  Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989 Post Number: 117 Registered: 06-2008 |
Not sure if we're allowed to link to other forums, but there's a city-data discussion going on about if Detroit will come back. The answers range from heck no to maybe. Most people are pretty negative right now, since the economy is in the toilet, but it's interesting to see what others think. What do you think? | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1460 Registered: 04-2005 |
i think this topic is lame and unambitious, and i am not in love with it, as you stated i would be. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3951 Registered: 09-2007 |
Hey, they tell it like it is. This city lacks mass transit, good schools, good policing, mass transit, young people & a middle class tax base. That all leads to death. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 514 Registered: 04-2008 |
"Come back" to what? 1985?...1955?...1925?...1885? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5714 Registered: 06-2004 |
define 'death' Detroit will probably contract to a manageable size and then start improving as a city, but it's not going away. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3952 Registered: 09-2007 |
^Big city Detroit as we know it is dead. I can see a Gary or Reno-size Detroit still around. "Detroit, The Littlest Big City In The World" (Message edited by DetroitRise on November 21, 2008) | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2269 Registered: 03-2008 |
That does not always mean death. People are a factor... the crash cart for Detroit. All of the above can and will be fixed. Furthermore, cities are dreams made real. The dreams that powered the Motor City were dormant, not dead. Transit is in the works. I see more jobs coming because of that. That will eventually mean more businesses and families staying or moving here (those are the people and organizations who will set the stage for much better public schools). That will lead to demand for better police and political accountability. Then lower taxes and insurance, along with more green projects will follow. Wash rinse repeat... area by area, 1 x 1, ending with the satellite cities. Please, tell me why this won't happen. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3953 Registered: 09-2007 |
^I never said it wouldn't happen, but the critical question is how soon will it happen? (to much damage is being done to SE Michigan right now) Many other cities (and states) caught on 25 years ago & nipped it in the bud, that's why they didn't reach the same position as Detroit (and Michigan). Sorry, everything "in the works" may just happen too little too late. The smaller we get, the worse we'll be treated (in terms of reputation & funding). No one's going to fund a new transit system in a "rapidly" shrinking city. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 2913 Registered: 01-2006 |
"Transit is in the works." Sorry I'm late. When did that get started? Can I watch? | ||
Mwilbert Member Username: Mwilbert Post Number: 448 Registered: 11-2007 |
It could happen, but you need to look at the strength of the headwinds. The city is embedded in a unarguably declining region of an arguably declining country, and within that region it has a concentration of stuff that businesses and families mostly like to avoid. It will take a lot of changes for things to turn out well. Of course, we are at a moment when the future is particularly unclear, and perhaps the world will change in a way that is more favorable for Detroit. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 2737 Registered: 08-2007 |
New transit systems built for the space and needs may work just fine. Many smaller cities have great transit. I can think of Boston and Portland (OR) right now, but there must be others. San Francisco is another. Portland's light rail is relatively recent. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3954 Registered: 09-2007 |
Well off the top of my head, I can name 4 differences between Detroit & Boston or San Francisco (density, stable/growing population, economic center, and area of region). Sorry, those cities are just poor examples... | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2270 Registered: 03-2008 |
Well that is the gamble, isn't it? I've calculated the odds. I'm in, so I'll count after the dealing's done. When has the future ever been clear? You are probably right. Maybe you should sit it out?  ... "Waiting, watching, restoration for those who stay. Waving to those that walk away." | ||
Hamtragedy Member Username: Hamtragedy Post Number: 340 Registered: 10-2007 |
I've been waiting, watching, and restoring, especially restoring, but I've finally detached myself emotionally. Six years ago there was much promise and anticipation. Now, its more resignation. But I'm still restoring, even with the scrappers running amuck. | ||
Ktkeller08 Member Username: Ktkeller08 Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2008 |
Sorry, but if anyone thinks Detroit will ever be as it once was, they are mistaken. Most of those old memories are lost forever. Detroit, as well as many other Midwestern cities, needs to find some new reasons for existing, things that might already be there. It won't be easy, but Detroit can be world class once again... it's just going to take a LOT of work, and a heck of a lot of time. | ||
