  Ocean2026 Member Username: Ocean2026 Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2008 |
Detroit is ranked pretty low for air quality but is it the same in all parts of the city? Would the areas across from Belle be the same as Wayne State or the Southwest parts of town? One of the good things about loss of manufacturing and population is that traffic and air quality improve - Buffalo is a prime example. Any thoughts? What is the prevailing wind direction? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2045 Registered: 04-2006 |
/remove double post/ (Message edited by Detroitplanner on December 07, 2008) | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2046 Registered: 04-2006 |
No air quality is different throughout the region. PM 0.025 is a serious problem in the area around the Rouge Plant, but it is not a problem anywhere else. This is chiefly due to the concentration of steel mills and other heavy industries. Wind is mostly from W to E. Around Buffalo (I assume you mean the street/neighborhood and not the City across the lake), you are sometimes downwind from the garbage incinerator, which while has some excellent scrubbers can occasionally burn an irritant because people throw out all sorts of stuff they are not supposed to like batteries or paint. It is not the fault of the equipment, but rather the people understanding the process of what they can and should not dispose of in trash. | ||
Cub Member Username: Cub Post Number: 1009 Registered: 02-2007 |
Education is the key. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1066 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:I don't know that I agree with that. Trash incineration is a nasty process regardless. There is no way to make that crap sweet-smelling or healthy to breathe. You couldn't pay me enough to live downwind of that thing, and judging by the condition of the neighborhood where most of the fumes end up, I'm not the only one who thinks that. I've had my window open a few times when the wind was blowing east to west, and that's all the putrid burnt-trash smell I need for the rest of my life, thanks. | ||
Bosch Member Username: Bosch Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2008 |
I feel sorry for that part of Windsor downwind of Zug, Rouge and D. Sewage Plant. I saw an old map with a village called Sandwich, bet it no longer exists. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2047 Registered: 04-2006 |
Quite a few buildings in Sandwich still exist and are incorporated into the City of Windsor. Incineration is not a perfect process, but it is better than burying garbage. I can remember in the old days when every school had an incinerator and every steel plant was spewing smoke in the air. Things are worlds better now than then. The best thing to do is to recycle just about everything, but the City does not make that easy. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1072 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:Because the same stuff that is easy to recycle is also easy to burn. Take out the recyclables, and incineration is so inefficient as to be completely impractical. I'd be interested to know what the rationale is for your statement that "incineration is better than burying garbage." When garbage is incinerated, that does not keep it from having to be buried, it just means you are burying a smaller volume of far more toxic substances, and in the process you are releasing many more toxins into the air. It is also expensive. About the only advantage of incinerating garbage is that it produces steam and a small amount of electricity, but there are less toxic ways of doing that. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2048 Registered: 04-2006 |
the more you bury, the more land you need. landfills have huge issues such as leeching. They also remove prime farming land as landfills are optimally found in flat areas with clay bases. I explained the context for burying. We are still burying a lot less stuff then we used to. Granted it is concentrated in the one spot. But there are scrubbers on the system, and while the scrubbers are not perfect, it is much better than it used to be. If you can remember what the air looked like in the 60's and 70's, particularly downriver you would know what I am speaking of. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1073 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:...which are only made worse when the landfills contain highly toxic incinerator ash instead of sausage rinds and old sofas. quote:The effect of scrubbers is essentially to transfer toxins from the air to the ash that gets buried. An improvement if you live near the incinerator (although still far from an acceptable living situation for anyone with the option of living elsewhere), not so much if you live near where all that crap gets dumped. The real problem with incineration, though, is what I alluded to above--it precludes the development of a recycling program. Recycling and incineration cannot coexist. Incinerators depend on flammable recyclables to make the other stuff burn. Recycling is profitable, incineration is expensive. Recycling is good for the environment, incineration is detrimental. To me, it's a fairly obvious choice. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6509 Registered: 10-2003 |
Burning trash is not better than burying it. How ridiculous. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2049 Registered: 04-2006 |
