  Detroitman Member Username: Detroitman Post Number: 1090 Registered: 06-2004 |
Rail station chosen for Detroit Metro Airport by John Mulcahy | The Ann Arbor News Wednesday November 26, 2008, 8:32 PM http://www.mlive.com/annarborn ews/news/index.ssf/2008/11/rai l_station_chosen_for_detroi.ht ml | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6456 Registered: 10-2003 |
This is literally a block or so east of Merriman and Michigan. I wonder what stopped them from working out an agreement for a structure at Merriman? | ||
Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 79 Registered: 10-2007 |
Lmichigan, I imagine they chose Henry Ruff & Michigan Avenue because it already has parking and a building (currently the Wayne County Library for the Blind they want to work out of). Here is the current progress regarding the service: As you all may or may not be aware, this project is being separated into two phases (three if you count the eventual high speed portion, but that doesn't tie into this project). The first phase will have four round trip trains and will be done as much on the cheap as possible. The only new track that will be laid will be at West Detroit Junction, which will help in avoiding the sharp S-curve as the tracks switch from Conrail north to Canadian National trackage. Ultimately, this could cut off 10 minutes between Dearborn and Detroit and you wouldn't have to experience this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =hU-PViAYFzs For this demonstration phase, the Ann Arbor and Detroit stops will be at their current locations. There is no news on Ypsilanti. But Carmine Palombo said a while back that most likely a large bus shelter will be constructed in Depot Town by the parking lot next to the old MCRR station. As for Dearborn, the new stop will be in West Dearborn where there is a parking lot right now. They're thinking of moving the Amshack station there or constructing a new one. If the project is successful, Dearborn wants to build a big $15 million intermodal station. If this project becomes a success and federal grants can be secured, phase 2 would have 8 to 15 round trip trains per day. Also, the whole route from Detroit to Ann Arbor would be re-double tracked. Because Canadian National isn't being very cooperative, they're looking at moving the station to the other two tracks opposite of the current station, which Conrail / NS owns for phase 2. A new station would be built. Palombo said that in talks with some Ann Arbor officials, the station in Ann Arbor may be moved to another location with more parking for phase 2. No figures on the fare and ridership study, or the capacity & cost studies, have been released yet. But like noted above, four trains is the goal. It seems that Norfolk Southern & Conrail are fine, but Canadian National only wants two. His team is in talks with CN about trying for two more trains. Palombo also said he is going to give a public update on the progress before the end of the year. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 2172 Registered: 08-2007 |
Aren't there rail lines directly at the intersection of Merriman and 94? http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&hl=en&geocode=&q=merriman+an d+94&sll=42.288278,-83.334957& sspn=0.001762,0.010943&ie=UTF8 &ll=42.236763,-83.340322&spn=0 .001763,0.003433&t=h&z=18 Why would anyone wait to get on a bus just so they could go to lovely Inkster and wait to get on a train? Placement of the train station wouldn't have anything to do with The Flight Club: strip joint to the young and dumb? http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&hl=en&geocode=&q=henry+ruff+ and+industrial+drive,+inkster& sll=42.236763,-83.340322&sspn= 0.001763,0.003433&ie=UTF8&ll=4 2.286199,-83.336041&spn=0.0070 48,0.013733&t=h&z=16 Who goes to Inkster except hookers recovering from beating or pimps looking to beat their 'hos? Inkster? Doesn't anyone know the place rhymes with sphincter? "Welcome ladies and gentlemen to Detroit, your first stop will be in Sphinkster, where you'll have a breath-taking view of our tittie bar. Enjoy your three hour wait." What am I missing here? How can this possibly be good news? It's a huge waste of everything. Explain to me the draw of getting off my plane, waiting for my bags, waiting for the shuttle bus to Lovely Inkster, then waiting some more. They are talking 4 round trips a day. With those wait times coupled with only four trips, the result will be that a train trip downtown will take several hours.An entire day spent waiting just to get to an airport so you can wait some more. That putz in the Mlive article is quoted as saying that 30 million people are waiting for this annoucement. 30 million,... if that train has 10,000 riders the first year, I'll be amazed. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6457 Registered: 10-2003 |
Gnome, did you try following the that line to see where it does and doesn't go? That line doesn't go through Ann Arbor, it shoots straight southwest to the middle of Nowhere, Michigan. Apologies in advance to all of the good, God-fearing folks of Nowhere, Michigan. (Message edited by lmichigan on November 27, 2008) | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 2174 Registered: 08-2007 |
No, I followed it all the way east to Milwaukee Junction. Thanks for clearing that up and talking me off my early morning ledge. I still think an Inkster Station is madness. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 813 Registered: 04-2006 |
