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Gazhekwe
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Post Number: 2192
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bragaboutme, the red building with the pointy roof is a church with a beautiful rose window, at the corner of Woodward and Edmund Place. I couldn't read the sign and can't remember which church it is.
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Jcole
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Post Number: 1322
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Again, it's Historic First Congregational
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Gazhekwe
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Post Number: 2193
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found it:

First Presbyterian Church
Other Name: Ecumenical Theological Seminary

2930 Woodward Avenue
Detroit, MI 48201

National Register Date: December 19, 1979

About the First Presbyterian Church
Built by the oldest Protestant congregation in Michigan, the Romanesque-style church features a large square tower, corner turrets, and tall clerestory windows. In 1911, an adjoining ""church house"" was completed for educational and social activities. The congregation of the First Presbyterian Church of Detroit occupied the building for over one hundred years, but joined another congregation after membership began to decline in the mid-1980s. In 1990s, the Presbytery of Detroit has leased the space to house the Ecumenical Theological Seminary."

http://www.woodwardavenue.us/h eritage/churches/view/?id=101
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Jcole
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Post Number: 1323
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think First Presbyterian has a steeple like the church in the picture.
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Royce
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Post Number: 2637
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's amazing to me in that picture is that traffic flowed with no lane lines until you got to an intersection. Must have been awkward for drivers in the far left lane near the streetcar tracks always having to merge right at the intersections where there was a streetcar pick-up spot.
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Jcole
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Post Number: 1324
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, that is pretty wild. It's almost like a game of connect the dots down Woodward.
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Gazhekwe
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Post Number: 2194
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jcole, there is a picture of it on the site I posted. It's the church down past the Bonstelle on the same side of the street.
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Jman
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Post Number: 195
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe the Gazhekwe picture is the church across Woodward from Fyfes Shoes on Adams.
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Jcole
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Post Number: 1325
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was talking about the one closer in on the same side of the street across from the very long building on the right. The one with the taller steeple. Sorry
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Gazhekwe
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Post Number: 2195
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's on the corner of Edmund, a few blocks up from Adams. There are some beautiful churches in that whole stretch, Grand Circus up to I-94.
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Jcole
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Post Number: 1326
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the left foreground of the 1949 picture is the Cathedral Church of St. Paul-Episcopal. Just up the block is the church I was mentioning, First Congregation, then down past the
Bonstelle is the church you're referring to, the Woodward Ave. Presbyterian. Behind us there is the one Peachlaser asked about, Our Lady of the Rosary on Woodward at I94 and further up Woodward from that is the Catholic Blessed Sacrement Cathedral. There are numerous others interspersed all along Woodward, some still kept up, others in varying stages of decay
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 572
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Things were simpler back then (or so I'm told). Many believe that getting rid of some of the abundance of markings, signs, and laws, as well as giving bikes and pedestrians the right of way would require drivers to be more alert. Granted it would be much more stressful, but it might possibly be safer as well.

Crazy idea. There is actually a documentary that runs every so often on the subject on Windsor's public access. I'm not sure how I myself, personally feel about it. I'm still working up to an opinion on that one.
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Peachlaser
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Post Number: 187
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jcole!

I think it would be much easier to restore the streetcar system now while the density is missing. Get the system running while there is relatively little population to be disturbed during construction. The development will follow.

Thanks to folks on this board, I now know about the F-Line in SF. Will be there this summer so want to ride it on one of the historics.

Seeing Penske getting involved makes me believe that some big things are getting ready to happen down Woodward.
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Jcole
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Post Number: 1329
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Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bragaboutme,
Are you asking about the building far in the distance beyond the Bonstelle that looks to be about 12 stories high. If so, according to some info I found, that used to be the Hotel Savoy, then the Hotel LaSalle and then the Detroiter, ending its life as Carmel Hall nursing home.
If you're asking about the fancy looking one just past the pointy green capped church steeple in the foreground, I haven't yet been able to find out what it was. It's a Church's Fried Chicken, now.
It may have been the Forest Theater 4635 Woodward Ave