Kryptonite Member Username: Kryptonite Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2008 |
Ktkeller, I think you're right, the Midwest and even Northeast are losing importance. You don't hear much about cities like Cleveland, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Milwaukee, etc. like in the past. Detroit is falling into that category I'm afraid. The future urban centers are Atlanta, Dallas, Charlotte, Phoenix, places like that I believe. Midwestern cities are no longer major employment centers offering high wages to unskilled workers. That was what made the cities grow so much and unfortunately those types of jobs are gone forever. I have a lot of hope for Detroit as an entertainment city, but the odds are against the city, there are just too many social problems. But the nightlife has boomed in recent years and Downtown is looking very nice in areas and the riverfront is transforming. so, some hope for improvement at least? | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 2738 Registered: 08-2007 |
Atlanta has shown how hard a water shortage can hit, and Phoenix is right up there with the water thing. If you think an industry tottering on the brink is bad, wait to see how a long term shortage of water will hit things. | ||
Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989 Post Number: 118 Registered: 06-2008 |
Maybe Phoenix will have to buy water from Detroit. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2273 Registered: 03-2008 |
Hamtragedy, I feel ya'. I know all about failure and feeling hopeless or frustrated. However, sometimes the way backward, is the way forward. I had to to leave the city to get back on the horse a couple times (talk about ruining your credibility and authenticity... which is how that is viewed around here). Do what you have to do, but don't do what most people do; Most people choose to give up the moment they realize they have to start over again. PS: My measly two cents does not apply to more than a very few. Everyone has a slightly different hand, and others are going to have no idea what the heck I am talking about, and probably laugh, ridicule, and try to discredit me. Sigh... I wounder if the day will come when you get used to that, and realize making points is pointless. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2275 Registered: 03-2008 |
Oh, and you have me beat with your six years. I've only truly been at this for something like five (I'm not really keeping track)...  Maybe you have some advice for me? | ||
Hamtragedy Member Username: Hamtragedy Post Number: 341 Registered: 10-2007 |
Actually, its more like 38 yrs. (Renaissance '85). Six years ago was about as positive and bright as it's ever been round these parts. I was working on some really cool houses in neighborhoods around town that people had written off, and things were looking brighter. But that was six years ago before high natural gas & gasoline prices, and inflated appraisals, and police cuts. The rest of the story we're feellin' right now. As for the advice, and I've told you this before Sean, you still need to get out more, what, with 2300 posts in eight months. Thats like three every minute:P | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2276 Registered: 03-2008 |
Point taken, and you are absolutely right. I'm not trying to sound like a donkey. It was my opinion, more than advice. I look at you guys as peers, but know I have a ton to learn. I'm taking some web site development classes (learning the scripting languages I don't know). It gets extremely frustrating at times. I'm not "back" until December... I really am just homesick. All apologies. No worries though. I won't have a ton of Internet access after this weekend, and next month I start my first MOF. You'll be rid of me for awhile. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2284 Registered: 03-2008 |
I got an interesting e-mail today; from a Yahoo address (my reply was returned). I usually keep hate mail to myself, but I thought I'd share, just this once. It's somewhat relevant, because I really would argue that this type of thinking is holding you all back (I won't say us, since I'm apparently unworthy of being considered a "real" Detroiter). It also runs counter to the belief that "the people" are even willing to bring Detroit back. Excerpt: "WE ARE NOT PEERS!!!! WE DONT WANT YOU HERE GO BACK TO EXURBAN TRAILER TRASH CANTON!! YOU OWN NOTHING IN THE CITY (expletive) MAYBE IT IS TIME YOU LEFT MOMMY AND DADDY AND MOVE TO REEL DETROIT!!!! GET IT THREW YOUR HEAD NO ONE LIKES YOU AND WE DONT WANT YOU HERE!!!!!!!" PS: Whoever that was, thanks for putting me in my place. You are oh so clearly that much better than me. However, I've already had majority of my friends (or more like their parents/family) in the suburbs, choose to outcast me. Apparently, a number on the urban side want to outcast me too. So, that means I have no reason to care what you think... so I think I want to still call myself a Detroiter. If you don't like it... well there is nothing you can do, is there? Well, except maybe keep talking and filling your soul with hate. I wounder what I am doing that you envy so much? PPS: Oh, and my Mom is in the hospital, my Dad was laid off from GM, I have never lived in Canton, and it's "real", not "reel". Go ahead and keep talking... grrr. (Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on November 24, 2008) | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 2920 Registered: 01-2006 |
