  Big_baby_jebus Member Username: Big_baby_jebus Post Number: 19 Registered: 09-2008 |
Next time your states are ravaged by a hurricane, I will be sure to lobby for to federal aid to be denied. After all, these hurricanes and natural disasters are sure to continue, so it makes no sense to continue to spend money on a state that is doomed to failure with no plan to stop these disasters. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8990 Registered: 10-2003 |
Also, the war is over, you lost, get over it. | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 5017 Registered: 04-2005 |
We shouldn't send our utility work crews down there to help them get their power back up. After all, those are union workers and Shelby doesn't like the union. Our taxes go to rebuild the casinos and beach front in Biloxi, Mississippi every damned time they have a hurricane, not to mention rebuilding NOLA, which is below sea level, and shouldn't be located where it is anyway. | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 449 Registered: 12-2007 |
BBJ, With that post, it makes the first two parts of your username sound right on the money. Yeah, you're bitter. Get on with it. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 1726 Registered: 11-2006 |
I agree Big Baby and Jcole and Johnlodge. Otter, you are a mess. Hadn't even thought about this slant on things. Does Shelby even get it? What's his beef? | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 605 Registered: 08-2007 |
Here's what they think about the auto makers.... http://img410.imageshack.us/im g410/2262/hereswhatcx3.jpg | ||
Wykkidx Member Username: Wykkidx Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2004 |
BBJ Now that is a great idea. They think that we are not worth saving, no worries next hurricane they can rebuild their own houses without help. | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 452 Registered: 12-2007 |
Thanks, Kath. I try. | ||
Savannah Member Username: Savannah Post Number: 90 Registered: 02-2008 |
You are both right. Federal money is for roads and border security. sorry Al. Mi. La.Ms. | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 126 Registered: 04-2006 |
So Vitter would fillibuster this, but he didn't fillibuster the AIG bailout or the $700 billion package from September? | ||
Salvadordelmundo Member Username: Salvadordelmundo Post Number: 127 Registered: 04-2006 |
And, not to take the low road, but wasn't Vitter caught up in the Jean Palfrey call-girl sex scandal? I guess he knows a thing or two about whoredom. | ||
Mbshan Member Username: Mbshan Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2007 |
I say after they get their LOAN, use some of that money to retool a couple of factories and shut down any big three plants down there and bring those jobs back home!! | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 926 Registered: 05-2006 |
Time to send our National Guard down there to kick the south back in line. Is it too late to get our money that helped rebuild the south after thier last butt-kicking by the north? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 4984 Registered: 06-2004 |
These guys are trying to break the UAW by leveraging the foreign labor costs in the South against them. There has to be some way to flip this and get the union into those plants because you know damned well they won't continue to pay as much. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3864 Registered: 10-2003 |
Believe you me, they'll starte believing in social democracy when those Toyota and Honda plants start picking up to race to the next cheapest location to exploit. These fools can't be so stupid as to believe that Toyota and the like are going to stick around in the South forever, can they? And this time, it'll happen even faster than it did to Michigan because of how much more interconnected the world is now. You know, I don't much mind honest-to-goodness conservatives opposing this out of principle. What I do mind are those congress persons that show absolute joy in being dickish when speaking about the collapse of the domestic auto industry, and those who don't admit up front the short-term gain their areas would have and those who voted for the Wall Street bailout but have suddenly grabbed the purse strings. They made it personal with all of their gratuitous pot-shots at the industry and its workers. Because of this I say the UAW launch and all out war on the South, and use their resources to change the laws and unionize every damned last one of 'em, down there. We didn't start this war, but we'll sure as hell finish it, if they'd like. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 566 Registered: 06-2004 |
This whole experience has totally soured me on the idea of "America." We are not one nation. These people down south our no more our compatriots than Russia or China. America is a lie and the joke is on us after a century of contributing to the vast cofers of the East and West Coasts. | ||
Philbo Member Username: Philbo Post Number: 60 Registered: 09-2008 |
I read recently that China was locating some of its businesses to VIETNAM for lower labor costs! Think about that Alabama! Don't get too smug. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1170 Registered: 12-2003 |
Here's a New Orleans Times-Picayune story about the Louisiana senator who helped kill the auto bailout. Great quote from the president of the Louisiana UAW local where there's a GM plant, in part, "Vitter would rather pay a prostitute than an auto worker." http://www.nola.com/news/index .ssf/2008/12/vitter_faulted_fo r_derailing_a.html | ||