(Message edited by jcole on May 29, 2008)

(Message edited by jcole on May 30, 2008)
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Bragaboutme
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Post Number: 256
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jcole, Thats the building, and it has its place in history too. There was a Jax car wash next to it 1 dollar a wash.

http://www.time.com/time/magaz ine/article/0,9171,739981,00.h tml

And it's demise.

http://www.implosionworld.com/ carmelhall.html

Thanks Gazhekwe, but there are two churches both corners, one still in use, one seems like it's abandoned which one is which?
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Jcole
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Post Number: 1335
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brag, the abandoned one seems to be the Cathedral of Praise Baptist church. It's the one on the southeast corner.
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Mikem
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Post Number: 3640
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The long building in question on the west side of Woodward was Convention Hall, predecessor to Cobo Hall. The front was on Cass Avenue.
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Jcole
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Post Number: 1336
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Mikem. Another piece of the puzzle filled in.
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Homer
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Post Number: 292
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Need me some of that "Mohawk Sloe Gin" for the weekend.
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Jcole
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Post Number: 1338
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I saw that sign. Times have changed
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Jcole
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Post Number: 1339
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brag, The abandoned church on Woodward at Edmond Place on the SE corner was originally the First Congregational Unitarian Church.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2377
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, looking at the point where Woodward Avenue "curves" near the Whitney gives you an idea of the street widening at took place in the 1920s. Originally, Woodward was, at some points, an extremely narrow road. What they did was bulldoze all the stuff on the west side of Woodward south of the Whitney, and bulldoze everything on the east side of Woodward north of the Whitney. If you squint, you can see the original, pre-1920s dimensions of Woodward.
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Rustic
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Post Number: 3251
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

in the original photo check out the bill boards ... nice ...

I'm drinkin whiskey
You're drinkin gin
with the two togther we're bound to win ...

Yay Detroit!
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Mdoyle
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Username: Mdoyle

Post Number: 420
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder if the building that is adjacent to where Utrecht now is on Warren still exists under the wood cladding that makes up the side of Utrecht and Subway. Also looks like a couple of nice little storefronts where the Hannan House now is.
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Gazhekwe
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Post Number: 2199
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There were lots of little storefronts there in the 60s. Gow's Little Acre, an import/gift shop, Johnny's restaurant, a bookstore. Imports weren't that common then.
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Ray1936
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Post Number: 3198
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You can also see the results of street widening on Michigan. From downtown to 14th, the buildings on the south side of the street were demolished for widening. From 14th to the Boulevard, the north side was taken.

As a result, all the Victorian buildings on Michigan from downtown to 14th are on the north side of the street; with the opposite true for 14th to W. Grand Boulevard.
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Chris_rohn
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Post Number: 450
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The vortex seems to have been there even in 1942:

1942vortex.jpg
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 2390
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, no! The vortex! That's explains it! One of these days, I'm going to put up a 200-foot ladder and climb into the wormhole to 1942, just in time to stop the race riot! :-)
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Retroit
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Post Number: 168
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd like to revisit the "number of lane" discussion (or argument!) from earlier. I'm either very poor at math or I'm missing something.

The 1942 photo shows 10 effective lanes: 1 parking, 3 driving, 2 streetcar, 3 driving, 1 parking. The lanes approaching the intersection are marked for 3 lanes, so parking was either prohibited within a certain distance of the intersection or there really were only supposed to be only 2 driving lanes and drivers squeezed in an extra lane.

Our 2008 Woodward has 7 effective lanes: 1 parking, 2 driving, 1 left turn, 2 driving, 1 parking.

If light rail is added, we'd have 6 effective lanes: 1/2 parking (useless), 2 driving, 2 light rail, 2 driving, 1/2 parking (useless). I suppose the light rail could be off-center and we could have parking on one side, to the consternation of businesses on the other side of the street.