Bear you are way off from the main question asked, being that is air quality the same in all neighborhoods. I explained that some areas have worse AQ than others, and gave a couple of examples. You're questioning my symantics and I am not in disagreement with what you are saying. Lmich, it depends upon what you use for your factors in determining what is better. I simply tried to point out that there are some serious land use problems involved in burying large amounts of trash that need to be factored in. In addition, trash needs to be hauled places to be buried causing lots of particulate matter, ozones, and other hydrocarbons to be dispelled by diesel engines, those should be factored into an analysis for burn vs buried as well. Financially, there are also considerations that need to be taken into account, unfortunately Detroit is not in the position to do anything but the least cost method. I am not in disagreement that there are serious issues in burning trash but the air is considerably cleaner than it was 40 years ago, people seem to forget that there has been a lot of progress made. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5503 Registered: 02-2005 |
I would imagine that the NW side of town is the cleanest, and there's a line you can draw from Rouge/Zug through downtown/midtown to the NE corner of Wayne County including HW/GP. This typical southwest wind flow carries all the particulates from the downriver plants, and the incinerator. I've wondered about how much the Poletown and Jefferson North plants pollute, but I don't think they are a big deal. As for traffic based-pollution, and the M-59 and Telegraph Rd. suburbs are as bad as/worse than any Detroit neighborhoods. I think incineration of trash is much more dangerous than landfilling, especially considering some of the more sophisticated measures that can be taken in landfilling today. Metro Detroit does not have the most intensely-used land...there are definitely places to put trash. Contrast this with the NY Metro, where the NJ swamp has long been the designated place to put all the trash...you'll have some leaching problems if you dump trash in a marsh for 200 years. But see this interesting link on how it can be managed and kept clean(er): http://www.njmeadowlands.gov/e g/waste/intro.html That commission has full land-use control over the meadowlands, and funds itself by, you guessed it, running the landfills. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2051 Registered: 04-2006 |
Since the 70's the feds have hit the auto companies with stringent air quality regulations. In 1991 ISTEA was linked to the CAA amendments. This helped to reduce the amount of non-point pollutants further. The point sources are increasingly becoming the major source for pollution. Another big source surprisingly are things such as lawn mowers, weed whippers, chain saws, and ORVs. The following documentation will provide you with some information about current air quality in the area, as well as plans/policy issues that need to be adressed to show further decreases. http://michigan.gov/documents/ deq/deq-aqd-air-reports-06AQRe port_216544_7.pdf http://library.semcog.org/Inma gicGenie/DocumentFolder/Passen gerVehiclesAndAirPollution2008 .pdf I personally chose to buy a weed whipper and chain saw as corded because I knew that where I use them the most, the energy supplied is either from nuclear or hydro. When I replaced my last lawn mower, I still chose the gas powered only because I could not find an electric one that was chordless. Note that chordless lawn mowers would be far more portable than gas powered, and easier to store in basements (away from the crackheads who seem to like to break into garages). Chorded electrics are terrible if you have trees. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5504 Registered: 02-2005 |
Good point, using electric instead of gas appliances/tools is always cleaner for your neighborhood per se, but it's cleaner for the world as a whole if your power-provider's source is also clean. Do they not make lawn mowers with chargeable batteries (e.g. like an electic car?) yet? The cord are always such a hassle. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2052 Registered: 04-2006 |
The lawn mowers are vailable, but you have to order them over the internet. Being that the technology is relatively new and shipping costs for a large package are not cheap, its best to buy from a trusted non-internet dealer though there are none for this type of mower as of yet. Corded mowers would not work for me at all. My lot in N Michigan has about 40 trees on it and is about a half acre. My source of power there is the Au Sable River. I would need one long chord and it would continously get caught up by the trees. I did however have some success this summer because I have a non-chorded electric weed whipper and a rotary mower which served well for that task. | ||
Rfban Member Username: Rfban Post Number: 313 Registered: 02-2004 |
Just came across this today looking for obscure Motown 45's, fairly relevant: Youtube video on Belle Isle in 1950 (towards the end you can actually see the amount of particulates in the air). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =tvNgVbTXS5M&feature=related | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 564 Registered: 04-2008 |
Ocean2026, there is a study being done by the EPA on the air quality in Detroit. It's a bit technical, but it may answer some of your questions. http://www.epa.gov/dears | ||
Ocean2026 Member Username: Ocean2026 Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2008 |
thanks - it was hard to get those monitoring stations but probably safe to say the air is cleaner say in the Marina or Berry subdivision than on the west side of town. |