Daddeeo Member Username: Daddeeo Post Number: 341 Registered: 09-2008 |
Just remember that pay backs are a bitch. Those guys are making a big mistake. | ||
Scooter2k7 Member Username: Scooter2k7 Post Number: 166 Registered: 10-2007 |
BBJ you are 100% correct my friend. I said in 2005 after Katrina hit not to spend any money on rebuilding New Orleans. They sit below sea level, they will be underwater again. Man vs Nature: nature always wins. I do not feel sorry for these morons who lose their homes to hurricanes, not one bit of sorrow. The Southerners whining for money after a hurricane hits is like the people of Alaska bitching that it is cold all the time. | ||
Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989 Post Number: 143 Registered: 06-2008 |
I don't really understand what any of this has to do with the Civil War. That was 150 years ago. If we shouldn't rebuild places that are in an area prone to disasters, then we can't build along the Gulf Coast. We can't build in Southern California since they have like a 97% chance of another big one in the next couple years. People will always rebuild. | ||
Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989 Post Number: 144 Registered: 06-2008 |
I don't understand what any of this has to do with the Civil War, which was 150 years ago. | ||
Alan55 Member Username: Alan55 Post Number: 2459 Registered: 09-2005 |
Leannam: "If we shouldn't rebuild places that are in an area prone to disasters.... People will always rebuild." Quite true, Leannan. What I think you are failing to distinquish, however, is whether "they" rebuild, or "we" (the taxpayers) rebuild. If people want to build their houses on the water's edge on the Gulf Coast, knowing that in 15 to 20 years that they will be washed away in a hurricane, that's fine. If Californians want to buld near the San Andreas fault, knowing that there is a great chance of total destruction, also fine. What isn't acceptable, however, after their homes are destroyed, is expecting the U.S. (i.e. Michigan) taxpayers to assume the burden for THEIR arrogance and stupidity and use federal money to help them rebuild in places that should have never been built on in the first place. No one would offer to pay to rebuild your home here if you were foolish enough, and conniving enough, to build it on a 20-year flood plain. People would just say, "You did a stupid thing, suffer the consequences." This is doubly true for commercial ventures like casinos and other ventures. I don't see those Gulf Coast casinos in good times saying, "Hey Michigan taxpayers, let's share some of the revenue that we're bringing in." | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2080 Registered: 12-2005 |
I received the following in a chain e-mail that was enthusiastically circulated in Alabama and Tennessee before finding its way to my inbox. The un-named, proud parents of Mr. Greg Knox started the chain e-mail. Their son apparently wrote this as a letter to the editor of a newspaper in Ohio and it was triggered by the message that Troy Clark sent to GM employees. If Mr. Knox hadn't referenced Troy Clark's recent e-mail, you would think that it was actually written 25 years ago based on all of the outdated myths and criticisms it contains. By the way, Mr. Knox's company is a distributor of machine tools made in Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. ------------------------------ Abridged letter from Troy Clarke, President of General Motors - followed by a response from our son, Gregory Knox: Dear Employee, Next week, Congress and the current Administration will determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis......................As an employee, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard. Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support. Troy Clarke President General Motors North America ------------------------------ From Gregory Knox, In response to your request to call legislators and ask for a bailout for the United States automakers please consider the following, and please also pass this onto Troy Clark, the president of General Motors North America for me. You are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has bred like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new "messiah" to wave his magical wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream"… The dream is over! The dream that we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities…and that still the masses will line up to buy our products Don't tell me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford,GM ,Chrysler,TRW,Delphi,Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's and Tier ones for 3 decades now throughout the Midwest and what I've seen over the years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting. Mr Clark, the president of General Motors, states: There is widespread sentiment in this country, our government and especially in the media that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management. It is not… You're right – it's not JUST management…how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass…so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time…for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour week How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics…for putting out too many parts on a shift…and for being too productive (mustn't expose the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?) Do you really not know about this stuff?!? How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea: over the last few years …we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors. What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!? Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them? The K car vs. the Accord? The Pinto vs. the Civic?!? Do I need to go on? We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades. Time to pay for your sins, Detroit . I attended an economic summit last week where a brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money". Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems, but despite what people like George Bush and Troy Clark would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day… and something else would happen…where there had been greedy and sloppy banks new efficient ones would pop up…that is how a free market system works…it does work…if we would let it work… But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work – that we need the government to step in and "save us"…save us, hell – we're nationalizing…and unfortunately too many of this once fine nations citizens don't even have a clue that this is what's really happening…but they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams…yeah – THAT'S important… Does it occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades now in this country?... How can that be??? Let's see… Fuel efficient… Listening to customers… Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul… Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr W Edwards Deming 4 decades ago. Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma plans… Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"… Efficient front and back offices… Non union environment… Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know in their hearts I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into – my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did at their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) – I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work them through. Radical concept, huh… Am I there for them in the wings? Of course – but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad news people – it's coming whether we like it or not The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away" I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the vote count was tallied…"we might not do it in a year…or in four…" where was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for the office Stop trying to put off the inevitable … That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000… People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits… That job driving that forklift for the big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year… We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe… That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home… Let the market correct itself people – it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it is a nation that appreciates what is has…and doesn't live beyond its means…and gets back to basics…and redevelops the work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world…and probably turns back to God. Sorry – don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news" Gregory J Knox President Knox Machinery, Inc. Franklin, Ohio 45005 | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3901 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, there you have it. The Big Three are the worst run corporations in America, hands down. But, really, what I see are a lot of bitter, personal-anecdoates filled rant with few facts. What I don't see is the comparison of the cost between a funeral for the Big Three or the allocation of a bridge loan. Hey, if Mr. Knox is against helping private companies with public money, that's one thing. But, I'm not sure of an American alive who jumps with joy and squeals like a school girl when they hear the word "bailout". In the real world, though, our entire lives are a series of damage controls and risk managements. Unfortunately for Knoxy and the rest of us, the question doesn't end at "do you like bailouts", no matter how badly we want to end the questioning there. Perhaps, if the Big Three were failing in normal times, the argument that management is mostly and and directly responsible for their failure would be a rather hard one to refute, and arguing for a bailout wouldn't be so prudent. Unfortunately, that's not the case, here. The fact of the matter is that while none of us were happy with the performance of the Big Three, lately, the companies weren't anywhere near immenent isolvency. The truth is that the worst thing that was happening to GM was that it had, or was, falling from #1 to #2 in the number of cars sold/produced. Their current insolvency crisis is almost purely a result of the worst economic recession we've had in 50 years, even for as lackluster as management was. (Message edited by lmichigan on December 15, 2008) | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2081 Registered: 12-2005 |