I used to take the SMART bus to Inkster to transfer onto the Michigan bus to continue on to Dearborn. SMART provided good service and the transfer was only about 3 to 10 minutes. The drivers were nice and the buses were always clean and on-time. That's why I think the public should support the return of SMART to Livonia. The vast majority of Livonia residents wanted to keep SMART but it was poor management of city taxes and state funding cuts that cost us our large public buses which were mostly full in the early morning and late afternoons. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 883 Registered: 07-2007 |
The station will be physically located in Westland if that makes you feel any better Gnome. http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&hl=en&geocode=&q=30555+Michi gan+Avenue+westland+mi&sll=42. 286913,-83.339034&sspn=0.00635 8,0.013947&ie=UTF8&ll=42.28650 1,-83.340493&spn=0.006358,0.01 3947&t=h&z=17&g=30555+Michigan +Avenue+westland+mi | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 340 Registered: 04-2007 |
Actually, this location makes perfect sense for this demonstration project. First, the location is in Westland, not Inkster. Inkster is across Henry Ruff. This is the old Eloise property. Henry Ruff is a short 5 minute walk to Merriman, and a longer half-mile to Middlebelt. Those are the two access roads to the airport from the north. The county already owns the property. I believe they own the property north and south of the rail line. The corner of Merriman and Michigan has two large water storage tanks (at least I think they are still there), so there would be some major infrastructure issues if the station were put at that end of the property. They could but a bus loop that swings back to Merriman south of the tracks with signal priority and it will work fine. At this demonstration stage, no one is going to walk to the station anyway... it will just be a very busy transfer between rail and the shuttle busses for the terminals. There will be plenty of room for parking if people want to drive to the station for any reason. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 2176 Registered: 08-2007 |
Thank you Novine, Parkguy and Lmichigan. I'm grateful everyone feels so generous in showing me the error of my ways. I'm fine now. I can't wait to experience the way of the future, just never thought it would go through Inkster. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5496 Registered: 02-2005 |
Honestly, what's the difference between Westland and Inkster? Big deal. I'm glad to hear any news but I think a station 4 miles from the airport is not good enough. The bus service ought to literally non-stop. A dedicated rail line between this station and the terminal would be much better in the long run. | ||
Texorama Member Username: Texorama Post Number: 319 Registered: 12-2006 |
A bus that's as frequent as the ones for the parking lots will work. In Oakland, CA, you take a bus to the mass transit system, in a station that's in a dicey neighborhood, and people still think nothing of riding it. | ||
Detroitman Member Username: Detroitman Post Number: 1091 Registered: 06-2004 |
Mackinaw, I believe in Metro Airport's long range planning that they do have plans to have a monorail run between the terminals and this stop along the AA-Detroit Commuter rail line. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 341 Registered: 04-2007 |
Remember, this whole project is a demonstration project, designed to get baseline data to show a need for a permanent system. The federal government won't give funds for systems that have no ridership data. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1048 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:What do you mean by that? The only definition of "literally nonstop" I can think of doesn't make a whole lot of sense. How are you supposed to get on and off of a bus that doesn't stop? | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 409 Registered: 02-2008 |
Bearinabox, Keanu Reeves will help you! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6458 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ha! Good one, Dtowncitylover. That said, I also share the concern of even mentioning just four trips. I'm not saying that it automatically sets up the demonstration for failure, but it almost does. And, yes, it was reported months back that if the demonstration proves successful that there were already plans to study extending a people mover out of the North Terminal to the station. BTW, Gnome, I'm glad you calmed down because you wouldn't believe how badly I was biting my tongue in replying to your original hyperbole and vitriol. lol | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 884 Registered: 07-2007 |
How quickly will private enterprise start advertising cab rides from the station to the airport and how quickly will the County try to quash it for trying to cut into their business? Why wait for a bus? Don't you think there will be cabs looking to make a quick fare shuttling people from the station and back? | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2303 Registered: 03-2008 |
Gnome, that's what Oakland County and Livonia have been saying about Detroit for years... | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3963 Registered: 09-2007 |
