 
Nickstone
Member
Username: Nickstone
Post Number: 53
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 3:29 pm: |    |
just noticed this at the intersection of Woodward and "hey anyone remember the model t?"... nice construction but I don't see Strip Mall City as a long term solution for Highland Park. Also meaning to ask... what is that arena looking thing that is being built at Woodward and Seven Mile?
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Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3809
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 3:35 pm: | |
Strip mall city was a confirmed failure a few years ago. I don't think anybody seriously believes that's a viable "solution" for HP's problems any longer. |
Rjlj
Member
Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 754
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 3:40 pm: | |
How do you consider it a failure when there are stores in place, what appears to be low number of vacant storefronts, and new commercial spaces that were recently built with tenants? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3810
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 3:44 pm: | |
Because the big deal of it was that it was not only supposed to be full-up, but it attracted a Farmer Jack to Woodward Avenue. (Dropped by with your Farmer Jack coupons lately?) |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 3:55 pm: | |
It is nice that there are occupied storefronts there, but I don't understand why it had to be designed the way it was. That corner is one of DDOT's biggest transfer points--off the top of my head, the Oakland, Schoolcraft, Puritan, Chicago-Davison, Woodward, SMART Woodward, and SMART John R buses all pass through there. It is in one of the best positions in the city to attract non-automobile traffic, and is about the least pedestrian-friendly intersection this side of Livonia. It makes no sense. How hard would it have been to put the parking behind the stores? |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 8279
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 3:56 pm: | |
that "arena looking thing" was the new home of Wayans' New Perfecting Church. I guess they ran out of bucks |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3812
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:01 pm: | |
Yeah, it's just a one-size-fits-all plan for development. We'll demolish everything, put in lots of curb cuts, more parking that it will ever need, and set it all the way at the back, so people in wheelchairs rolling off DDOT busses have to wheel back about 100 yards in the snow and rain. With these clueless, cookie-cutter development practices, what did they expect?
Oh, yeah. I remember what they expected. In 1998, Metro Times interviewed HP's mayor:
"Imagine an urban center featuring a spanking new, $45 million shopping mail drawing retail-starved shoppers from miles around. The shopping district is surrounded by upscale housing, and its main artery is clogged with commuters who have returned to the city for its convenient location and friendly, safe neighborhoods.
That says Highland Park Mayor Linsey Porter, is what his city will be like in just three years."
Now, there is no Farmer Jack. And that upscale housing we heard about 10 years ago? It was called "North Pointe". (A quick forum search should show equally if not more distressing results.) |
Cub
Member
Username: Cub
Post Number: 994
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:01 pm: | |
The Winans. |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 424
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:02 pm: | |
Alls I can say is UGH. Strip malls are the antithesis of a city. LORD, PLEASE MAKE THEM GO AWAY. |
Nickstone
Member
Username: Nickstone
Post Number: 54
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:21 pm: | |
I have to start with an apology... I realize in re-reading my post and the responses that sometimes my hurried wording can cloud the point or make me come off the wrong way... I now realize "arena-looking-thing" was callously put and that I put a negative spin on the strip mall development thing... well, I don't completely apologize for saying I don't think strip malls are the answer... I mean, most of the ones I see in HP are empty or the things in them are not long term solutions (case in point the many empty or soon to be empty $9 shoe stores... like dollar stores, not a major long term answer)... anyway please forgive me for my sometimes accidental wording... I'm going to go more on picture posts from this point... |
Redetroit
Member
Username: Redetroit
Post Number: 73
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:25 pm: | |
Those greedy developers should be arrested for investing over $8 million into that property. How dare they... |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1052
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:25 pm: | |
What are you talking about, Nick? That post was not in any way offensive, nor was anyone offended by it that I can see. Who are you apologizing to? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3659
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:33 pm: | |
quote:that "arena looking thing" was the new home of Wayans' New Perfecting Church. I guess they ran out of bucks
LOL @ Wayans.
Didn't the Winans just build a church about 10 years ago? |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 8282
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:35 pm: | |
oops. same consonant and vowel sounds, just a different combination. it's monday
I might actually go to a Wayans church |
Nickstone
Member
Username: Nickstone
Post Number: 55
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:38 pm: | |
All I meant is that I have an unfortunate way of getting excited about taking a picture of something that strikes me as interesting and I don't always explain my point well.