Here is my "reply all" to the sixteen folks (all "down south") who were on the receiving end of that chain e-mail - after two days, still not a peep from any of them. Unfortunately, the e-mail address of Mr. Knox's parents no longer remained on the chain. Sharp-eyed observers here on DY will recognize portions of my reply as having been recycled from an earlier post here on DY. =================== While I share your concern over the trillions of dollars that Congress has turned over to the Treasury Secretary in the form of a blank check to use as he sees fit, we should be equally critical of the corporate welfare at the state level where billions of taxpayer dollars have been given with "no strings attached" to foreign-based manufacturers to induce them to build auto assembly plants in states such as Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, Mississippi and Alabama. Where is the outrage about that? Personally, I think Sen. Shelby's successful politicization and defeat of the bridge loan for GM, Ford and Chrysler will end up backfiring on his constituents. By forcing that showdown with the UAW on Thursday night, you can be sure there will be a payback attempt that will result in the successful unionization of many, if not all, of the remaining non-unionized auto plants within the next 12 months. The "Employee Free Choice Act" is a "lead pipe cinch" to be passed by the new Congress in 2009 and signed by President Obama. Under the provisions of this act, union organizers will have the ability by law to much more easily unionize a workplace. The cause of the current housing, credit and financial crisis can be laid at the feet of our incompetent members of Congress. There should have never been the need to "bail out" anyone on Wall Street, Main Street or the Detroit-based auto manufacturers. In my opinion, the financial bind that the Detroit-based auto manufacturers find themselves in right now is more due the incompetence and arrogance of the Federal Reserve and their Congressional overseers than it is due to the auto manufacturers themselves. It was the Fed who first proposed the lowering of mortgage credit requirements and it was Congress who told their buddies at the GSEs (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) to promote them, which they did and made a mint off them (while donating some of it back to their overseers that sit on the Congressional oversight committees). Risk was minimal since home values will always continue to appreciate, right? Besides (wink, wink), everybody knows that the GSEs are backed by the full faith and credit of the US Government. It was the Fed (with the complicity of the members of the Fed's Congressional oversight committees) who further helped the housing bubble expand with its monetary policy that gave us negative real interest rates from 2002 into 2005. It was the Fed who mistakenly thought that the credit panic in August 2007 could be simply addressed by supplying liquidity instead of supplying public capital and numerous guarantees to the financial system. The Fed persisted with this liquidity approach for 11 more months, without success. The result of the Fed's misguided liquidity approach was to send the price of oil and the dollar-euro exchange rate on a 14 month roller coaster ride, during which the credit markets froze solid and Congress did nothing. We were told that the rising price of oil was just due to China and India getting their fair share of oil, and that we Americans should just "get used to it". Consumers started "getting used to it" by exhibiting a structural shift in demand in the automotive sector towards higher-mileage vehicles. Auto manufacturers responded by shifting production capacity and shuttering plants in late 2007 and 2008. Then the bubble finally burst in the third quarter of 2008, the financial system began its melt-down and Congress reacted by giving the Treasury Secretary a blank check to reverse it. Yet the credit markets remain frozen, businesses still can't get the short term loans they need to operate day-to-day, consumers still can't get car loans, consumers are too afraid to trust the favorable impact to their budget from the falling price of oil to make big-ticket purchases........... ALL of the foreign and Detroit-based domestic auto manufacturers got whipsawed by Congress and the Fed's ineptitude, yet some of the same morons in Congress have the gall to tell the most vulnerable of our auto manufacturers to deal with it on their own and take Chapter 11 if they cannot - while at the same time covering for their GSE buddies and making sure that their Wall Street friends get what they need without any questions asked. Maybe (hopefully) Congress will end up saving the US financial system with the Wall Street bailouts, but the irony will be that there won't be much of a need for the US financial system over the next ten years if the Detroit automakers go bankrupt and take this country into a deep depression. Even the foreign-based auto manufacturers in the US will be vulnerable in the short term as the suppliers they share with the Detroit-based manufacturers also go bankrupt. If you are planning to buy a car in the next couple of years, do it now because once the Detroit-based auto manufacturers pass from the scene, auto prices will never be this low again! Listening and reading all of the negative commentary about the Detroit-based automakers over the past few weeks, I'm amazed at all of the outdated, stereotyped and even false claims being bandied about, including some in the e-mail you distributed. Speaking from my 31 years experience as an engineer and manager for General Motors, GM has been continually reducing headcount and structural costs since 1992, while at the same time they have been continually increasing product quality. GM has been in a restructuring mode for the last 16 years, but cannot shed their structural costs fast enough to keep up with this latest collapse in auto sales from a 16 million annual rate two years ago to the current 10 million annual rate. Unfortunately, the auto worker unions couldn't be brought to see the need to make serious concessions until the 2007 contract, concessions