quote: LOL! And except for the occasional event, they still do. A trip to downtown Detroit is not a typical thing for Oakland County. Troy is their downtown.  | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3964 Registered: 09-2007 |
quote: Then tell me why Livonia's mayor had a cow when Quicken announced it was moving? This region (which Detroit should anchor) hates regional cooperation. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 581 Registered: 09-2004 |
It is convenient that much of the route between AA and Detroit was never singletracked. Only the portion between CP-Mort (Greenfield Village) and the Wayne diamond, and from CP-Ypsi (Roughly the area on the east side of Ypsi) to the AA station are single track. Adding the connection track at CP-West Detroit will speed things up for both commuter trains and shave time off for Amtrak between DBN and DET. Not to dispute you Ljbad, but I was told that phase 1 would also involve laying a second track in the area just west of CP-Mort, the sight of the new Dearborn Amtrak station. Not a full second track all the way to Wayne, but just a second track through the station to permit trains to pass here. It will be nice for Dearborn to have a new Amtrak station. The Amshack currently in place is too small for the crowds passing through the state's third busiest station! It is ironic that not only might they relay the second track, but the old yard that was in place until around 1990 in front of the AA Amtrak station may also be relaid as a terminal for the commuter trains to spend the night, and additional platforms. Anyhow, please keep us informed on the progress! | ||
Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2007 |
Busterwmu, it is possible that one of the tracks could extend west an extra quarter mile. If Mr. Palombo or another project collaborator told you something, then it may be true. I was just going by the presentation they had in Dearborn a week or two ago. Go to the link below, slides 33 - 35. http://www.cityofdearborn.org/ news/trainstation/index.html As for the terminal for the trains for this project, a while back in an update, Palombo said they were reviewing a site in West Ann Arbor. It seems that Amtrak trains need to go through tests and cleaning. Some railfan guy asked about terminal location and Palombo said Owosso(sp?) and some other place. Owosso(sp?) is pretty far away. It would be nice if they had something closer. Actually, Buster, if you know any information that isn't public knowledge yet, go ahead and share it. It's always good to hear some news. Did a member of the project mention something about putting the terminal at Ann Arbor station? | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 582 Registered: 09-2004 |
Ljbad, it looks like the city is considering starting off with either leaving the single track or adding the second track, as you said, for a short distance west probably moving the switch to single track to the area near Oakwood Blvd. This would allow trains to pass and arrive/depart simultaniously. Although leaving the single track may be the cheaper starting option, they certainly aren't losing anything by doing it now, as a second track would be part of phase II if not included in phase I anyhow. Thanks for providing the link to the presentation, I was not able to attend myself. As for the Owosso rumor for a train terminal, are you sure this person who asked wasn't referring to the WALLY project from Howell to Ann Arbor? The tracks that WALLY wuld use are owned by the Ann Arbor RR and the Great Lakes Central. The GLC mainline continues north of Howell and goes directly to Owosso, which would make that somewhat feasible. From AA to Owosso is probably 60 miles, so to base the trains there for this Michigan Line commuter rail, they would have to travel all the way down the GLC into Ann Arbor, back up around a reinstated connecting track between the AA and NS/Amtrak line, then proceed forward into the AA Amtrak station. I was more presuming that stating that the area near the Amtrak station in Ann Arbor would be used for a terminal. It's no joke that the Ann Arbor station is about as inefficient as the Dearborn one - except somehow Ann Arbor serves twice as many passengers per year! The station staff is great but the waiting room is just too small. Perhaps there are grand plans to build a new facility there some day, too. (my personal hope is that they can move back in to the historic MCRR station just to the East) Anyhow, the track through the present AA station is single track, with a platform already laid to put a second track on the outside. Until the late 80s, there was a small freight yard across from the present station, and that right of way still exists with nothing built on it today. Since they have the land, it would make sense to put an end-of-line terminal there for the commuter trains. Doesn't mean it's going to happen though. Again, i appreciate reading your updates. If I find anything else out, I'll be sure to post. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 344 Registered: 04-2007 |
I really appreciate people knowledgable about railroads posting this information. Thanks! | ||
Eastsideal Member Username: Eastsideal Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2007 |