Sean_of, are you a grade-school teacher? I ask because I'm curious about how you happened to piss off the 3rd-grader who sent you that e-mail. | ||
Docterry Member Username: Docterry Post Number: 141 Registered: 08-2008 |
Right, Ravine. Oh, and I think we can assume two more things - you aren't this person's "peer" and should probably be glad of it. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 2921 Registered: 01-2006 |
Sean_of is young, enthusiastic, positive, and bursting with energy. Those qualities tend to piss off folks who equate "older & wiser" with "worn out & cynical beyond redemption." | ||
Ashdetroit Member Username: Ashdetroit Post Number: 30 Registered: 08-2008 |
Where the heck did your pen pal pull "exurban" from? Sounds like you pissed off a 3rd grade urban studies student. Sean, best wishes for your mom's health. | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5165 Registered: 09-2003 |
Good grief; buck up folks. One would think you are talking about Calcutta. Having been in Detroit for several decades now I have seen a few gloomy and seemingly hopeless periods. The gloom and doomers were all over those place each time, like those guys with robes and beard in the cartoons holding "The End of the Word is Coming". This isn't anything new; it will pass just like they passed. I lived amid the riot, the heroin age with its 800+ murder year, the double digit unemployment years of the early 80's, factory shutdowns, the crack epidemic with every night gunfire and now this. But you know what? Life went on, everybody wasn't killed and robbed or left. Detroit [and I always mean all international metropolis Detroit] in spite of having its industry handed over to slave society foreign manufacturers, wrecked by unrestrained urban sprawl and redlining just kept rolling along. And you know? That just frustrates the hell out of gloomsters and Detroit haters. They just don't get. Why isn't everyone as smart as they are and clearly see that everything is totally and hopelessly f***ed up? The reason is... that view point goes nowwhere, does little more other than perhaps providing some perverse satisfaction. It gets nothing done. Meanwhile the people who are the ones who make things great are hard at work building the next era. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 2923 Registered: 01-2006 |
Har! The moderator double-posted! (Although I noticed that post #2 is not exactly identical to post #1.) Just toying with the boss. I get sick of the bullshit aspects of our city, too, but I'll tellya something: When I've been out of town, even to places which are really nice, I am always glad to return to Detroit. Why? Because it's Home, that's why. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 2947 Registered: 02-2007 |
Isn't it nice to come home? Sure, things look bleak here now, that's Detroit and Big3 roller coaster. As Lowell points out, it always comes back around. Was thinking about this over the weekend, if we totally lose the Big3 which I really doubt is going to happen, Detroit will still be here. More appealing to new industry looking for talent and existing infrastructure. I've lived elsewhere, as much as this place can get you down, this town has something a lot of places don't: Character. Nothing phony or pretentious, it's a real city. we don't have glittery facades masking replicas, we have real structures. Nothing here looks like like anywhere else, we don't need anybody else's identity, we have our own. When we see something historic here, It wasn't put here for that purpose as an attraction, it just IS here. Love it or hate it, this is a "real" city. Whenever one travels around the city, they will always see someone or something that invokes some sort of emotion, whether it be laughter or disbelief, it's very entertaining. | ||
Hamtragedy Member Username: Hamtragedy Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2007 |
HA! My friends just started calling Hamtramck an INBURB. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 2924 Registered: 01-2006 |
Sstashmoo, I offer my most sincere admiration and applause in honor of the final paragraph of your post. Bravo! It's kinda funny, how "character" & "charm" both begin with the same four letters. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 14822 Registered: 12-2003 |
The difference might just be with how they're received, same actions with varying reactions. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 786 Registered: 10-2005 |
far be it from me to insult the host of this little party, but come on! quote: Everyone didn't leave Detroit, but you (and about a million others) did. quote: This rant coming from a resident of Farmington hills? quote: Maybe because they actually still live, or work, or deal with the COD failings on a daily basis and are tired of suburbanites telling them to be positive or to 'get over it' because (back before they left and created the sprawl) it was a lot worse? quote: ...yes, and for all the reasons you cite they've moved to do it somewhere else, like Chicago. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 7979 Registered: 02-2004 |