I use Woodward all the time to get from downtown where I have lived for some time now to one of the churches I play at (in Ferndale)... I feel like every time I pass through Highland Park I see something different that makes me stop and shake my head... |
Nickstone
Member
Username: Nickstone
Post Number: 56
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:40 pm: | |
"Those greedy developers should be arrested for investing over $8 million into that property. How dare they..."
---my thought about this is that it doesn't take much long-term vision to build strip malls and just assume that things will make it work... I'm not sure if empty land is actually in any way worse than empty strip malls.... |
Lowell
Moderator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 5183
Registered: 09-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 11:13 pm: | |
This is an eye of the beholder issue. If you lived in Highland Park at the time Model T Plaza came as I did, trust me, you were not disappointed to see those decades-old weed lots you passed by suddenly become tax-generating, convenient shopping options that did not require a ride/drive out to Oakland Mall.
As far as 'stripmalls' go, especially inner city ones go, that strip has been successful and continues to grow with a recent addition on the former Sears site anchored by an Aldi.
It is has been built in three phases, the west side first was instantly successful, then the Model T Plaza on the east and now Aldiville.
The old downtown to the south is in shambles and this succeeds for the same reason downtown failed - convenience of evil parking, contemporary retail design and all those things we love to hate.
Is it better than it was before? Far better. Is it bringing in money to a city that desperately needs it? yep. Do the people of Highland Park use it and appreciate it? You bet. Hard to argue with. |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 425
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 11:57 pm: | |
but it's so damn ugly and doesn't do anything to make highland park a unique and attractive place more people want to live.
as much or as little as it's helped matters in the short term, it's not the model we should be aspiring to.
that said i can understand what you're getting at, just kills me a little each time i drive past. |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 1032
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 3:38 am: | |
What kills me more is the startling poverty, abandonment, and other social ills which should be more of a concern that the aesthetic layout of the buildings on Woodward, fix that then you may see the type of building you find OK. I get the urban design gripes but Lowell hit it. How much can people complain about the urban layout of this city while it continues to crumble and little to no investment comes in. It may not be what YOU want but it certainly fills a big need in Highland Park as far as jobs, close by shopping, tax revenue, etc. There is about 150 square miles of land in Detroit, HP, and Hamtramck and I think a few acres of evil strip malls wont hurt it. Who would invest/build the urban transit oriented development if this area wasnt built as is? The realities of Highland Park are far more dire than the urban layout along Woodward. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6480
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 4:24 am: | |
And therein lies the problem, the idea that urban layout is a luxury. The layout of our live, work, and play spaces matters a huge deal in the health of a community. This is some fancy planning mumbo jumbo; it should be simple common sense. In a community as compact as Highland Park, and as someone pointed out deeply woven into the mass transit system infrastructure, the presence of mega-strip malls is even more of an offense than it would be somewhere in Detroit proper. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2184
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 7:00 am: | |
Being in Lansing, LMich, please tells us more about Highland Park being a jem.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard people tell me, "If it wasn't for those fugly strip malls, I'd be buying up HP like a madman."
As someone who is so well informed, please tell us what is holding HP back? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3660
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 8:48 am: | |
quote:Being in Lansing, LMich, please tells us more about Highland Park being a jem.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard people tell me, "If it wasn't for those fugly strip malls, I'd be buying up HP like a madman."
As someone who is so well informed, please tell us what is holding HP back?
You completely missed his point.
The point is that they could have achieved the same goal of bringing shopping and jobs into the area without clearing out 500 square yards for a parking lot. And by devoting so much space to parking, that is probably rarely -- if ever -- used to capacity, you prevent more businesses from locating to the immediate vicinity. So you might bring a few shops to the area, but you pretty much guarantee that those few shops won't ever develop into a shopping district solely because of how you built it. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 5274
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 9:05 am: | |
quote:The point is that they could have achieved the same goal of bringing shopping and jobs into the area without clearing out 500 square yards for a parking lot. And by devoting so much space to parking, that is probably rarely -- if ever -- used to capacity, you prevent more businesses from locating to the immediate vicinity. So you might bring a few shops to the area, but you pretty much guarantee that those few shops won't ever develop into a shopping district solely because of how you built it.
