but Dulles is in the sticks as compared to Metro: "Federal regulators have approved a long-awaited extension of Metrorail to Tysons Corner and Dulles International Airport, virtually assuring construction of a $5.2 billion project that regional leaders say is crucial to ease congestion and spur economic growth in Northern Virginia. By signing off on the project, the Federal Transit Administration reversed its position of almost a year ago, when its regulators declared Dulles rail unqualified to receive $900 million in federal funding, citing cost overruns, delays and concerns about management. The project now heads to U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary Peters and the Office of Management and Budget for final approval. But the transit agency's action is widely viewed as a critical achievement that essentially guarantees the federal funding. Without it, the project would have died, state and regional officials said." | ||
Detroitman Member Username: Detroitman Post Number: 1092 Registered: 06-2004 |
Detroit rail line chugs forward Senate passes key components of plan for project along Woodward Gary Heinlein and Tanveer Ali / The Detroit News http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20081205/M ETRO/812050386 | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 8009 Registered: 02-2004 |
On Trainman, where are you? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5292 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: The Tysons Corner area *needs* rail transit. That area, if it were a city, would be in the top 10 largest "downtowns" in the U.S., in terms of square footage of office space. I think beyond Tysons, they're using the completely wrong mode--commuter rail would be far more cost-effective. Good to see the Woodward LRT plan is moving forward. This is very exciting stuff, especially now that it seems the Legislature "gets it". I particularly like the approval of TIF financing to build the line. It's about damned time! | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 900 Registered: 07-2007 |
As one who actually used mass transit to get to Tysons, I agree about the need. But what's wrong with Metro out to Dulles? How is that any different than the lines that run out into the burbs in Maryland? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5294 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^For one, Dulles is about 30 miles from downtown Washington. The proposed Silver Line will extend beyond that into very thinly settled areas of Loudoun County. Currently, the longest line (by far) is the Shady Grove branch of the Red Line, which extends 17.44 miles from Metro Center. The proposed Silver Line will largely run in the median of the Dulles Toll Road. Unlike most of the other suburban tail-ends, the potential for transit-oriented development is extremely limited. Fairfax County, in particular, has even had a difficult time implementing TOD on the existing Orange Line thanks to NIMBYism and fears of traffic and that perpetual "evil"--density. I imagine Loudoun County--where people scared of the urbanism of Arlington flee--will fare even worse in this regard. Access will be almost strictly via park-and-ride lots. I imagine mid-day, nighttime, and weekend ridership numbers will be extremely low, and hardly warrant service every 10-12 minutes. In the meantime, the number of extra rail cars and operators required to cover this distance with this level of service will place enormous financial burdens on WMATA. Comparable distances in Maryland are covered by the MARC Penn Line, which provides sufficient services every hour or so during mid-day, and every 20 minutes at peak. The commuter rail mode allows the operator to capture higher fares. Metro fares are currently capped at $4.50 during rush hour, and $2.35 outside of rush hour. Is it reasonable for a Loudoun County commuter to pay just $4.50 to travel up to 30 miles on an incredibly expensive service? By comparison, MARC fare to BWI (about 30 miles) is $6 each way. The Rosslyn Portal issue is still unresolved. As it stands, peak hour service is congested heading through the tunnel from Rosslyn into DC. The Silver Line will compound this problem, and reduce quality of service in the urban core. WMATA's plan to address this is half-assed: divert half the Blue Line trains across the bridge with the Yellow Line. The system doesn't have enough redundancy in the core to handle an additional suburban spur. They would be much better off re-establishing commuter rail service, building new track along the W&OD line, perhaps, given the service characteristics proposed for the Silver Line. |