which when (if?) fully implemented in 2010 will bring GM's labor cost down to within $3 per hour of those paid to the non-union auto workers in the south as compared to the current $22 per hour differential. I was part of the engineering and manufacturing team that won GM's first JD Power Gold auto quality award (way back in 1992 for the Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera) and GM's first JD Power Gold assembly plant award (which went to the Oklahoma City assembly plant way back in 1992 for having the highest quality of all North America assembly plants, including those of the foreign-based manufacturers like Toyota and Honda). One of the last projects I worked on before my "early retirement" in April 2002 was a team effort to identify an additional $2 Billion in structural cost reductions beyond what had already been planned over the years 2003-2004. The need for an additional $2 Billion of targeted cost reductions plus the many other "early retirements" besides my own were driven by the drastic reduction in sales in the immediate days following the 9/11 terrorist attacks and GM's high costs to subsidize the subsequent $0 Down, 0% financing "Keep America Rolling" campaign which helped to quickly restore nation-wide consumer confidence. It's too bad that GM is not in the financial position to be able to do something similar to help restore American consumer confidence now when we need it even more that we did in September 2001. Don't hold your breath waiting for Mercedes Benz, Honda, Hyundai or Toyota to step up to the plate. Sincerely, MikeG (Message edited by Mikeg on December 15, 2008) | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 432 Registered: 01-2008 |
That was a very well written post. Very informative in a succinct manner. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1171 Registered: 12-2003 |
DYes conservatives take note -- Detroit gets some sympathy from the NY Times' conservative columnist: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12 /15/opinion/15kristol.html | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 456 Registered: 12-2007 |
Alan55, What you seem to be saying is that the public _should_ pay to bail out GM, but _should not_ pay for, say, Katrina recovery. On what basis do you make that argument? The only one I can see is that you are pissed off that many people don't want to pay to bail out GM and are feeling spiteful. I suspect your real argument is that if the government helps them, it should help us too, and if it doesn't help us, it shouldn't help anyone else either. That's fine, but if so, why not make that argument directly? Care to clarify? | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1622 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: I wasn't aware charity was only provided to be reciprocated and I still fail to see how a disaster that takes lives is comparable. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1172 Registered: 12-2003 |
If you don't think the Great Depression took lives, you need to read some history. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 1890 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Thre's no way the UAW will have such easy success nearly overnight after a more than a decade of failures to organize in the south. EFCA might help but the results will be weak locals, many of which will fail to win contracts or to stay certified. | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 460 Registered: 12-2007 |
SJ, I can't tell if you're responding to me or to the Alan55's post. I am not arguing for or against what Alan55 seems to be saying - only trying to figure out what he really means, and what I read him to really say. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1624 Registered: 12-2003 |
It was just more of a statement that I didn't realize charity was only given to receive an equal or greater amount later. quote: Which history is that, the one that shows no sharp rise in deaths due to starvation or disease. The fact remains that people are comparing events that took lives to a company struggling to stay afloat. (Message edited by _sj_ on December 15, 2008) | ||
7miledog Member Username: 7miledog Post Number: 56 Registered: 03-2008 |
Dumbasses http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28 239475/ | ||
7miledog Member Username: 7miledog Post Number: 57 Registered: 03-2008 |
Sorry. Record-setting dumbasses. "Construction of the plant is about 90 percent complete, and Toyota will finish the building, Goss said. However, the installation of the factory’s equipment and machinery — “the most time-consuming” element of construction, he said — is delayed indefinitely." | ||
7miledog Member Username: 7miledog Post Number: 58 Registered: 03-2008 |
Hypocritical dumbasses. "Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour said at a news conference that the state has invested $200 million in the plant, while local governments have invested about $35 million. He said Toyota plans to work with state and local governments to mitigate extra costs caused by the delay." | ||
7miledog Member Username: 7miledog Post Number: 59 Registered: 03-2008 |
Confused dumbasses. "“While we definitely are disappointed (and) wish it wasn’t happening, we understand that these companies like Toyota have to operate in the private marketplace and have to do so successfully,” Barbour said." | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3910 Registered: 10-2003 |
7miledog, that all really could have went into one post. There is no need in making four consecutive posts like that. |