Some nice information here from the railroad folks - thank you. But 4 trips a day sure sounds like a recipe for failure. In order for this idea to work - particularly the airport connection - it has to be available when people want and need it, not the few times that CN decides to make its precious tracks available. If the service isn't consistently available at reasonable intervals (and the bus connection run smoothly with no or very short wait times) then it won't be of much use to the overwhelming majority of people going from Detroit or Ann Arbor to the airport. Which means it won't do a damn thing to alleviate the traffic on 94, and very likely won't generate the necessary ridership figures to be sustainable. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6470 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Busterwmu, What train station isn't inefficient, these days? Are you familiar with the tiny Amtrak station that serves the entire Lansing area? The thing is almost a literal shak tucked behind a tree-line parking lot in East Lansing, and Detroit's is absolutely pitiful for a city its size. Amtrak's largely unimpressive facilities in most parts of the country is due to little more than benign neglect. It's unimpressive, because our public officials have been telling us for decades how crappy it is. Well, after awhile it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, no? Sorry about the rant, but just thinking about what passes for rail stations in most parts of the US boils my blood. Really, you look at these things and you think to yourself "Of course. Who'd want to ride something like this?" When you set something up for failure and, surprise, it usually fails. The amazing thing is that Amtrak has been able to survive for as long as it has. | ||
Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 81 Registered: 10-2007 |
On the bright side, some cities still use their old impressive-looking MCRR stations. Jackson, Kalamazoo and Niles come to mind. Ann Arbor's old station is a restaurant. Ypsi's former station is still up but in very bad shape. After fires and runaway trains, it is now only one floor. If you go through the presentation I posted, you'll see that Dearborn wants to build a new huge station that looks like a "real" train station. | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 410 Registered: 02-2008 |
Lmichigan, I think the Detroit station is a good size. It shouldn't matter how big the city is, but how many lines it serves, and that's 1. Pittsburgh, on the other hand serves 2 Amtrak lines and one transit line and needs a bigger stations, and has one larger than us. Sure it may not be impressive, but that's all we need. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6472 Registered: 10-2003 |
But, it's all you need because our political leaders have been stonewalling and working against Amtrak for years, now. Again, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's all Detroit needs because they've been telling Detroit that that is all they need. Let's be clear, as a quasi-government operation, Amtrak was allowed to fall as far as it did. It is no in dispute that the rise of airline travel would make for a smaller passenger train pool, but we didn't go from MCS to something a bit less grand. We went from MCS to a box on Woodward you'd miss on the road if you blinked, and it was by design. (Message edited by lmichigan on November 30, 2008) | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 731 Registered: 08-2007 |
While I do enjoy the fact that I could walk to the "METRO AIRPORT" station. I am also a resident of the City of Wayne, which also means that I would love to see a Wayne Depot for this project. But you can,t have it all. I would not mind hopping on a train to Ann Arbor, and visiting my friends in Howell who live by the tracks would be even better.I went to A2 yesterday didn,t have to drive, can,t belive what things along the side of the road I have missed or forgotten about while doing the driving myself. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1542 Registered: 11-2003 |
The East Lansing Amtrak station was originally a lumberyard office/showroom! Busterwmu-- Not to nitpick, but Great Lakes Central's portion of the old Ann Arbor is actually owned by the State of Michigan, not GLC. The platform for an additional track in AA was installed decades ago when the 2nd track was still there. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 586 Registered: 09-2004 |
I'm right there with you guys, having visited most of the Amtrak stations in the state and seeing plenty of others on my travels across the country. Traffic on the Blue Water through East Lansing is up and the station for our Capitol City is woefully inadequate... but how about Grand Rapids? Not only is the station small, but you can't even buy a ticket from a real person there! The second biggest city in Michigan and a real live person can't even sell you a ticket. And the Grand Rapids station serves basically the same number of passengers as Battle Creek. Except BC has 8 departures a day, and GR has two. The restoration of several former Michigan Central stations along the line has been beneficial. Jackson, Albion, Kalamazoo, Dowagiac, and Niles all have them in service. The Pere Marquette Line also has restored stations at Holland, Bangor, and St. Joe. No one can forget the Blue Water's magnifiscent station at Durand, either. Not all of these stations only function as Amtrak stations and many are now multi-modal or mixed use, but at least they are there. Kalamazoo recently completed a huge renovation/restoration of their MCRR station, enlarging the waiting room