Detroit will come back, By the year 2050 and its going to have a more skyscrapers that could reach the heavens like the Tower of Babel. It's going to have a better Detroit Public School System, Police Force, A reformed city leaders, great city services, better ethnically diverse neighborhoods instead of a full African American holocaustic ghetto. Plus a two Alien Race called the Tau-Cetis and Centurians will live here. building their own businesses and not relying a global corporate trade. Plus the population will over 2,349,997. Detroit will be no longer a African American dominate city but ethnically diverse like New York L.A. and Chicago. Vacant and abandon houses and buildings will no longer existed and in fact the property value would more compare with the Five Snobbyvilles of Grosse Pointe and Birmingham combine. So expansive that no low-income family will NEVER buy a Detroit home, condo or even a luxury apart ever again. Subsidize housing will mostly in the slummy suburbs and not in the fancy ex-urbs and we see a dramatic surprise that The Detroit Lions win their first Super Bowl Championship. AHH, What a Dream! I hope I would come true. | ||
Lodgedodger Member Username: Lodgedodger Post Number: 968 Registered: 05-2008 |
No matter what, I still love this town. I always will. | ||
Kryptonite Member Username: Kryptonite Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2008 |
True, I have lived in a few other cities and visited many others and still Detroit feels like the right place for me to be. I like city and suburbs both. And for once it's nice to see Downtown transforming and attracting foot traffic and night life again. I'm in Downtown often and it amazes me that so many young people are enjoying it. Detroit definitely is not heaven and yet it's inspiring to read so many positive postings on this web site and to realize you are not the only person that loves Detroit. | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 1031 Registered: 08-2006 |
I dont know I just spent a weekend in Chicago (WOW!!!) I know its comparing two different beasts but I saw a few similarities such as economic troubles, spreading blight, decreasing services, etc. But Chicago is such a destination you could be there for weeks and never do the same thing twice and thats just downtown! Chicago seems to have a diversified economy and a transit system that is really well laid out. The skyscrapers there blow me away everytime I go. I think that we should look to Chicago for how to do things in some cases as we are close cities in the same region. Chicago is also loosing population but not as bad as Detroit and there suburbs are growing at a very fast rate. Will County is the only booming county in the US outside of the sunbelt. Even with the growing suburbs Chicago can still hold its own. I think the biggest problems with our city is political corruption and a large population that just dont give a F$@^ I took a surface Street called Archer Ave in from the suburbs and I have to admit I was surprised to go through the neighborhoods and all the way in and see only ONE boarded up house. I see why people move there instead of here, but I missed home and the D as crazy as that sounds. Detroit and Chicago share many similarities and I found a new one. On the west side the city has Garfield Ridge which seems A LOT like Warrendale, except that Garfield Ridge isnt crumbling. http://www.cyburbia.org/forums /showthread.php?t=17918&highli ght=garfield+ridge http://www.cyburbia.org/forums /showthread.php?p=317226 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G arfield_Ridge,_Chicago | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3958 Registered: 09-2007 |
Yes Higgs, tell 'em! | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5170 Registered: 09-2003 |
I will respond because the poster obviously knows nothing of my past and fails to understand that when I speak of Detroit I speak of all Detroit, not just the COD. As for having 'to live, or work, or deal with the failings on a daily basis' I would be happy to compare my experiences with that of the poster above. Every item I listed, I experienced. I lived in the center of the 1967 riot then in Highland Park for almost 30 years [I guess that makes me a suburbanite], moving there at the height of the flight, the 800+ murder year, [the murder rate in Highland Park was actually higher that the CoD], buying a house, restoring it, raising a child there, being robbed with a gun to my head, witnessing shoot outs at a crack house across the street [and then organizaing with neighbors to eliminate it], fighting off the building of a waste incinerator in Highland Park, watching the diminishment of city services, having property broken into and stolen and on and on. One thing I never did, nor will do, is become a whiney Detroit-bashing hater like a lot of newbies who move into a secure zone of Detroit, usually temporarily for school or something, make sounds as if they know anything about it, and think that their two minutes there gives them the platform to beat up on both the city and the region. The fact that I live where