Now, can someone tell me what I'm missing? How come we had 10 lanes in 1942, but if light rail were built today, we'd have only 6?
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Detroitnerd
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Post Number: 2391
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lanes are larger today? Just an idea ... anybody remember how narrow they were on old Davison? Sometimes you'd almost clip handles with people next to you!
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Bragaboutme
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Post Number: 257
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm young but I think you both are right. I remember the Davidson before the expansion the lanes were more narrow than now and I remember a lot of pot holes.

Ok Retroit, I agree with the amount of lanes standing at 7 and 6 effective. So the question is what do you do with the 1/2's. You will need parking on woodward, and they would be too big for a bike lane, so what would be a good solution.
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Bragaboutme
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Post Number: 258
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And to the abandoned church, I just passed by today and there's someone occupying the steps. I was going to ask him about this historical structure, but didn't want to disturb his slumber.

Another Mystery solved, thanks all.
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Retroit
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Post Number: 170
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah, I guess nothing can escape inflation, even lane width!
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Jcole
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Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brag, here's a link that has pictures of the inside of the abandoned church.
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Russix
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Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The sun is setting in the west. It could be close to 5 o'clock and people are loading up streetcars to leave downtown, therefore more outbound streetcars then inbound. Just a guess...
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Royce
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 3:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Redetroit, from West Grand Boulevard heading south to just south of the Fisher Freeway, Woodward has nine lanes: 6 driving, 2 parking, and the left turn lane. I noticed in the old picture that there are traffic lanes marked off by yellow lines on the side of Woodward where people boarded the streetcars, but there are no lanes where there isn't a streetcar stop. That might also explain why there appears to be 10 lanes. People just drove closer together it appears.

BTW, notice that Forest (2nd street south of Warren) is a two-way in 1942.

(Message edited by royce on July 01, 2008)
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Retroit
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Royce, I should have done more research! I still wonder how the narrower sections of Woodward will be able to cope with only 2 travel lanes in each direction and (presumably) no parking, especially considering that the purpose for light rail is to accomodate the MASSIVE flow of people.
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Quinn
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 3:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OMG this is one of the coolest things I've seen in a while. How awesome is that. Looks like it could've been taken with modern equipment. Fantastic!
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Royce
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No problem, Retroit. Now, if you look south near Mack Avenue by the Bonstelle Theater you can see an inbound streetcar.
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Bearinabox
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The 1942 photo shows 10 effective lanes: 1 parking, 3 driving, 2 streetcar, 3 driving, 1 parking.

I'm not seeing the 10 lanes. I count 1 parking, 2 driving, 2 streetcar, 2 driving, 1 parking for a total of eight. Close to the intersections/streetcar stops, the innermost driving lane approaching the intersection is marked for left turns and the parking lane in the same direction becomes a driving lane. Two streetcar lanes plus a boarding platform must've translated into two driving lanes and one left turn lane, and then as now the parking lanes function as right turn lanes at major intersections.
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Burnsie
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quinn wrote, "Looks like it could've been taken with modern equipment."

It was shot on large-format Kodachrome, a beautiful and extremely high-quality technique that's unfortunately dead. Kodachrome is only sold (where you can find it) in 35mm now. But 35mm Kodachrome easily still beats digital in quality.
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Retroit
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bearinabox, if you look about halfway up the first block and count the number of cars/streetcars abreast, you get 10, hence 10 "effective" lanes.
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Focusonthed
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Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Woodward could easily be a 4 driving-lane (total) road, with turn lanes. The traffic counts are astoundingly low, somewhere in the 30,000/day range at the highest, less than 20,000/day until well past (North of) New Center. These traffic counts are less than Gratiot north of M-59, which is 4 lanes with a left turn lane.

Fears of traffic jams on Woodward are greatly exaggerated.
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Bearinabox
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Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 1:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Woodward could easily be a 4 driving-lane (total) road, with turn lanes.

That's essentially what it is now, except for the sections from the Fisher to the Boulevard and from Manchester to Ferris in Highland Park. From the DTOGS renderings, it looks like the parking lanes in the narrower areas would be removed, though.
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Pythonmaster
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Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 5:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First Congregational

http://www.flickr.com/photos/j ustbeamensch/132814641/sizes/l /in/set-72157594143593544/

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