You also:
*waste precious, otherwise-developable land for parking lots
*forego property tax revenues on vast amounts of acreage used for, you guessed it, parking
*alienate customers, which, in a lower-income area like Highland Park, need to be able to access retail options by foot and transit
*psychologically divide communities with wide open pastures of asphalt
These are all items readily addressed through zoning, and don't cost any more money than standard POS strip mall designs. Of course, you can't dare tell a developer to build out to the street and put parking in the rear, because that might show the city won't roll over and concede to his every demand. |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 428
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 10:26 am: | |
thank you lmich, iheart and danin...quality urban space is not as much about aesthetics as it is about quality of life, for everybody. rich. poor. black. white. and everything in between. while i totally get lowell's and other's point--which is no doubt how many see the commercial along woodward--it shouldn't give carte blanche to our leaders to acquiesce to the least common denominator...
what kills me most is the crazy dichotomy between T-Plaza and the largely intact row of blocks just south. to me that says it all about our region's priorities, vision and sense of sustainability.
and this all footsteps from Ford's HP plant, no doubt one of the most important sites in the US, and one whose history, like its progenitor's famous phrase has been reduced to "bunk" status. maybe it's apt that highland park is getting thrown away. it helped invent our throwaway society. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1710
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 10:48 am: | |
We will never have the kind of "urban space" that some of us desire, so long as nearly everybody in the region drives a car to get everywhere.
Urban spaces exist where urban transportation systems exist, and are widely used. We don't have the latter so we won't have the former. You don't get TOD without the T. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2186
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 10:51 am: | |
quote:You completely missed his point.
I didn't miss anything. We are discussing HP Strip Malls which, despite the general opinion here that strip malls are a blight on the American landscape, seems to be house the few open businesses in HP.
The newly openned Aldi is pretty nice. It sells food. Fresh food at cheap prices. I seriously doubt you'll find a single person in HP who longs for the days of a two hour bus ride just to buy hamburger.
Now, are strip malls my ideal of land use? No, but in the case of HP, it seems to be the only bright spot in that bomb-crater of a city. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 5276
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 10:57 am: | |
quote:Urban spaces exist where urban transportation systems exist, and are widely used. We don't have the latter so we won't have the former. You don't get TOD without the T.
To a point, I agree with you, Professorscott. I think it's fallacy to wait for construction of a rail system in order to re-adopt traditional urban design principles, though. There are numerous small towns and cities across the U.S. (including Michigan) who have maintained their character without necessarily constructing a streetcar or rapid transit system.
It really comes down to basic principles of promoting a pedestrian-friendly environment. Included in that, I would expect to see:
*minimal building setbacks and curb cuts
*wide sidewalks
*use of service alleys
*on-street parking
*off-street parking relegated to the rear
*manageable (on foot) roadway intersections
*buildings scaled to street width
*pedestrian accommodations, such as benches, bike racks, newspaper racks, planters, lighting, and yes, bus stops.
These kinds of improvements don't need a billion dollar rail system to be implemented--just some tweaking of the ridiculous zoning regs that mandate parking for the Saturday before Christmas. |
Redetroit
Member
Username: Redetroit
Post Number: 74
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 11:01 am: | |
Has anyone on here "actually" tried to lease space in Highland Park in an urban store-front building, with parking in the rear? |
Detourdetroit
Member
Username: Detourdetroit
Post Number: 429
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 11:29 am: | |
Prof Scott is right to a degree, but we've got to get past an all or nothing condition. we bloody deserve better!!! at least more than drivet facsimiles of the model t and a bunch of blow up photos of what used to be.
also, it's not like TOD couldn't take advantage of the pretty serious T that's already in place. for as under capacity as woodward is, there's thousands of riders a day traversing HP land...HP skirts our region's most mainline artery. it's not in the middle of cornfields. we could do ourselves a huge service by simply ramping up and supporting the T we ALREADY HAVE in place.
also also, we need to keep in mind some of the other forms of TOD, like BOD (not nec. applicable to detroit):
or POD
*to HP's credit, i know some good people worked on this project and had good intentions. it's also not as heinous as it could have been, e.g. if it had been responsible for demoing the streetwall buildings further south. |
Fishtoes2000
Member
Username: Fishtoes2000
Post Number: 745
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 11:32 am: | |
A strip mall may be better than empty fields, but an urban solution (as Danindc describes really well) is clearly best for the urban, walkable, bikeable environment. Given HP's position, they likely had a beggars mentality and accepted a suburban design rather than an optimal urban design. |