I live is a direct result of my buying an incredible house for next nothing from some flighters, living in it for decades, restoring it, and finally selling it for such a profit that I live debt free where I damn well please in the historical village of Farmington. The same opportunity I had in my young adult years are there today in, by comparison, a far safer city than the one in which I entered and lived. Incredible prices with for-sure-to-pay-off properties abound. All you need is elbow grease and an anti-hate attitude. I had a lot tough of times but the good times and good people so far outnumbered the bad and that is what I choose to remember and build on. I have been to truly impoverished cities of our world and, folks, even in its worst times any place in our cities is paradise in comparison. I have always seen hope, promise and opportunity in all the international metropolis I love and will work for its betterment in spite of those who try to drag it down. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 8244 Registered: 02-2007 |
I wouldn't call Will County suburban Chicago anymore than I would call St Clair County or Genesee suburban Detroit | ||
Ashdetroit Member Username: Ashdetroit Post Number: 36 Registered: 08-2008 |
Lowell, I agree with most of your post and the opinions you share here on your site. But I don't understand this Detroit obsession with rejecting safety, which you mentioned by ridiculing people who move into a "secure zone". It is so Detroit to sneer at anyone who lives somewhere secure--like downtown, or Midtown, where I live--instead of, I guess, being a resident of the "real Detroit". "Real Detroit", I take it from your post,includes watching shootouts and getting robbed at gunpoint. For a young woman such as myself living alone in the city, safety IS important. I'm not going to jeopardize my safety for Detroit cred. It's counterproductive for others to look down on people like myself for making that choice. Whether you're living in Brightmoor or the Book-Cadillac, you're still living in Detroit: patronizing Detroit businesses, making your family and friends visit, contributing to the tax base, and proving that people CAN make a great life in this city. | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5172 Registered: 09-2003 |
Ashdetroit, there is absolutely no rejection of concern for safety of my part. I would hope my own victimizations would make that clear. Did I leave out the story of the serial murderer Benjamin Atkins who left his victims in an abandoned motel on Woodward a half block from my house? I don't ridicule anyone who lives anywhere; my barb was aimed only at those few who think because the live inside of this or that boundary it gives them a platform to trash Detroit and whine about how tough they have it, when they really don't and have only been there for a minute. It is like someone being a Vietnam era 'veteran' who did their all service comfortably Germany and then advocates loudly for war. I draw the line between those who care about Detroit [all of it], no matter where they live, and work for its betterment and those who, no matter where they live, uncritically tear it down. Living in Detroit for a minute and thinking one has the 'cred' to trash it just doesn't float my boat anymore than does the same hate coming from some snowbilly out on Eighty-five mile road. | ||
Hamtragedy Member Username: Hamtragedy Post Number: 344 Registered: 10-2007 |
She does make a great point about female safety. The chickadees hate walking around hamtown, even with the dog, even during the day, just because of the friggin' weirdos and idiots. Street cred is as much greeting perfect strangers walkin' down the street (or the head-nod drivin down the sidestreets), rather than putting your head down or looking away. As for Chicago, a drive southeast from the Loop (not on the Skyway) will show you how fucked up that town is. In the last 15 years, values went nuts on the North side, forcing people into the cheaper suburbs. But very few chose to move to the vastly larger and blacker south side, despite the fact that beautiful houses and neighborhoods (not much unlike our own) remain, yet are being left to fend for themselves. It's Chicago's not very well kept secret. Plus, there's trash blowin' around everywhere. "Chicago. The City That Works. Except on the South Side" | ||
Ashdetroit Member Username: Ashdetroit Post Number: 39 Registered: 08-2008 |
Well, Lowell, we both love this city--I'm glad we have that much in common. I have only been living here for a year, and every day still seems like an adventure. I'll say this for the benefit of you haters--there is so much history and opportunity and truly unique stories lingering in Detroit, I don't know how one could grow bored with it. I hope it takes me a long time. I love exploring here. I think we Detroiters are a little tougher than people living in gaudy new cities--and more human. We don't take things for granted. We try to help the little guy. In a big city like LA or Chicago, you would just be one of the masses...one of the millions. In Detroit, the opportunity is available to become someone who matters--and to make a huge impact on your community. Detroit needs work, yes, but it's going to get better. I believe that. |