and increasing capacity, and it still gets crowded on the weekends. That's the second busiest station in the state! We won't even discuss the bus shelter "stations" at Birmingham, Royal Oak, and New Buffalo... It would be nice if Troy and Birmingham would stop fighting over money and build this transit center they've been talking about since the early part of the decade on the land that was donated for that purpose. DTownCityLover, I agree with you about station size, but your arguement seems a little skewed. Pittsburgh does serve both the Capitol Limited (Washington DC-Chicago), and the Pennsylvanian (Pittsburgh-Philly-NYC), but each of those only runs once a day in each direction, for a total of 4 trains a day. Detroit has three Wolverines in each direction, making for 6 total. The Detroit Station is just sad. Interesting how they apparently want to move the Amtrak operation from the CN over to the Conrail there at Woodward... will this mean another new station, or some crap tunnel/bridge to crossover? Reddog, you mention going to Howell. There are two different commuter lines being discussed here, one on the Michigan Line from AA-Detroit, and the WALLY line from AA to Howell. Unfortunately, those two rail lines cross in a rather inconvenient setup, so it's unlikely a single station could be used without some complicated manuvering. | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 411 Registered: 02-2008 |
Thanks Buster, I didn't see what the time were, just saw the line. I would really love a new, better designed station (frankly I don't know how someone could have approved the design for the current station), when the commuter line starts. I remember the building that used to be the Royal Oak station, but perhaps when a commuter line start between Detroit and Pontiac, RO and B-ham can upgrade their platforms they have, or build some sort of stations. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 347 Registered: 04-2007 |
Reddog-- I grew up in and around Wayne, and I'd love to see a station at Wayne Road and Michigan, where it SHOULD be. That might finally perk up downtown Wayne-- which has never been the same since they tried "urban renewal" in the early '70s. They destroyed a nice, historic downtown that would look like Northville today if they hadn't torn it down. And now I see they gave up on saving the old Wayne Theater (not the State-Wayne) and tore it down. (Message edited by parkguy on November 30, 2008) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6475 Registered: 10-2003 |
Busterwmu, Do you have a list showing the rankings of the busiest stations in the state? I see you said that Kazoo's was the second busiest in the state; I'd love to see the ranking of the rest. BTW, I was talking mainly about the large city stations. Many small towns still have their historic stations in use as you showed above. I've actually never seen Grand Rapids. Are there any sites their concerning rail traffic in Michigan? I've always been interested in doing some personal research so I'd have a better idea about possible routes and such for future passenger rail options in the state. BTW, for the Lansing station, do you know if Amtrak uses the CN or CSX rail? If they use the former, I'd love to see the old Grand Trunk station put back in use. It's currently just rotting away. | ||
Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 82 Registered: 10-2007 |
LMichigan, Amtrak runs past Lansing on Canadian National trackage all the way down to Battle Creek. I don't know current figures, but I recall the top 4 used to be: Ann Arbor (busiest), Kalamazoo, Dearborn and Detroit. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 886 Registered: 07-2007 |
"Are there any sites their concerning rail traffic in Michigan? This seems to be the most comprehensive and active one. The forums (Discussion on the menu) are the place to get all of your detailed questions answered. http://www.michiganrailroads.c om/ | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 587 Registered: 09-2004 |
Ljbad is correct, those are still the top 4 depots. Here's a good link which will give you lots of information about the ridership on Amtrak throughout Michigan: http://mdotwas1.mdot.state.mi. us/public/railstats/index.cfm? event=Home About the Grand Rapids station, don't get me wrong, it is a nice little place, kept immaculate by a caretaker, and recently got a facelift. But for a city nearly 200,000 people, with a large suburban population, it just isn't up to par. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1709 Registered: 12-2006 |
The four round trips are in addition to the three round trips to/from Chicago, so in fact there will be seven round trips per day between A-squared and Detroit, if this comes to fruition in its current form. That's not optimal, agreed, but I don't think it's a recipe for failure either. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 3803 Registered: 07-2004 |
All this fuss over Inkster? Poppycock. Besides, Inkster already has a station: http://tinyurl.com/63e2fv | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 738 Registered: 08-2007 |
Parkguy,I know what you mean. When they built the parking deck in Wayne I heard it was for the mass transit railroad that was going to be built back in the 70,s. I hit 40 next year and can remember when Wayne had somewhat of a downtown even after urban renewal.But as with anything I,ll see it when I belive it. |
